Abortion

[SkepticThinker]

But you don't think that the baby has any "right" to not have it at that time.


Love is an emotion. A caregiver can certainly care for a person without loving them. Usually love comes along when it comes to babies but there is no reason to think that love is necessary in order to take care of a baby. Not loving a baby doesn't mean the caregiver doesn't fulfill the baby's basic needs (unless love is counted as one).

Sure love is important, but lack of it doesn't automatically mean game over. And there are plenty of terrible mothers who do love their children.

If she doesn't take care of her baby's basic needs, then yes. Of course.

Google "oxytocin" and "pair bonding."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Women. They're pregnant women. I don't do anything to them. I say it's wrong of them to get themselves pregnant and then to abort because "they're not ready" or whatever.

It's never wrong for a woman to make a decision about her own life that affects her own life. She's the only person in the best position to be doing so. She's certainly in a better position than some random people on the internet who think they know what's best for someone else's life and health.

And last time I checked, nobody has been able to "get themselves pregnant" without another party involved.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am making this thread because I would like pro-choicers to help me better understand the pro-choice position.

My views....

1) The fetus is part of the mother, & not a separate being
until some stage of development to be determined by
society.....not an easy stage to agree upon.

2) Practically speaking, this stage should be after the
mother has had a reasonable amount of time to decide
whether to carry to term or abort.

3) In the case of a fetus destined to die during or shortly
after birth, or destined to life a life of woe due to defects,
abortion should be allowed after the usual decision stage.

4) One person should not be forced to undergo surgery
or other invasive bodily intrusion to save the life of, or to
benefit of another.
Just as no one should be forced to give up a kidney, neither
should one be forced to give birth.

5) Government lacks the wisdom to coerce birth by harsh
sanctions because medical conditions & decisions are far
too complex to be decided by legislators.

6) Banning abortions causes poverty, pain, & crime.

Abortion and Crime, Revisited - Freakonomics

Abortion and Crime, Revisited - Freakonomics

freakonomics.com

7) Banning abortion is primarily motived by religious beliefs.
Let those believers eschew abortions, but not impose their
faith upon others.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hmm.. wearing a necklace of genuine diamonds in a neighborhood that is known for muggings, robbery and other violence isn't a consent to being robbed. Certainly not, but is the person who does so acting intelligently?

Please, please, please stop victim blaming.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It affects me very much. I have to live in this world you know.

How does it personally affect you?

 

[Kathryn]

Well, I guess my true story about my 19-year-old single biracial daughter carrying a BABY who was supposed to be born with very undeveloped kidneys, who's baby was 1/4th African American, who was inundated by calls from White Christian women wanting to adopt the baby (I also got these calls for the record) got zero responses. It doesn't fit the narrative apparently.

 

[Pawpatrol]

A trans man is a trans man whether you like it or not

I recognize that much. I'm saying a trans man is not a man.

You opinion and you are entitled to it but others have different opinions and they are just as valid as yours

That's your opinion.

Only if he (can't be female) is born alive and lives for a period of time, possibly a months.

I don't know where you got that information from, but it is incorrect. An unborn child can inherit whether it's a male or a female. He or she has to be born alive, but there is no required period that he needs to live. Even if the child only takes one breath outside, it is sufficient for him to inherit.

I'm guessing that you have not done either of these things

I have done both. That's how I know.

Recently a 10 year old girl in Ohio was raped and became pregnant. State law forbid an abortion and forbid taking her to a place where she could haven an abortion. So yes she was being told she would have to have that child.

I have already addressed the issue of rape; it is permissable to have an abortion in that case.

And traditionally Christianity held that a soul didn't enter a body until birth when the first breath is drawn

They also weren't sure if women had souls at all.

Shall we abort the women from this world?

 

[Pawpatrol]

How does it personally affect you?

I couldn't possibly go through everything. I'll give one example: I raise children in this society and my children will be surrounded by women who don't know how to cover their bodies, how to keep their pants on or how to speak. My daughters would be at the grave danger of being influenced by such behaviour and my sons would be at the grave danger of, well, also being influenced by it.

 

[Pawpatrol]

Please, please, please stop victim blaming.

Just answer the question.

Would it be intelligent? Well? Would it?

 

[Pawpatrol]

That's how you raise a sociopath.

Nonsense. There is a huge difference between not loving someone and neglecting and abusing someone.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting people shouldn't love their babies (which they naturally do) or that babies shouldn't be loved. I'm just saying the poster who basically claimed a woman could abort her pregnancy because if she didn't love the child the child wouldn't survive anyway.

There are two problems with that assertion.

1. The baby could very well survive and turn out just fine.
2. How on earth could she knows she wouldn't love her baby? She couldn't know. Unless she was a psychopath, in which case she wouldn't be aborting out of consideration for the baby anyway.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't know where you got that information from, but it is incorrect. An unborn child can inherit whether it's a male or a female. He or she has to be born alive, but there is no required period that he needs to live. Even if the child only takes one breath outside, it is sufficient for him to inherit.

Bingo. I don't know about wills or life insurance or whatever, but if a person dies without a will, any person conceived before death is considered a person who can inherit.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I couldn't possibly go through everything. I'll give one example: I raise children in this society and my children will be surrounded by women who don't know how to cover their bodies, how to keep their pants on or how to speak. My daughters would be at the grave danger of being influenced by such behaviour and my sons would be at the grave danger of, well, also being influenced by it.

Who knows, she may even grow up rejecting the misogynistic nonsense of her parents.

 

[Pawpatrol]

Bingo. I don't know about wills or life insurance or whatever, but if a person dies without a will, any person conceived before death is considered a person who can inherit.

I don't know about the western laws either, but according to Islam it is permissable to testament 1/3 of wealth maximum, and that can't be to the legal inheritors.

 

[Pawpatrol]

Who knows, she may even grow up rejecting the misogynistic nonsense of her parents.

We call that following Satan.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

A transgender male is just that. Not a man.

Man and woman now have two definitions each. The original one is biological, the second definition psychological. A person is now appropriately called a man if he is biologically and psychologically male and if he is only psychologically male. He should not be called a man if he is a trans woman and doesn't like being called a man.

You don't have to use the words that way, but that's how others are using them. There's no dispute about what is true about any of those kinds of people, just what to call them. I prefer to call them by the words they prefer. It seems that you don't respect that. If so, why not? Why won't you follow the Golden Rule there? It's a matter of kindness, respect, and dignity.

No one is suggesting that women are told they have to have a child

Theocratic Christians are insisting that pregnant women have to have their child.

I raise children in this society and my children will be surrounded by women who don't know how to cover their bodies, how to keep their pants on or how to speak

You don't have a choice in that if you want to participate in that culture. Your children will see women in skimpy clothing on the streets, on the beach, and in the entertainment media.

And they will have access to Internet porn.

You and they will have to coexist with that unless you relocate a place like Iran or Saudi Arabia, where they share your values on modesty and chastity.

As mentioned before, a person only has rights once they are born.

That's by convention or agreement. It can change, just as the right to have an abortion can and has changed.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't know about the western laws either, but according to Islam it is permissable to testament 1/3 of wealth maximum, and that can't be to the legal inheritors.

In the US, it's law.

 

[Pawpatrol]

In the US, it's law.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Kathryn]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

What I said is the law in the US.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Bingo. I don't know about wills or life insurance or whatever, but if a person dies without a will, any person conceived before death is considered a person who can inherit.

No, not according to the site I found and you agreed with.
"
The child can also be counted if it was created with assisted reproduction. The child will be included if:

The decedent is the biological parent of the child (the sperm or egg of the decedent was used to create the child),
The child is born within 36 months of the decedent's death,
The decedent consented in writing before death to be a legal parent of any potential child created from their sperm or egg, and
The administrator of the estate receives a written notice with a copy of the decedent's written consent within six months of the decedent's death."

What happens when I die without a will?

Explains how an estate is divided if a person dies without a will.

www.illinoislegalaid.org

 

[SkepticThinker]

I couldn't possibly go through everything. I'll give one example: I raise children in this society and my children will be surrounded by women who don't know how to cover their bodies,

What's wrong with the human body? How much of their body do they need to cover, to meet your standards, exactly? Why are you afraid your daughters might see parts of a female body?

how to keep their pants on or how to speak.

This affects you personally .... how?

My daughters would be at the grave danger of being influenced by such behaviour and my sons would be at the grave danger of, well, also being influenced by it.

Raise them right, and you won't have to worry about "grave dangers" such as viewing human bodies that are similar to their own. My goodness, the horror!

Teach your sons about consent and you won't have anything to worry about. Teach your sons that just because someone is walking alone in a dark alley doesn't mean it's okay to attack them.




So how does someone else's ability to abort their pregnancy affect you very much? That's the topic under discussion.