...about killing babies.

[ellenjanuary]

Both positions have developed in Jewish Law, and both are supportable.

I just seen you!

So I brought you back.

 

[Alceste]

Thansks for the reply.

So isn't it accurate to say that abortion is at least one of the main issues of 'pro-choice'?

As far as what i have read in Roe vs. Wade, it is all about the right to have control over birth, and ultimately the right to abortion. It would seem to me quite weird if the latter part was not considered as important.

It's important in that no women's health or women's rights platform or policy can be considered adequate without safe access to abortion, just like it can not be considered adequate without a strategy for coping with sexual assault cases, access to shelters and other resources for escaping abuse, measures to reduce child poverty, accurate and comprehensive sex education and universal access to condoms, birth control pills, morning after pills, hormonal patches or injections, tubal ligations and / or other forms of birth control.

 

[Koldo]

It's important in that no women's health or women's rights platform or policy can be considered adequate without safe access to abortion, just like it can not be considered adequate without a strategy for coping with sexual assault cases, access to shelters and other resources for escaping abuse, measures to reduce child poverty, accurate and comprehensive sex education and universal access to condoms, birth control pills, morning after pills, hormonal patches or injections, tubal ligations and / or other forms of birth control.

I guess you are expanding on the theme of 'pro-choice'. In my opinion ,you seem to be giving some more meaning to it than it actually has.

 

[Alceste]

I guess you are expanding on the theme of 'pro-choice'. In my opinion ,you seem to be giving some more meaning to it than it actually has.

No, i'm pretty confident pro-choice means pro-reproductive choice to the vast majority of people who use the label. Reproductive choice is not limited to having or not having abortions. That is simply the issue where those who are against reproductive choice get their misogynist panties most entangled.

Do you see pro-choicers picketing the obstetrics ward to try to talk pregnant women into having abortions, or murdering midwives in an effort to prevent women from choosing to give birth? No. But you may see them handing out free condoms.

 

[Koldo]

Do you see pro-choicers picketing the obstetrics ward to try to talk pregnant women into having abortions, or murdering midwives in an effort to prevent women from choosing to give birth? No. But you may see them handing out free condoms.

And why would anyone pro-abortion take such approach?
Only if extremist.

Personally, i think people 'pro-choice' can engage in activities that go beyond being 'pro-abortion', and this is exactly what you are talking about.

 

[Alceste]

And why would anyone pro-abortion take such approach?
Only if extremist.

Personally, i think people 'pro-choice' can engage in activities that go beyond being 'pro-abortion', and this is exactly what you are talking about.

The point is that almost nobody is "pro-abortion". It is generally viewed as a regrettable necessity and a last resort even among its staunchest defenders.

 

[Koldo]

The point is that almost nobody is "pro-abortion". It is generally viewed as a regrettable necessity and a last resort even among its staunchest defenders.

In fact, all 'pro-choice' are 'pro-abortion' for as long as abortion is the only mean to terminate a pregnancy after the first week.

 

[Koldo]

To add: Being 'pro-abortion' doesn't mean you defend the indicriminated use of abortion.

 

[Alceste]

In fact, all 'pro-choice' are 'pro-abortion' for as long as abortion is the only mean to terminate a pregnancy after the first week.

You can terminate it easily before the first day by using condoms.

Seriously, even after the first week there is a range of options. An injection of a commonly used anti-cancer drug is effective up to 5 weeks. Also, there are a number of things that increase the likelihood of a miscarriage (which is already quite likely - something like 60% of pregnancies miscarry naturally). And of course, one can always go ahead and have a baby. Pro-choicers support that choice too.

 

[Koldo]

You can terminate it easily before the first day by using condoms.

Seriously, even after the first week there is a range of options. An injection of a commonly used anti-cancer drug is effective up to 5 weeks. Also, there are a number of things that increase the likelihood of a miscarriage (which is already quite likely - something like 60% of pregnancies miscarry naturally). And of course, one can always go ahead and have a baby. Pro-choicers support that choice too.

People 'pro-abortion' support or take no position over those things...
So, what is your point?

 

[Koldo]

What do you understand by 'pro-abortion'?

I guess you have a misconception on this term. For some reason, i think you see it as people who enforce abortions in all means possible.

 

[Alceste]

People 'pro-abortion' support or take no position over those things...
So, what is your point?

My point is that there is no such thing as "people who are pro-abortion", with the possible exception of Father Heathen.

 

[Koldo]

My point is that there is no such thing as "people who are pro-abortion", with the possible exception of Father Heathen.

I have already said it. Everyone 'pro-choice' is 'pro-abortion' for as long as the abortion is considered a valid choice by the 'pro-choice'.

Being 'pro-abortion' is simply being someone who accepts abortion as a mean to terminate a pregnancy.

 

[Alceste]

I have already said it. Everyone 'pro-choice' is 'pro-abortion' for as long as the abortion is considered a valid choice by the 'pro-choice'.

Being 'pro-abortion' is simply being someone who accepts abortion as a mean to terminate a pregnancy.

That is not what the term implies. The prefix "pro-" implies a strong preference for whatever follows. Pro-choicers do not prefer abortion over other strategies for reproductive self-determination.

 

[Koldo]

By the way, i am pro-abortion too for as long as there isn't anything better to deal with pregnancy after the first weeks.

However, i have my reservations as to mid to late-term pregnancy, such as 5 months old or so. I prefer to hold no general opinion on such situations.

 

[Koldo]

That is not what the term implies. The prefix "pro-" implies a strong preference for whatever follows. Pro-choicers do not prefer abortion over other strategies for reproductive self-determination.

Correct. However, you do have a strong preference for abortion when there is no other method available as long as it is the woman's wish.

And this is what i am talking about.

 

[Alceste]

Correct. However, you do have a strong preference for abortion when there is no other method available as long as it is the woman's wish.

And this is what i am talking about.

Even then I would not describe it as a "strong preference". Supporting a woman's right to reproductive choice does not mean I prefer whatever choice she happens to make. For example, I have supported a friend who had an abortion even though I thought it wasn't the right choice for her. She was in her late 30s and wanted to be a mother "eventually" but didn't have a solid prospect for a partner. I thought - and still think - she will deeply regret that choice if she doesn't end up with kids. I supported her anyway, because it's her decision, not mine.

 

[David M]

No one supports abortion.

What does the Bible say?

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Now, then. What does God say?

Therefore, choose life... God does not say, God speaks of choice, that both thou and thy seed may live and of progeny perhaps not sewn.

God does.

Numbers 5:16-22

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

In cases of adultery God causes abortions.

 

[Koldo]

Even then I would not describe it as a "strong preference". Supporting a woman's right to reproductive choice does not mean I prefer whatever choice she happens to make. For example, I have supported a friend who had an abortion even though I thought it wasn't the right choice for her. She was in her late 30s and wanted to be a mother "eventually" but didn't have a solid prospect for a partner. I thought - and still think - she will deeply regret that choice if she doesn't end up with kids. I supported her anyway, because it's her decision, not mine.

It saddens me when people say out loud that children are necessary to be happy. What is the society doing to people's minds?

 

[ellenjanuary]

God does.

Numbers 5:16-22


In cases of adultery God causes abortions.

I had some o' that. But I subvert scripture to my agenda, one piece at a time.