About America And Guns.

[Scrooge]

. How dare you deny me my right to defend myself with such silly "what ifs".

Deny? Not quite....practice so the wrong one does not end up laying on the floor. If that is silly so be it.
If you think you need weapons I recommend a shotgun for home defense and hitting the range regularly with your handgun of choice.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ahhh...... responsible, lovely touch that.
Of the many goons and nuts that spoke about and wrote about arming Miss Wells in the 2nd year (or whatever) do you honestly think any of them could possibly be classed as sane, let alone responsible?
There was a post in the last month on RF that referred to such tactics, I seem to remember, but if you can't remember such crazy suggestions, then you can't.
Why don't you have a look about on google or something?


Yeah....... go on then, cite responsible gun control types who demand the death sentence for NRA members. Just for being members, mind you.
Yeah..... I would like to see that.

Of course, the difference between those gun-control-nuts and gun-nuts is that....... at least they can't shoot anybody. Much safer nuts.

You hadn't heard what your fellow gun control fan, Nancy, said?
Nancy Sinatra takes heat for saying NRA members 'should face a firing squad'

See....this exemplifies why it serves no useful purpose to quote every crazy gadfly.
Now, go forth, & sin no more.

 

[PureX]

Nope. That's the comfort in being well armed.

But that "comfort" is fantasy based. That's the point of this thread. It's the fantasy that having a gun makes us powerful and will free from the subjugation of others. When the truth is that having a gun in our homes makes us MORE likely to be killed by one, not less.

 

[PureX]

I have told myself that it is impossible to reason with someone who's mind is made up. However, when someone, like you, make a statement that is misleading or entirely false I have to challenge that person's statement. In the above statement you are responding to @Mindmaster statement "No one can buy assault weapons as of 1986, so this conversation is moot.".
Now his statement is not entirely correct. What he should have said is "if a fully automatic weapon was made after May 19th, 1986 you may not own it (unless you are a dealer), Now if it was manufactured prior to May 19th, 1986 you can if you follow the following laws.
To buy a machine gun under the 1934 NFA, an individual needs to submit the following (the procedure remains unchanged even today):

• Pay a tax of $200, which in 1934 was worth over $3,500
• Fill out a lengthy application to register your gun with the federal government BATF Form 4
  
• Submit photographs
• Submit passport photos
• Get your chief law enforcement official to sign your application exception to this requirement is as follows
  BATF allows Corporations to own automatic weapons, silencers and short barreled rifles without having to complete the law enforcement certification portion of the application.
  If you are the owner or officer of a corporation, the corporation may purchase these items and you, as an officer, may keep them in your home, almost the same as if the items were issued to you as an individual.
  You just have to remember that if the company dissolves for any reason, the weapons must be transferred out of the company to another individual, company, or firearms dealer.
  
• Wait for the results of your background check to come back

Also, there are three types of machine guns that determine the gun’s legal status:

Transferable: Guns registered prior to May 19th, 1986 that are able to be owned by everyone. There are only 182,619 transferable machine guns according to the ATF
Pre-Samples: Machine guns imported after 1968 but before May 19th, 1986. The 1968 GCA established that machine guns with no sporting purposes could not be sold to civilians. Dealers can however buy them and keep them after they give up their licenses. As a general rule, pre-samples cost about half that of a transferable.
Post-Samples: Machine guns made after the May 19th, 1986 cutoff date. These are only for dealers, manufacturers, military, and police. A manufacturer who pays $500 a year is permitted by the federal government to manufacture these. A dealer (who is not a manufacturer) may acquire these if a police agency provides a “demo letter”. A demo letter is simply a letter from a PD asking you to acquire a sample gun for them to test and evaluate for potential purchase. Unfortunately dealers must sell or destroy post samples when they give up their license.
In addition this is only the Federal Law, individual states have their own requirements or restrictions

Now you tell me were the "loopholes are" that make it easy to purchase a fully automatic firearm.
Oh by the way A violation of the national firearms act results in a felony punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison, a $100,000 fine, and forfeiture of the individual’s right to own or possess firearms in the future

Anyone can buy semi-automatic assault weapons until the cows come home. Then buy the necessary parts to convert them to fully automatic, online, at gun shows, and from their gun-nut buddies. Not that the semi-automatics with massive magazines aren't absurdly unnecessary, in themselves, as a "self-defense" weapon. If you need to shoot that many bullets that quickly to protect yourself from an armed intruder you really need to give up the guns all together, or invest in some serious professional targeting training.

You're blowing smoke, here, trying to minimize the absurdity of citizens owning guns that they have absolutely no deed of, except to fuel their G.I. Joe fantasies, or their desire to commit mass murder the moment armageddon provides them with the opportunity.

 

[esmith]

Anyone can buy semi-automatic assault weapons until the cows come home. Then buy the necessary parts to convert them to fully automatic online, at gun shows, and from their gun-nut buddies. Not that the semi-automatics with massive magazines aren't absurdly unnecessary, in themselves, as a "self-defense" weapon.If you need that many bullets to protect yourself from an armed intruder you really need to give up the guns all together, or invest in some serious professional targeting training.

You're blowing smoke, here, trying to minimize the absurdity of citizens owning guns that they have absolutely no deed of, except to fuel their G.I. Joe fantasies, or their desire to commit mass murder the moment armageddon provides them the opportunity.

Then they are breaking the law. You specifically said "loopholes", not illegal actions.

As far as the rest of your post, I do not care to get into a discussion with you or anyone else that uses confirmation bias to further their argument. If and when you ever deiced to present factual information into your argument I would be willing to enter into a discussion.

 

[PureX]

Then they are breaking the law. You specifically said "loopholes", not illegal actions.

A law with no means or will of enforcement is a pretty big "loophole" in it's intent, don't you think?

 

[oldbadger]

You hadn't heard what your fellow gun control fan, Nancy, said?

So, because a US star is for gun control you have decided that I am holding hands with her?
When you write stuff and nonsense like the above it is a sure fire 'tell' that you're on the ropes, Revolting.
Usually you are fairly calm on 'gun' threads, but recent ones? Doh!

See....this exemplifies why it serves no useful purpose to quote every crazy gadfly. Now, go forth, & sin no more.

Oh Yes it does!
Now let's see your other post........ dee-da-dee-da-dum.....

Have a link to any responsible proposal to arm all teachers & school bus drivers?

Remember? Now, for your joy and further education, if you type 'arm school teacher US' into jolly old google you will get about 25 million hits, but let's just plonk the first half dozen en-post for you. Mr Trump is there!
Get ready to hold hands... Revolting!
About 25,100,000 results (0.66 seconds)
Search Results
US gun laws: Colorado to arm teachers in classrooms - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40353408
21 Jun 2017 - Teachers were taken to a shooting range in Weld County, near Denver, ... to "allow teachers, administrators, and other personnel to stop school ...
Trump: Arm teachers to stop school massacres - CNNPolitics - CNN.com
edition.cnn.com/2015/10/03/politics/donald...shooting-armed-teachers/index.html
4 Oct 2015 - Trump: Armed teachers could have stopped Oregon massacre. ... Washington (CNN)Donald Trump said Saturday that had teachers been armed at Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Oregon, the deadly shooting there this week would not have been as tragic. Trump has previously cited mental ...
Across the country, school districts are quietly arming teachers for the ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../across-the-country-school-districts-are-quietly-armi...
14 Apr 2016 - These incidents, and every school shooting in between, have sent ... Hook as the kind of event that they hope armed teachers could prevent.
Would Arming Teachers And Students Really Have Prevented A ...
www.popsci.com/science/article/.../could-arming-teachers-and-students-prevent-trage...
19 Dec 2012 - Would Arming Teachers And Students Really Have Prevented A Tragedy? ... After Friday's shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, a spokesman ... guns: For one, people might enter an environment they'd normally avoid.
Guns and teachers: Would arming educators prevent mass shootings ...
idahostatejournal.com › Members
20 Oct 2015 - Mass shootings at schools and college campuses have led to a discussion of the wisdom of arming teachers in hopes of preventing the attacks ...
School Shootings: Arming Teachers Isn't the Answer | TIME.com
ideas.time.com/2012/12/21/viewpoint-arming-teachers-isnt-the-answer/
21 Dec 2012 - (MORE: Sandy Hook Shooting: The Speculation about Adam Lanza Must Stop). It's important to keep in mind ... If arming teachers isn't the answer, what can schools do to minimize the risk of violence? Although much work ...
Colorado to arm teachers in classrooms to prevent incidents of mass ...
www.firstpost.com › India News
22 Jun 2017 - Teachers in Colorado are being trained to use guns, which they will be ... to carry in classrooms to fire back in the event of a school shooting.
Arm Teachers To Stop Shootings - WSJ
www.wsj.com/articles/SB927233749927433053
21 May 1999 - But one of the few immediate steps that could stop killers in the school yard is deemed beyond the pale. I'm referring to arming schoolteachers.
Gun rights advocates: Arm our teachers to help stop school shootings ...
www.salon.com/.../gun_rights_advocates_arm_our_teachers_to_help_stop_school_sh...
18 Dec 2012 - Gun rights activists have a wild solution for school shootings — and it's ... gun rights activists and state lawmakers: Arm all of the teachers.
'It's not the guns': Donald Trump says arming teachers and students ...
www.dailymail.co.uk/.../It-s-not-guns-Donald-Trump-says-arming-teachers-students-s...
3 Oct 2015 - Donald Trump launched a well-worn defense of gun control laws tonight; Said arming students and teachers would help stop school shootings ...

 

[Revoltingest]

But that "comfort" is fantasy based. That's the point of this thread. It's the fantasy that having a gun makes us powerful and will free from the subjugation of others.

This is often claimed, but all anyone has ever offered me a cogent argument for it.

Consider this wrinkle.....
If mere possession of a gun at home makes one & one's family more at risk, this
would be true for law enforcement. But no one addresses that problem, because
they don't believe it's a problem. So it raises the question....are there circumstances
where non-law enforcement types can also see net benefit from being armed at home?
This, the simplistic claim that a gun at home means greater danger is bogus.
One should consider training, judgement & personality....which can make gun
ownership a reasonable choice.

Btw, I know people who shouldn't be armed....one of who is a cop.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, because a US star is for gun control you have decided that I am holding hands with her?

Only figuratively.
(I know you wouldn't two time Mrs Badger.)

When you write stuff and nonsense like the above it is a sure fire 'tell' that you're on the ropes, Revolting.
Usually you are fairly calm on 'gun' threads, but recent ones? Doh!

I offered you nonsense to illustrate why your quoting unnamed internet
crazies' opinions about gun control offer nothing to the conversation.

.....if you type 'arm school teacher US' into jolly old google you will get about 25 million hits, but let's just plonk the first half dozen en-post for you. Mr Trump is there!
Get ready to hold hands... Revolting!
About 25,100,000 results (0.66 seconds)
Search Results
US gun laws: Colorado to arm teachers in classrooms - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40353408
21 Jun 2017 - Teachers were taken to a shooting range in Weld County, near Denver, ... to "allow teachers, administrators, and other personnel to stop school ...
Trump: Arm teachers to stop school massacres - CNNPolitics - CNN.com
edition.cnn.com/2015/10/03/politics/donald...shooting-armed-teachers/index.html
4 Oct 2015 - Trump: Armed teachers could have stopped Oregon massacre. ... Washington (CNN)Donald Trump said Saturday that had teachers been armed at Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Oregon, the deadly shooting there this week would not have been as tragic. Trump has previously cited mental ...
Across the country, school districts are quietly arming teachers for the ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../across-the-country-school-districts-are-quietly-armi...
14 Apr 2016 - These incidents, and every school shooting in between, have sent ... Hook as the kind of event that they hope armed teachers could prevent.
Would Arming Teachers And Students Really Have Prevented A ...
www.popsci.com/science/article/.../could-arming-teachers-and-students-prevent-trage...
19 Dec 2012 - Would Arming Teachers And Students Really Have Prevented A Tragedy? ... After Friday's shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, a spokesman ... guns: For one, people might enter an environment they'd normally avoid.
Guns and teachers: Would arming educators prevent mass shootings ...
idahostatejournal.com › Members
20 Oct 2015 - Mass shootings at schools and college campuses have led to a discussion of the wisdom of arming teachers in hopes of preventing the attacks ...
School Shootings: Arming Teachers Isn't the Answer | TIME.com
ideas.time.com/2012/12/21/viewpoint-arming-teachers-isnt-the-answer/
21 Dec 2012 - (MORE: Sandy Hook Shooting: The Speculation about Adam Lanza Must Stop). It's important to keep in mind ... If arming teachers isn't the answer, what can schools do to minimize the risk of violence? Although much work ...
Colorado to arm teachers in classrooms to prevent incidents of mass ...
www.firstpost.com › India News
22 Jun 2017 - Teachers in Colorado are being trained to use guns, which they will be ... to carry in classrooms to fire back in the event of a school shooting.
Arm Teachers To Stop Shootings - WSJ
www.wsj.com/articles/SB927233749927433053
21 May 1999 - But one of the few immediate steps that could stop killers in the school yard is deemed beyond the pale. I'm referring to arming schoolteachers.
Gun rights advocates: Arm our teachers to help stop school shootings ...
www.salon.com/.../gun_rights_advocates_arm_our_teachers_to_help_stop_school_sh...
18 Dec 2012 - Gun rights activists have a wild solution for school shootings — and it's ... gun rights activists and state lawmakers: Arm all of the teachers.
'It's not the guns': Donald Trump says arming teachers and students ...
www.dailymail.co.uk/.../It-s-not-guns-Donald-Trump-says-arming-teachers-students-s...
3 Oct 2015 - Donald Trump launched a well-worn defense of gun control laws tonight; Said arming students and teachers would help stop school shootings ...

You claimed an agenda of arming all teachers & bus drivers.
I say this is irresponsible because it's not a reasonable or mainstream solution.
Instead of criticizing the more seriously proposed approach of allowing trained
teachers to volunteer to carry, you deal only with a straw man.

Just as there are crazies in the pro-gun camp, I pointed out Nancy
Sinatra's anti-gun insanity as in your camp. The point...which is
sailing over the heads of so many...is that one shouldn't base advocacy
for changes in gun control policy upon what crazies say.

 

[esmith]

A law with no means or will of enforcement is a pretty big "loophole" in it's intent, don't you think?

No.

 

[BSM1]

Yep, a later para in your post suggested that it might have been electronics that you were installing. But as you know there is much much more to securing a property than those.

The concept of a person who puts a dog in the yard, sets an alarm and goes to bed with a gun is really very very strange to us in the UK. Some US gunners insist that villains can get guns anyway, despite controls, but with regard to home security the UK can show that this is just not true. Maybe the difference is that we look at security differently here.

I could double-triple-quadruple security at that multi million dollar property (after the electronics, dog etc are in place) for about $30, so just imagine what could be achieved for $5000 or $50,000. After all, it is a multi-million residence.

It appears to me as if some US folks just cling on to a gun and a dog.

Over here we watch a telly program about the Texas SPCA and again and again we see the investigators finding big dogs that have been chained up in yards for so long that the chains have become embedded inside their necks.

I have always told my customers to invest as little as possible in their security systems. Electronic security systems can be compromised, or owners simply stop using them; dogs are easily bypassed by using hairspray on them as they bark or toss them a juicy T-bone (seen it done). Bottom line, it could boil down to you and him (or them). You have to ask yourself, "What am I willing to do? How far will I go to protect my family?" Granted, it's not an easy question, and if you think you would hesitate pulling the trigger in that scary and possible fatal situation, then you better not have a weapon let alone pull it.

 

[BSM1]

Deny? Not quite....practice so the wrong one does not end up laying on the floor. If that is silly so be it.
If you think you need weapons I recommend a shotgun for home defense and hitting the range regularly with your handgun of choice.

A shotgun? Seriously? I want to take out an intruder, not a wall. But why would you advocate a shotgun (which has less control of shot location) than a handgun or rifle? I, like most of my generation, fearlessly grew up with guns and I have had enough military training to know which end of the weapon to point at someone standing in front of me.

But that "comfort" is fantasy based. That's the point of this thread. It's the fantasy that having a gun makes us powerful and will free from the subjugation of others. When the truth is that having a gun in our homes makes us MORE likely to be killed by one, not less.

Hey! You leave my fantasies out of this. I use to fantasize about Farrar Fawcett. That didn't pan out so at least let me have this one, jeez...

 

[Stanyon]

This is what your post reads like, *I edited it so this is not an exact quote from PureX:

People are crazy for owning assualt weapons, blah, blah, blah, ban assault weapons, you don't need them blah blah blah. Gun owning American men need to feel powerful, blah blah blah, rich people blah, blah, blah men feel helpless blah, blah, blah, guns are responsible for crime blah blah blah, and again the wealthy elite.... blah... blah..... blah

So what about the many females that enjoy shooting? Is a pink camouflage AR-15 sexist?, Who are the shadowy wealthy elite that make up this grande conspiracy theory?

 

[oldbadger]

I have always told my customers to invest as little as possible in their security systems.

Which is why security surveyors work for insurance companies, which insist that high risks follow their exact specifications if they want full insurance cover.

Electronic security systems can be compromised, or owners simply stop using them;

Which is why insurance companies always investigate alarm system memories before making pay-outs.

dogs are easily bypassed by using hairspray on them as they bark or toss them a juicy T-bone (seen it done).

Which is why professional dog trainers train dogs to only accept food from their keepers, and to sound off if offered food by any other.

Bottom line, it could boil down to you and him (or them).

Could? Given your ideas on home security it just might....

You have to ask yourself, "What am I willing to do? How far will I go to protect my family?"

Well, I would call in a pro-security consultant if I had a high-risk home.

Granted, it's not an easy question,

It's an easy question so far. You did nothing to secure your home.

and if you think you would hesitate pulling the trigger in that scary and possible fatal situation, then you better not have a weapon let alone pull it.

Who exactly is the 'you' that you are referring to? The owner of a high-value home with high-value contents would have done much more than you did.
The whole idea of decent professional security is that you can shout out your warnings in plenty of safety before you would need to shoot. The person you just described is totally inept about security.

QUESTION: How did intruder gain access?
QUESTION: What was intruder after?
QUESTION: Why did intruder select that premises?
The list of questions could be huge......... those can do for now.....

 

[PureX]

This is what your post reads like, *I edited it so this is not an exact quote from PureX:"...

So what about the many females that enjoy shooting? Is a pink camouflage AR-15 sexist?, Who are the shadowy wealthy elite that make up this grande conspiracy theory?

Way to really lose sight of the point of this thread! Oh, wait, you never caught sight of it because you didn't actually read the OP so much as you redacted it as you glanced over it.

And by the way, the "many" women who enjoy shooting guns? ... Not so many. More like the "few women" that like shooting guns, as compared to "a great many" men that do.

 

[oldbadger]

This is what your post reads like, *I edited it so this is not an exact quote from PureX:

Did you alter another members writing?
If you're happy with that........

So what about the many females that enjoy shooting? Is a pink camouflage AR-15 sexist?, Who are the shadowy wealthy elite that make up this grande conspiracy theory?

What about them? So let them go shooting. But what exactly are they going to shoot with an semi-auto 15 round assault rifle?

 

[oldbadger]

Only figuratively.
(I know you wouldn't two time Mrs Badger.)

She wouldn't need a gun.

I offered you nonsense to illustrate why your quoting unnamed internet crazies' opinions about gun control offer nothing to the conversation.

Hundreds of thousands of gun nuts wanted to arm teachers rather than introduce better gun control. Mr Trump was named in one of those links.

You claimed an agenda of arming all teachers & bus drivers.I say this is irresponsible because it's not a reasonable or mainstream solution.Instead of criticizing the more seriously proposed approach of allowing trained teachers to volunteer to carry, you deal only with a straw man.

It was the gun nuts straw man the, but it looked pretty serious to me after the Sandy Hook killings. No straw there.

Just as there are crazies in the pro-gun camp, I pointed out Nancy Sinatra's anti-gun insanity as in your camp. The point...which is sailing over the heads of so many...is that one shouldn't base advocacy for changes in gun control policy upon what crazies say.

Well the NRA seems to be advocating or accepting some legislative changes. Is this the leak in the dam?
If the US voters change opinion, then the USA changes course.

 

[Stanyon]

Did you alter another members writing?
If you're happy with that........

I was completely honest and up front about my alteration, something I was not afforded by a certain poster.

What about them? So let them go shooting. But what exactly are they going to shoot with an semi-auto 15 round assault rifle?

Whether with a 15 round clip or a 75 round clip I'm almost %100 sure it will be non-human targets.

 

[Stanyon]

the NRA seems to be advocating or accepting some legislative changes. Is this the leak in the dam?

I can bump fire my M1 carbine pretty easy without any special geegaws or gimeracks but why waste the ammo?

 

[BSM1]

Which is why security surveyors work for insurance companies, which insist that high risks follow their exact specifications if they want full insurance cover.


Which is why insurance companies always investigate alarm system memories before making pay-outs.

Which is why professional dog trainers train dogs to only accept food from their keepers, and to sound off if offered food by any other.

Could? Given your ideas on home security it just might....

Well, I would call in a pro-security consultant if I had a high-risk home.

It's an easy question so far. You did nothing to secure your home.

Who exactly is the 'you' that you are referring to? The owner of a high-value home with high-value contents would have done much more than you did.
The whole idea of decent professional security is that you can shout out your warnings in plenty of safety before you would need to shoot. The person you just described is totally inept about security.

QUESTION: How did intruder gain access?
QUESTION: What was intruder after?
QUESTION: Why did intruder select that premises?
The list of questions could be huge......... those can do for now.....

Begging you pardon, I have been doing this work professionally for 30 years. I am duly licensed and certified by my state. How much experience have you had?