Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Actually I would say what the mother said. That is the logical thing to say. There is no plant yet. Just a seed that has not germinated. i think we have different views on this. More importantly I will think nothing about uprooting plants in the gardens I own if I feel like it. I am also confused about your plant examples. What's wrong with killing and eating plants? They are devoid of consciousness or even rudimentary minds. We are animals. We feed on other lifeforms, even if they are plants.
It's not about killing plants. It's an analogy. Once the plant starts germinating, I see no going back. I don't see a point of time when the plant all of the sudden becomes special to me. It starts when I plant the seed, grow it, it blooms, and how I give the remains back to the earth. Unfortunately, in America, we aren't too nature oriented in the city parts. In the rural and country, probably the same. The country parts are more people oriented. Just the same, I can't imagine that a child is beginning to germinate until a full body and someone just cuts his life short because he wasn't fertilized into a full grown "plant." My mind can't grasp that life can be defined. Everything is living whether by it moving by heat/energy or as many religions define energy as by our spirits. The same as plants, animals, and objects. Nothing is actually artificial. Everything comes from the earth. I believe everything is alive. When I eat, my prayers are to that the food nourish my body and like other spirits of my family, my environment live in me as I live in them. We don't eat plants until they are fully grown, though. Once you stop the process, how can you have a healthy crop to feed your family?
That depends on ones belief, though. I believe that our environment has moral claim as I have claim over it. I see no hierarchy in nature and myself. I'm not the center of the universe. I actually see better morals in nature than I do myself because nature isn't filtering itself with bias and influenced by other people's rights and wrongs. The growth of plants work by laws of nature-the blessings of the sun and workings of the moon for example. If we took care of our environment, and be gratitude for and to the food eat, we'd probably see killing a bit differently especially murder.Preserving forests and ecosystems is important both for the environment and for our own survival. But individual plants do not have any moral claims over us.
If they thought abortion was okay, they would have aborted her? That seems kind of harsh. But if this is how they believed then they would not think like me.
Yes. A lot of people feel if the child isn't going to long, has multiple health defects, and that can affect the mother, they abort the child. She says she owes her parents their lives for not going with their consideration to do so. Also, her Catholic faith has given her morals about this.
I have been friends with killers, rapists (that told me they are and what they have done), and people who committed crimes but in this case have mental illness as well (mental illness doesnt exnay the immoral action of murder). The reason I unfriended a couple is because they are in my immediate area and they tell me things they do in the present. There are long stories behind it; but, I don't believe in not being friends with someone based on their moral character. If that's the case, I understand why some christians (which there are some) who don't want to befriend or even support their homosexual friend because they equate sexual orientation (or to them behavior) with murder. So, it depends on the person.You say this. I am not so sure I believe it. But if it is true their are plenty of child killers and rapists who need a friend, and would not pose an issue of safety to you.
You have a flawed scenario here. The destruction of her seed is something we recognize as immoral. But this is not because of the value of the seed as life. If we were instead to have the little girl build a sand castle, we would have just as much of an immoral ring. If the girl had a stuffed animal and the person ripped it to shreds and the mother said now now, it wasn't actually living. We would see the same problem. All you have done is show that the destruction of something special (regardless of life) is something we tend to see as immoral.
That "destruction of something special" is the point. Life is special. Given it is immoral, that's a huge reason I dislike abortion. Why destroy something that always has started growing to be a full human being?
A man or a squirrel eating an acorn is not the same as falling a mighty oak. We do not hold funerals for spontaneous abortions. There is a difference between the emotional impact of miscarrying at 2weeks versus 8 months. And there is certainly a difference in the feeling of loss between losing a pregnancy at 4 weeks and losing a four year old. You can repeat that it is the same but I think that you are being dishonest with not only me but also yourself.
My disagreeing with you doesn't mean I am dishonest with myself or others. I notice I hold a lot of beliefs that arent the "common norm" of things. I think probably once a couple months I find I see life differently than what people consider the majority. I just find it strange.
My point is once you start to create life, it starts from conception, stopping that process is stopping the growth of an unborn child. I disagree with stopping this process.
Would you scoop a spontaneous abortion from the toilet and purchase a coffin and burial plot, or would you flush? How would you handle the remains of a five year old?
Abortions are fetus' that were already alive before they "Went into the toilet." As such, when you stop the process, and they are dead, why would I scoop up the remains of an horrible act? The five year old wouldn't be five years old if it were aborted after conception during its growth. I don't understand how the five-year old boy is related to abortion.