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About fossils -- would you say this is true?

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The way I approach this is to combine science with religion to see where they overlap. Creation places the age of the universe at about 6000 years. I asked myself, what science proven discoveries occurred in that carbon dated time scale? The answer is the invention of written language and the rise of stable civilization.
Creation's age of the universe is based on no objective evidence, just a count of ages in a book of mythology. It can be dismissed out of hand. Science's estimate is based on clearly observable evidence, tested and conformed from a dozen different disciplines and methods.
Carbon dated time scale? What about the many other, independent dating scales, using different methods, which all agree on the numbers -- except, of course, with Usshers' chronology.
I can see evolution by natural selection for humans, happening up to the rise of civilization and written language. Once civilization forms and persists, man made environments appear, and man made selections start to add a wild card to natural selection for humans.

There must have been was an update in the human brain's operating system about 6000 years ago, since human behavior changes very drastically.
That's not necessarily due to an 'update'. There are other, documented factors at play.
In a sense, a new type of human appears who was no longer fully a part of nature; paradise. This new human became more civilized and willful. It is like a clock starts anew.
For example, natural selection would pick the most fit under various circumstances. How did the idea of blood lines ever form, where the selected people, are already selected ahead of time, detached from environmental circumstances?
Huh? Not following. Culture vs natural selection??
This is not natural selection, but appears to be a unique man made selection process, or some other form of modern human selection process; needs of collectivism. It also reflects a more open vision of the future, instead of living in the present like a natural animal. It was a remarkable update.
But people always lived in the present. Many still do.
Human culture did not change because of a brain update -- though we could seriously use one, IMHO.
The Pleistocene ice-age ended. New lifestyle possibilities arose. New species of hominins began migrating, interacting and competing.
The bible to me is like an ancient diary of those new human early days, which were often explained using the thinking of that time; lacks 20/20 insight back then. But this is still valuable, since it gives us clues as to how we got here and how the modern brain's operating system is layered; science from religion.

Yes. Folklore gives valuable, anthropological, sociological and psychological insight into human culture. Not for biology, though.
Science and religion are opposites, not just in conclusions, but in methodology.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, you don't expect to die? The fact that you will one day die makes GOD depraved? Will you die because GOD is depraved or because you are?
Huh?
Doesn't you religion posit a just, loving, compassionate God?
That's not how He's portrayed in the Bible. In the Bible God is a cruel, jealous, bellicose warlord, with little regard for human life or rights.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Matthew 24:36-41 Jesus the CHRIST speaking to HIS disciples:

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of NOAH, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the FLOOD, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day NOAH entered the ARK; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the FLOOD came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.​

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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2 Peter 3:3-4 (Pronounces that YOU are among the scoffers who were to come in the last days.)

1 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was DELUGED and DESTROYED. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.


You don't uphold science, but thories. The scientists that are in "agreement" reject everyone else who disagrees with their assessment.
No, you don't understand science.
A scientific theory represents the highest truth-value possible outside of mathematics. Assessments are based on testable facts and direct observations, not hearsay or popular opinion. Science follows the facts, and accepts the objective evidence -- whether scientists like it or not. Science welcomes -- and tests -- disagreements. If science is unable to falsify them, they're accepted

You keep thinking of science as some sort of alternative religion or system of faith. It is not. Science is nothing like religion. A theory is more than an opinion, assessment, or hypothesis.
Nothing the Bible reveals from GOD is blasphemy In Mark 3:29 Jesus says, “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” Matthew's account adds that even blasphemy against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31–32)

The first line of Isaiah 40:22 reads, “It is HE [GOD] who sits above the circle of the earth.” Some have argued from this that Scripture teaches the earth to be a flat disc, rather than a globe. However, even if the original Hebrew is correctly understood to refer to a circle, this doesn’t necessarily indicate something flat; a sphere viewed in space appears as a circle from whatever direction it is viewed. Moreover, there is good reason to regard that the word translated ‘circle’ might be better translated ‘sphere’ I believe the earth is spherical.
You're cherry-picking quotations to bolster your position. You're using the Bible as an unquestionable authority. You're casting about for biblical passages supporting your current positions. This is epistemically invalid.
Look at and analyze the actual evidence. If the evidence stands, accept it, and the derived conclusions.

I could pick passages supporting alternative positions; I could quote from Hindu, Muslim or Taoist scripture.
Scripture -- with equal validity. Without supporting evidence quotations are useless.

Religious scripture is unreliable. It's based on uneducated opinion, and the social norms of a particular society at a particular place and time. Science, on the other hand, is reliable -- because it's based on universal, observable, testable, objective facts.

Scripture supports countless different religions, with countless incompatible claims. Science/Reason produces evidenced, testable consensus. Which is more likely to be accurate?
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How is the Word of GOD a graven image. Graven images are man made statues and Idols (I'm not Catholic) that try to represent what GOD is and are worshipped as such. Is it possible to idolize the Bible? The answer is a resounding, “No.” Prioritizing the Bible is far from idolatry. Prioritizing the Bible is prioritizing God's voice to us, and thus God himself. GOD wrote the 10 Commandments not Moses. Michelangelo carved the Pieta' to represent his own ideal.
Your belief is a matter of faith not objective verifiable evidence. As far as the history of our universe, life, and humanity I go with the actual evidence we can verify.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
Matthew 24:36-41 Jesus the CHRIST speaking to HIS disciples:

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of NOAH, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the FLOOD, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day NOAH entered the ARK; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the FLOOD came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.​

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jesus said this nearly 2000 years ago. He has not returned yet.
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2 Peter 3:3-4 (Pronounces that YOU are among the scoffers who were to come in the last days.)

1 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was DELUGED and DESTROYED. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
This was written more than 1850 years ago, and 'this "coming" he promised' has not happened yet.
The first line of Isaiah 40:22 reads, “It is HE [GOD] who sits above the circle of the earth.” Some have argued from this that Scripture teaches the earth to be a flat disc, rather than a globe. However, even if the original Hebrew is correctly understood to refer to a circle, this doesn’t necessarily indicate something flat; a sphere viewed in space appears as a circle from whatever direction it is viewed. Moreover, there is good reason to regard that the word translated ‘circle’ might be better translated ‘sphere’.

I believe the earth is spherical.
So did Pythagoras (ca. 580-500 BC), who lived at the same time as the author of Isaiah 40. Perhaps Pythagoras and deutero-Isaiah got their information about the sphericity of the Earth from the same source (Babylonian astronomers?).
 
Cherry-picking quotations to bolster your position? You're right because the bible says so? That's epistemic absurdity, not to mention circular.
Scripture, unlike the objective, palpable, testable facts, relied on by science, is unreliable, based on uneducated opinion.
Scripture supports countless religions with countless incompatible claims. Science/Reason produces evidenced, testable consensus.
So, I challenge you to read/study through the ENTIRE BIBLE. Science is no more scientific than the scientists involved.
 
Jesus said this nearly 2000 years ago. He has not returned yet.
Israel needed to become a country first, and that didn't occur until 1948
This was written more than 1850 years ago, and 'this "coming" he promised' has not happened yet.

So did Pythagoras (ca. 580-500 BC), who lived at the same time as the author of Isaiah 40. Perhaps Pythagoras and deutero-Isaiah got their information about the sphericity of the Earth from the same source (Babylonian astronomers?).
Does it matter --- As long as it's true!
 
No reason if they want to see their beliefs end up in the great rubbish bin of history. Which is where they will go along with so many others. Most sensible people allow for new evidence and will adjust beliefs accordingly. If you have fixed beliefs then this is less likely, and especially if such come from a set interpretation of any old religious text. In my view you are just gambling on such being authentic even if you have no right to expect this - given that there is no independent reliable authority verifying such texts.
I
A lot of us agree with the "God lies" claim. You need to address the actual facts that lead to the conclusion, rather than citing folklore and ad hom and ad pop counterattacks.

You claim this, and I can claim the earth was made by transdimentional mice, and cite the books of Douglas Adams.
A source, or opinion, is only is only as good as the evidence supporting it. You have little or no objective evidence supporting your preferred myth.
I cite a portfolio of books accepted by JESUS CHRIST and for which many approximately 2000 years ago gave their lives for. I cannot imagine Darwin would have died for his book THE DECENT OF MAN. And I know of no evolutionist scientists today who would give up their lives on Darwin's behalf. However, there are still Christians today who willingly die because they will not recant their faith in CHRIST JESUS.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I

I cite a portfolio of books accepted by JESUS CHRIST and for which many approximately 2000 years ago gave their lives for. I cannot imagine Darwin would have died for his book THE DECENT OF MAN. And I know of no evolutionist scientists today who would give up their lives on Darwin's behalf. However, there are still Christians today who willingly die because they will not recant their faith in CHRIST JESUS.
You do an inherently noble Faith
a great disservice with your ignorant raving.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hardly. I do have respect for the vast majority of scientists who would laugh at your beliefs. Given these beliefs are incompatible with the evidence that they would recognise as truthfully representing reality with our present knowledge. And such never likely to backslide into beliefs like yours. It's rather amazing that some of you expect to find evidence as to your beliefs, and relying on science no doubt to do so, but will reject that evidence that goes against your set beliefs even though coming from the same science.
A fixed belief unaffected by contrary evidence is a delusion.
Nipper is delusional.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm the CHRISTIAN and you are not. If you are willing to discuss things with me then you must be willing to accept the FACT that I believe in GOD and that HIS WORD is inerrant and YOU clearly do not.
But that doesn't confer any authority to your arguments. We all understand your position, but we also understand that your unshakeable faith is delusional.
What you wish to believe is of no consequence to me. If you have a question, I will politely provide you with a biblical answer. If I have a quest for you, you may answer if you care to; otherwise, I will not be communicating with you. The HOLY SPIRIT helps me with my biblical understanding and clearly HE doesn't communicate with you at this time.
So why are you in a debate room involving creationism vs evolution? Your opinion is fixed and factually baseless. I don't understand how you hope to contribute anything useful here.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That road would seem to go both ways, but evolutionists do not capitulate, so why should creationists?
"Evolutionists" would "capitulate" in a minute if given good evidence of creationism, or if our foundational evidence were overturned. Our opinions are not set in stone, they are whatever the objective evidence indicates.

What would overturn the beliefs of the creationists? Certainly not evidence. Your beliefs are not based on evidence.

Hitchen's razor: "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
 
But that doesn't confer any authority to your arguments. We all understand your position, but we also understand that your unshakeable faith is delusional.
"WE?" Clearly you are pretentious ---please speak for yourself.
So why are you in a debate room involving creationism vs evolution? Your opinion is fixed and factually baseless. I don't understand how you hope to contribute anything useful here.
And just how do you differ? Your opinion is not fixed? You've been able to create biological life in a test-tube? YES or NO? I don't understand why you don't go to some atheistic forum to enjoy a Mutual Admiration Society among your kin.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I cite a portfolio of books accepted by JESUS CHRIST and for which many approximately 2000 years ago gave their lives for. I cannot imagine Darwin would have died for his book THE DECENT OF MAN. And I know of no evolutionist scientists today who would give up their lives on Darwin's behalf. However, there are still Christians today who willingly die because they will not recant their faith in CHRIST JESUS.
Anything you can cite about Jesus is, at best, educated conjecture.
Sincerity of belief is not evidence of truth. Truth equates with evidence.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So, I challenge you to read/study through the ENTIRE BIBLE. Science is no more scientific than the scientists involved.
Well there is a nonsensical and actually rather hypocritical claim. Tell us, how did you communicate here? Did you use any sort of modern technology or did you use smoke signals?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
"WE?" Clearly you are pretentious ---please speak for yourself.

And just how do you differ? Your opinion is not fixed? You've been able to create biological life in a test-tube? YES or NO? I don't understand why you don't go to some atheistic forum to enjoy a Mutual Admiration Society among your kin.

Do you know what the logical fallacy of "Moving the goalposts" signifies? It is a tacit admission that you lost the debate. You tried to move the debate to natural abiogenesis, but evolution does not rely on natural abiogenesis. Granted, it is by far the most likely explanation, but it is not needed for evolution. By moving the goalposts that far you have conceded the evolution argument. If you did not wish to do so I would suggest that you apologize for getting even more out of your depth and go back to your previous weak attempts.


You really should learn about the scientific method and scientific evidence. There is no scientific evidence for your beliefs. If you understood the concept you would quickly agree. And the sites that you refer to do not allow their workers to use the scientific method. They are not science based at all. They only pretend to be to fool the ignorant.
 
"Evolutionists" would "capitulate" in a minute if given good evidence of creationism, or if our foundational evidence were overturned. Our opinions are not set in stone, they are whatever the objective evidence indicates.
No they would not. They reject GOD and want nothing to do with HIS existence.
What would overturn the beliefs of the creationists? Certainly not evidence. Your beliefs are not based on evidence.
A return to normalcy without any mention of GOD.
Hitchen's razor: "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
The West Coast is presently experiencing a MAJOR Hurricane after well over 25 years with a preponderance of rain after a year of rain and years of devastating droughts. At the very same time they have an earthquake with major aftershocks. Century old landmark Stores in LA and San Francisco are beginning to close after marauding gangs rampage smash'n grab -- stealing everything. To top it off the northwest is burning and creating the most unhealthy air conditions in literally ages. Canada's wildfires show no sign of ending anytime soon with the City of Yellowknife is being evacuated. Over 100 citizens of Maui burned to a crisp. The war between Russia and the Ukraine proceeds, and the Russians provide North Korea with the capacity to launch nuclear missiles capable of hitting the United States. Giant Food Store loses over $500,000 after it takes extraordinary precautions to stop theft in the only supermarket in Washington DC. The store likely will close. All of this is happening all at once and is growing exponentially especially in LIBERAL areas that seem oblivious to GOD or HIS influence--- yet seen to be entirely without control over anything. However, the gays can marry, drag queens can read to kindergarten children, women may get all the abortions that they wish, the transgender may use any bathroom or participate in any gender sport or be called "IT," as they so wish. All is so right with the world....

I firmly believe Creation's GOD is providing warning after warning, but the liberal mind just is oblivious to anything and everything not connected with personal fun and enjoyment regardless of the consequences. Their mantra remains, "There's not proof of GOD. Duh!!!" What will be will be ---- it's spelled out in the Bible for those who care to read it.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"WE?" Clearly you are pretentious ---please speak for yourself.
Do we need to poll your interlocutors for their understanding of your opinions? You underestimate yourself. You've made yourself clear.
The responses of myself and your other critics here are clear as well. I believe I can accurately claim to be in essential agreement with them.

And just how do you differ? Your opinion is not fixed? You've been able to create biological life in a test-tube? YES or NO? I don't understand why you don't go to some atheistic forum to enjoy a Mutual Admiration Society among your kin.
Don't creationists commonly criticize science because it's always changing; that it can't seem to make up its mind?
No. Scientific opinion is not fixed.

Stop assuming science is like religion.
Science follows the evidence, it's an investigative modality. More evidence is always accumulating, and opinions are always being modified to fit the evidence. If the evidence leads to an unexpected conclusion, it will be accepted.

Life in a test tube? We're actually pretty close, if you follow the literature, and we've been seeing the components of life self-assemble and reproduce for a long time now, both in the lab and in nature.

We know organisms were created on a previously sterile planet. What's in question is whether this happened chemically, by observable mechanisms, or by magic. The former seems more likely to me.

Q: Who are my kin? Rational people? Skeptics? The curious?
It's the faith-based fora that look most like self-congratulatory, mutual admiration societies. It's they that suppress dissent and block posters questioning orthodox positions.

RF allows all opinions -- as the presence of both rationalists and true believers like yourself indicates. We argue. We try to explain our positions. We point out logical or factual errors, feathers get ruffled, but few get blocked or booted based solely on their opinions.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No they would not. They reject GOD and want nothing to do with HIS existence.

A return to normalcy without any mention of GOD.

The West Coast is presently experiencing a MAJOR Hurricane after well over 25 years with a preponderance of rain after a year of rain and years of devastating droughts. At the very same time they have an earthquake with major aftershocks. Century old landmark Stores in LA and San Francisco are beginning to close after marauding gangs rampage smash'n grab -- stealing everything. To top it off the northwest is burning and creating the most unhealthy air conditions in literally ages. Canada's wildfires show no sign of ending anytime soon with the City of Yellowknife being evacuated. Over 100 citizens of Maui burned to a crisp. The war between Russia and the Ukraine proceeds, and the Russians provide North Korea with the capacity to launch nuclear missiles capable of hitting the United States. Giant Food Store loses over $500,000 after it takes extraordinary precautions to stop theft in the only supermarket in Washington DC. The store likely will close. All of this is happening all at once and is growing exponentially especially in LIBERAL areas that seem oblivious to GOD or HIS influence--- yet seen to be entirely without control over anything. However, the gays can marry, drag queens can read to kindergarten children, women may get all the abortions that they wish, the transgender may use any bathroom or participate in any gender sport or be called "IT," as they so wish. All is so right with the world....

I firmly believe Creation's GOD is providing warning after warning, but the liberal mind just is oblivious to anything and everything not connected with personal fun and enjoyment regardless of the consequences. Their mantra remains, "There's not proof of GOD. Duh!!!" What will be will be ---- it's spelled out in the Bible for those who care to read it.
Well there goes a champion list of non sequiturs. And some of them are good some are bad. I wonder if you can tell which is which.

Here is a hint to one of them, the Bible in now way is anti-abortion.
 
Do we need to poll your interlocutors for their understanding of your opinions? You underestimate yourself. You've made yourself clear.
The responses of myself and your other critics here are clear as well. I believe I can accurately claim to be in essential agreement with them.
I personally don't feel it is your place to be the spokes person for anyone other than yourself.
Don't creationists commonly criticize science because it's always changing; that it can't seem to make up its mind?
No. Scientific opinion is not fixed.
How long have evolutionists been promoting macro evolution and Abiogenesis without any definitive proof. Extinct ancient species doesn't prove ancestry. And DNA being promoted to thousands of years let alone millions of years is highly suspect even in secular circles. Please note:
Science follows the evidence, it's an investigative modality. More evidence is always accumulating, and opinions are always being modified to fit the evidence. If the evidence leads to an unexpected conclusion, it will be accepted.
Secular Scientists follow each other and promote themselves.
Life in a test tube? We're actually pretty close, if you follow the literature, and we've been seeing the components of life self-assemble and reproduce for a long time now, both in the lab and in nature.
NO we are not! We can barely create half the DNA data necessary, and have no clue how the matched the DNA chain began.
We know organisms were created on a previously sterile planet. What's in question is whether this happened chemically, by observable mechanisms, or by magic. The former seems more likely to me.
GOD did it! The supernatural is not magic(which is slight of hand or a trick).
Q: Who are my kin? Rational people? Skeptics? The curious?
It's the faith-based fora that look most like self-congratulatory, mutual admiration societies. It's they that suppress dissent and block posters questioning orthodox positions.
Orthodox! And you believe your view of science isn't "RELIGION".
RF allows all opinions -- as the presence of both rationalists and true believers like yourself indicates. We argue. We try to explain our positions. We point out logical or factual errors, feathers get ruffled, but few get blocked or booted based solely on their opinions.
Maybe ---- we shall see.
 
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