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About that Gaza flotilla...
- Thread starter dust1n
- Start date
kai
ragamuffin
Violent ambush? It was the activists who were met with violence when the Israelis started to rain down bullets and commandos when most of them were sleeping. When someone starts firing a gun at me, I'm not going to lie down supine either.
Flotilla Accounts Begin to Clarify Israeli Raid - CBS News
Not the same article, but the same message. The authorities were ready to welcome the ships and even if the ships themselves couldn't dock to the harbor, it wouldn't be hard to ferry the supplies. I've read that the idea was to unload the supplies on the beach. In any case, it's obvious that the mechanisms needed to make sure the aid was offloaded were in place.
It also would have been a much more deliberate and direct showing of political support. Feeding and clothing hungry children and providing medication for the sick is not wrong. I don't understand who you think it is.
You generalizing. It was not the entire ship that attacked the boarding party, they did not have enough bullets to handle that. It was a reaction from a few when they saw the Israelis, preemptively, shooting at the boat. Until you can refute that it was the Israelis who used deadly violence first and continued to use it on defenseless civilians, and still continued to use it while they were detained, there is nothing to talk about.
Because the government treats the lives of Muslim citizens as inferior to those of others. If you don't see the potential as a recruiting tool for Muslim extremists I don't know what to tell you. The headline of America ignoring the death of its own citizen to make sure Israel does not receive any bad PR would be pretty effective on a Jihadi pamphlet..You really have taken a side already, you are now hoping that the biased Israeli investigation, regarding its own activities, will provide evidence to back up your claims
on the contrary Abibi, i have already said i will wait until the dust settles and the facts are unwoven from the propaganda . Condemnation will be given where it deserves to be given.
Right now i have an opinion which is this escapade was a tragedy that was always bound to turn out badly as some of the organisers were hell bent on violent confrontation with the Israelis.
I applaud humanitarian gestures but not political point scoring with innocent lives.
Bismillah
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The flotilla, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), was carrying humanitarian aid,[10] medical supplies, and construction materials, intent on breaking Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip.[11][12][13]
Gaza flotilla raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tell me what is your theory of the ten thousand pounds of cargo the ship was carrying?
Smoke
Done here.
From your source:
Three of the flotilla ships carried only passengers and their personal belongings,[65] while three other ships carried 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid, with an estimated value of $20 million. The cargo including food, wheelchairs, books, toys, electricity generators, medicine,[69][70][71] and building materials prohibited under the Israel blockade, such as cement,[72] although Israel offered to allow even these commodoties to enter Gaza, if the flotilla were to dock in Ashdod.[73]
Two-thirds of the medicine delivered by the flotilla expired between six and fifteen months prior to the raid,[74] and were found to be useless.[75] Additionally, Israel said that much of the cargo, including sensitive medical equipment, was poorly packed, and consequently damaged.[65] ...
According to Israeli and Palestinian sources, as of 2 June 2010 Hamas refused to allow the humanitarian aid into Gaza until Israeli authorities released all flotilla detainees and allowed building materials, which are thought to make up the majority, 8,000 of the 10,000 tons of the goods, to reach them.[72][206][207] Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said, "We are not seeking to fill our (bellies), we are looking to break the Israeli siege on Gaza."[208]
On 17 June 2010, Palestinian authorities accepted the delivery of the cargo under UN supervision and coordination.[46] However, Israel stated it "will not transfer to Gaza the weapons and military equipment it had found aboard the Mavi Marmara."
Two-thirds of the medicine delivered by the flotilla expired between six and fifteen months prior to the raid,[74] and were found to be useless.[75] Additionally, Israel said that much of the cargo, including sensitive medical equipment, was poorly packed, and consequently damaged.[65] ...
According to Israeli and Palestinian sources, as of 2 June 2010 Hamas refused to allow the humanitarian aid into Gaza until Israeli authorities released all flotilla detainees and allowed building materials, which are thought to make up the majority, 8,000 of the 10,000 tons of the goods, to reach them.[72][206][207] Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said, "We are not seeking to fill our (bellies), we are looking to break the Israeli siege on Gaza."[208]
On 17 June 2010, Palestinian authorities accepted the delivery of the cargo under UN supervision and coordination.[46] However, Israel stated it "will not transfer to Gaza the weapons and military equipment it had found aboard the Mavi Marmara."
(Emphasis added)
Smoke
Done here.
You can read for yourself. Half the ships carried no aid at all. What was carried was almost all construction supplies. Israel offered to allow even those supplies into Gaza if the ships docked at Ashdod.
Two thirds of the medicines were expired. Dangerous garbage is not humanitarian aid.
The flotilla organizers merely made a show of bringing humanitarian aid. Their purpose was to make a statement. They made it. Some of them died for it. What's your problem?
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And? 20 million dollars in aid is pretty significant. We all know how fast aid trickles into Gaza, let alone the fact that Israel prohibits construction material like concrete and iron to be imported. This was a protest against the illegal blockade of Gaza, next you will tell me that we are not allowed to protest Israel either
Stop being deceitful, only a small portion of the aid was medicine, let alone expired medicine. The purpose was to aid Gaza and to shed light on the illegal blockade of Gaza. They accomplished both.
Smoke
Done here.
Protest all you want. Try to run a blockade if you want. But put your big boy pants on and prepare to deal with the consequences of blockade running.And? 20 million dollars in aid is pretty significant. We all know how fast aid trickles into Gaza, let alone the fact that Israel prohibits construction material like concrete and iron to be imported. This was a protest against the illegal blockade of Gaza, next you will tell me that we are not allowed to protest Israel either
Exactly. How can you pretend I'm being deceitful when I pointed that out myself?
But most of the medicine was expired? Why? Did they really mean for the Gazans to take expired medicines? Or was the medicine just for show?
They aided Gaza far less than if they had brought legitimate cargo and docked at Ashdod. They did manage something of a PR coup; I'll grant you that.
But you say they accomplished their goal. So it's all good; right? What's the problem?
Actually, events such as the one being discussed here feed the insanity of Brazil's current president and his supporters.
Peace is not attained by superior warfare.
Bismillah
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Were their actions threatening Israel at all? No. Was the Israeli response brutal and violated multiple international laws? Yes. Were the consequences appropriate to the actions? No. I guess me and you have a fundamental conflict over what is right and wrong.
From this
You are defining 10,000 pounds of aid a publicity stunt because some of the medicine was expired? That is deceitful.
How would I know, I wasn't organizing the effort. Poor management or an honest to god screw up among some of the volunteers would most likely be accurate.
How exactly did they aid Gaza less? The restrictions on the blockade lessened and the Gazans received the supplies unlike what would have happened if they had gone through official Israeli channels.
The purpose was to show the suffering of Gazans. Logically the next step would be to take actions to discontinue the blockade. What they also accomplished in doing was to demonstrate, first hand, the heavy handed bloody tactics Israel uses to suppress Palestinians. The goal is to end the suffering of Palestinians, this is a method to reach that goal.
Smoke
Done here.
Probably. I've already said that Israel should have just sunk the ship. That's been the usual response, historically, to blockade runners, and is not in my view an unreasonable one.
Partly because most of the medicine was expired, partly because they could have conveyed even the construction materials to Gaza if they'd docked at Ashdod, partly because half the ships carried no aid at all, and partly because Hamas and the flotilla participants themselves freely admitted that their purpose was not to provide aid but to break the blockade.
Not likely. You're just guessing, and guessing with a view to supporting your opinion at that.
Again, Israel offered to let all the "aid" through if the ships docked at Ashdod.
That's funny, because all we've been hearing as a result of this is the suffering of the activists. Anyway, Israel could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't end the suffering of the Palestinians. As long as they're led by terrorists, religious fanatics, and corrupt opportunists, their sufferings will continue indefinitely.
kai
ragamuffin
I am waiting for the Israeli investigation and the UN one added to the one in the OP and then any further investigations that follow,arnt you Abibi? and i don't have any claims just opinions, after all i wasn't there.
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Bismillah
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Maybe when the Allies kept supplying military materials, the Germans sunk those ships. When were humanitarian supplies ever sunk. And if they were sunk when was that ever acceptable.
So you want me take Israel's word for it
No the Israelis would not have become much more lenient if they had submitted to these demands, it would have simply stopped them from showcasing the plight of Palestinians.
Isn't it ironic that you are guilty of the exact same crime.
What they offer and what they do is completely different.
Really? Last I heard Israel eased its blockade, various other aid launches subsequently went ahead, and the international community realized that Israel really isn't afraid to break international law and kill peace activists.
This is false. Hamas is a response to Israeli actions within the occupied territories. Without Israeli occupation there would be no need for Hamas.
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Kai: Please explain how the physical evidence collected by this investigation could have been affected by biases that may or may not have been there? I am under the impression that the corpse does not change according to one's beliefs and prejudices.
I also noted that the investigation called out the activists where they were wrong and identified their faults as one.
This whole situation was comprised of both their faults, admittedly, but ultimately there is no excuse for premeditated violence, execution style killings, and beatings after the ship was secure. Do I wish that the activists hadn't resisted? Perhaps, but that would be denying them their entitled right of self defense.
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Smoke
Done here.
You don't have to take Israel's word for it. Listen to what Hamas and their friends say.So you want me take Israel's word for it
Guessing isn't a crime, *******. But my guess is practically a foregone conclusion, whereas yours is a desperate attempt to claim some kind of legitimacy for your propaganda.
Then you should be happy.
There is never any need for terrorist groups. Understand, these are not freedom fighters. They are religious fanatics who only want to subjugate the Palestinians to their own hateful fundamentalism. They are a festering sore on the Palestinian people, and their Western supporters are maggots.
Quote:Abibi
This is false. Hamas is a response to Israeli actions within the occupied territories. Without Israeli occupation there would be no need for Hamas.
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Hamas is the result of interference from the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt and Islamist ideology that goes way back to Muhamed Ibn Abd al-Wahhab to Al Bannah and Qutb.
This is false. Hamas is a response to Israeli actions within the occupied territories. Without Israeli occupation there would be no need for Hamas.
__________________
Hamas is the result of interference from the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt and Islamist ideology that goes way back to Muhamed Ibn Abd al-Wahhab to Al Bannah and Qutb.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Edit: Further to what England My Lionheart has written...
Hamas was a response to the corruption of the PLO led by Arafat.
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Bismillah
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It did break the blockade, Hamas was correct in their statements. That was also directed at your quote that supplies in Ashdod would reach Palestinians...
Smoke, calm down it is a figure of speech
Interesting that your "forgone conclusion" aligns directly with your claims that this was a PR stunt
Mine and your claims are no different except in what they espouse. But what is verifiable is the direct amount of aid that Gazans would have received through these activist's actions. Am I happy that the world sees the nature of Israel as it really as? Of course. Do I want people to sit on their butts after they have seen this footage? What do you think?
What one calls a terrorist the other calls a freedom fighter. The British would be quite accurate to term the American revolutionaries as terrorists and the Americans would be quite right to term the revolutionaries as freedom fighters. You just stand from the opposite side. And these groups are always due to an external cause, in this case Israel.