About that Gaza flotilla...

[kai]

So a criminal should be presumed innocent as long as they refuse to cooperate with the authorities, even if other lines of evidence gathered without their cooperation condemn them? Refusing to cooperate and then complaining that one wasn't involved in the investigation is ridiculous and dishonest. What exactly did they need to travel to Israel for, anyway? The boat isn't there. The bodies aren't there. Most of the witnesses aren't there, and those who are would be squirreled away by the government in any case.

No the accused is presumed innocent until all the evidence is brought to bear. Prosecution statements are very often at odds with the defence and a jury doesn't make up its decision on the prosecution evidence alone.

I make no judgement relying only on one side of the story to do so would mean my mind is already made up.Israel is cooperating with a wider UN enquiry and carrying out internal investigations. I will pass my own judgement based an the full story thanks.

 

[LuisDantas]

What would evidence be like? Is there any controversy on whether Israel's government ordered or at least supported the attack?

Heaving the prosecuted is all well and good, but it is not like Israel isn't being allowed to defend itself. It has been four months already. How long would a reasonable timeframe for Israel to speak be, if four months aren't enough?

 

[kai]

What would evidence be like? Is there any controversy on whether Israel's government ordered or at least supported the attack?

Heaving the prosecuted is all well and good, but it is not like Israel isn't being allowed to defend itself. It has been four months already. How long would a reasonable timeframe for Israel to speak be, if four months aren't enough?

But Israel are speaking to the UN investigation set up by Ban Ki-moon. They wouldn't speak to the investigation in the OP because they had already condemned Israel before the they even started the investigation.

 

[dogsgod]

The report by the United Nations Human Rights Council, published on September 22, 2010, declares the Israeli action as "disproportionate" and says it "betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality. wiki

 

[LuisDantas]

But Israel are speaking to the UN investigation set up by Ban Ki-moon. They wouldn't speak to the investigation in the OP because they had already condemned Israel before the they even started the investigation.

Maybe so. Or maybe the Israeli government just wants to avoid the heat for as long as possible so that people forget the matter.

Myself, I find it hard to believe the authorities would refuse to present their case. What reason is there to believe that the OP's investigation is so bizarrely biased?

 

[England my lionheart]

Watching the News i saw the IDF landing on the Ship,as soon as they landed they were attacked with metal rods and quite viciously i may add,i think the Israelis were on a lose lose situation with the Gaza flotilla,afterwhati witnessed i'm not surprised some people died.

 

[Bismillah]

Watching the News i saw the IDF landing on the Ship,as soon as they landed they were attacked with metal rods and quite viciously i may add,i think the Israelis were on a lose lose situation with the Gaza flotilla,afterwhati witnessed i'm not surprised some people died.

The IDF was firing at the ships from the helicopters. Before engaging and shooting activists who had a legal right to fight off the illegal boarding, shooting, and detaining of peaceful activists. Also there was a case of three commandos having their weapons taken from them. One would think that those savage Turks would shoot them. Instead they were taken below decks and administered by a doctor who was also an activist.

kai: The Israelis are obstructing the evidence seizing tapes of the incident and trying to silence its opponents. It's clear that Israel refusing to work with the U.N inquiry signifies their guilt. What would they have to lose to present their own side? The only reason I can think of is that they are waiting to release their sensationalist claim until after the peace talks. I mean Israel does have to pretend to be interested in peace and only when those talks will eventually crumble will they release their own findings.

 

[kai]

Maybe so. Or maybe the Israeli government just wants to avoid the heat for as long as possible so that people forget the matter.

Well the Israelis are cooperating with a UN investigation set by the secratary general so they are not avoiding the heat as such they just wouldnt co-operate with this particular enquiry first because they condemned Israel before the enquiry started and they said it was not willing to give evidence at several different enquiries at the same time.so they went on without them basically

Myself, I find it hard to believe the authorities would refuse to present their case. What reason is there to believe that the OP's investigation is so bizarrely biased?

well it seems obvious to me that if an enquiry makes a report with only the evidence of the people on the Mavi marmara then what good is the report except of course as the evidence from the people on board the Mavi Marmara?

 

[LuisDantas]

Which brings us back to the question: why would Israel refuse to give its input?

 

[kai]

The IDF was firing at the ships from the helicopters. Before engaging and shooting activists who had a legal right to fight off the illegal boarding, shooting, and detaining of peaceful activists. Also there was a case of three commandos having their weapons taken from them. One would think that those savage Turks would shoot them. Instead they were taken below decks and administered by a doctor who was also an activist.

kai: The Israelis are obstructing the evidence seizing tapes of the incident and trying to silence its opponents. It's clear that Israel refusing to work with the U.N inquiry signifies their guilt. What would they have to lose to present their own side? The only reason I can think of is that they are waiting to release their sensationalist claim until after the peace talks. I mean Israel does have to pretend to be interested in peace and only when those talks will eventually crumble will they release their own findings.

i just wonder why peaceful activists would want to "fight off" Israeli commandos boarding the ship. one would think peaceful non violent protest would have been the order of the day, but peaceful non violent protest may not have been so well publicised though would it. who ever is to blame for the deaths on board that ship it certainly does Israel no favours thats for sure.

 

[kai]

Which brings us back to the question: why would Israel refuse to give its input?

Mainly because they made a statement in June condemning the raid:

The Foreign Ministry responded late Wednesday by saying the Human Rights Council had a "biased, politicized and extremist approach."

"The Human Rights Council blamed Israel prior to the investigation and it is no surprise that they condemn after," said Andy David, a spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, referring to the 47-member body's resolution in early June condemning the raid.

Israel refused to cooperate with the panel, preferring instead to work with a separate UN group under New Zealand's former Prime Minister Geoffrey Palmer and Colombia's former President Alvaro Uribe that is also examining the incident but has yet to publish its findings.



Netanyahu calls UNHRC flotilla report 'biased, distorted'

 

[England my lionheart]

The IDF was firing at the ships from the helicopters. Before engaging and shooting activists who had a legal right to fight off the illegal boarding, shooting, and detaining of peaceful activists. Also there was a case of three commandos having their weapons taken from them. One would think that those savage Turks would shoot them. Instead they were taken below decks and administered by a doctor who was also an activist.

I didn't see any firing from the Helicopters i only saw the violence start once the commandos landed on the Ship,i do think therewer some peacful activists on board buti also think there were some people who were there for anything but peace,hopefully the truth will out.

 

[Bismillah]

I didn't see any firing from the Helicopters i only saw the violence start once the commandos landed on the Ship

You say you saw this on the news you say? Well witnesses claim otherwise.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

From the same article:



Isn't it odd that they didn't find it necessary to go to Israel?

Not at all, Israel said it would not cooperate or speak with them, they were not welcome.

Israel never does obey UN Resolutions or Cooperate with them.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

i just wonder why peaceful activists would want to "fight off" Israeli commandos boarding the ship. one would think peaceful non violent protest would have been the order of the day, but peaceful non violent protest may not have been so well publicised though would it. who ever is to blame for the deaths on board that ship it certainly does Israel no favours thats for sure.

Why would anyone want to submit to an attack by Israeli forces with out resistance.

If an Israeli ship were attached by armed forces I would fully expect them to fight back.

A blocade by a foreign power during a war is supported in international law. However that same law supports those who run a blocade to defend them selves, under articles of war. The law does not "give permission" "or takes sides" it simply recognises the war situation.

 

[England my lionheart]

You say you saw this on the news you say? Well witnesses claim otherwise.

I have no doubt they do

 

[kai]

Why would anyone want to submit to an attack by Israeli forces with out resistance. Really?

If an Israeli ship were attached by armed forces I would fully expect them to fight back. sure thing! unless they are claiming to be peaceful protesters only carrying out humanitarian actions of course, then i would expect passive resistance.

A blocade by a foreign power during a war is supported in international law. However that same law supports those who run a blocade to defend them selves, under articles of war. The law does not "give permission" "or takes sides" it simply recognises the war situation.

ok so lets attack them and when they shoot us we can be martyrs and the survivors can complain.

 

[Bismillah]

I have no doubt they do

Seeing as I have evidence for my claims then by multiple witnesses, it's safe to assume that the IDF provoked the violent response and reacted in a disproportionate way?

 

[England my lionheart]

Seeing as I have evidence for my claims then by multiple witnesses, it's safe to assume that the IDF provoked the violent response and reacted in a disproportionate way?

Its safe to assume is it, BBC News - Israeli army releases 'flotilla footage' too many people make assumptions IMO,personally 600 activists who were supposedly peaceful protesters wielding iron bars was rather asking for trouble and i thinkthey got whatthey wanted.

 

[Bismillah]

Yes, it is safe to assume. Considering

Israel attempted to confiscate all footage recorded by participants in the Gaza Freedom flotilla – including taking away mobile phones – but Lee managed to smuggle one hour of video out of the country by hiding it in her underwear, it was reported.

I looked at the footage and 2 minutes into the scene it is clear that as the helicopter hovers over the ship, there are shots fired, before commandos repel down.

So what's surprising to me is that you are using edited videos posted by the IDF designed to save face and try and hide the fact that what occurred on the ships was a direct result of illegal actions carried out by the Israeli military.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/11/gaza-flotilla-attack-new-video

You article is also wrong in the simplest of terms in death count. The total number killed in the raid was nine not ten peace activists.