About that Gaza flotilla...

[kai]

I fail to see how they don't have the right to protect their ship. They were not at the blockade.. this was pre-blockade, a blockade that has already been declared illegal, and it is technically an act of war to board a ship in such a fashion. Do they some culpability sure... but who instigated it? Did you not read about the abuse that took place after the arrest? Am I to except this to be different in a more submitting incident?

But its not their ship is it? they were on a humanitarian mission weren't they?

the legality of the blockade is debatable what is not debatable is that there actually is a blockade and they fully intended to run it and knew full well the Israelis were going to intercept them.You see Israel is at war with the authority in Gaza there is a ceasefire and a blockade that's a fact, now running a blockade in those circumstances is in my view ridiculous . and Who instigated it is a good question I think when this tragic misadventure started is when the instigation started, it was bound to end badly, after all if you wanted to get aid to Gaza why not just dock at Ashdod and unload it? no a confrontation was the aim all along.

Any abuse after the arrest is disgusting.

 

[dust1n]

But its not their ship is it? they were on a humanitarian mission weren't they?

the legality of the blockade is debatable what is not debatable is that there actually is a blockade and they fully intended to run it and knew full well the Israelis were going to intercept them.You see Israel is at war with the authority in Gaza there is a ceasefire and a blockade that's a fact, now running a blockade in those circumstances is in my view ridiculous . and Who instigated it is a good question I think when this tragic misadventure started is when the instigation started, it was bound to end badly, after all if you wanted to get aid to Gaza why not just dock at Ashdod and unload it? no a confrontation was the aim all along.

Any abuse after the arrest is disgusting.

Of course they were putting themselves in harm's way, and why which children on the boat, I have no idea. But if there were protesters walking out past curfew and a mob of police beat 9 of them to death, I don't place the blame on the protesters for getting beating to death or expecting confrontation.

 

[Bismillah]

kai: Exactly commandos are not defenseless. I do not think anyone would be foolish enough to attack these commandos without due reason.

There was a docking facility ready to welcome the activists. I remember reading an article on the preparations of the port which included drawings of the Turkish flag and a large crowd of greeting onlookers. Well no doubt it was political, it was a message by the protesters that they most certainly do no support the blockade of Gaza. But to deny the humanitarian aspect of the flotilla is just silly, they weren't supplying the Gazans with Kalashnikovs and RPGs were they? That would be a true political message.

Would you have shot these activists if they had been filming you, lying supine on the ground, or unloaded another four rounds in the face of an already wounded and collapsed activist? The whole premise of commandos in imminent danger seems ludicrous to me and if the ever were in this danger it was a byproduct of their own actions and incitement of the crowd. Like that anchor from the Young Turks said, if Iranian coast guard attacked our citizens we would make it a point to emphasize that we resisted.

But what really gets me on this issue is the disgusting hypocrisy. A 19 year old American citizen was shot for filming this incident. He was shot multiple times in international water. Where the hell has the media been? Covering lost hikers? But they cannot spare 10 minutes to acknowledge that an American citizen was murdered in cold blood. I know full well why. Because he is a Muslim and was part of the flotilla. Such a murder does not fit in with the biased and false story that the media was constantly relaying back and forth. When an American citizen's life is disregarded like this, it makes me furious. I cannot accept these double standards and hypocrisy. Even if you take a middle of the road approach to this and wait for the other inquiry, America took Israel's perspective immediately. It's ridiculous the amount of influence Israel holds over American foreign policy, especially when stunts like these serve to put the U.S more at risk of terrorist attacks.

 

[Levite]

Gaza probe points to 'grave' Israeli rights violations - Yahoo! News

A UN probe said there was clear evidence to back prosecutions against Israel for killing and torture when its troops stormed a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May.

Shocking. The UN condemned Israel. So it's another day that ends in "y," is it?

Please. If an Israeli border guard farted over the fence, the UN would condemn Israel for deliberately polluting the Palestinians' air.

When it comes to Israel, the UN has zero credibility. They are all either Israel-haters, or fearers of Arab terrorism, or terrified of p****** off the Arabs and losing their precious, precious oil....

I promise you, if the world discovered limitless, clean, cheap, renewable energy tomorrow, and everybody stopped selling arms to every oil-rich sheikh's disreputable cousin who drops by the surplus store, I guarantee that the vast majority of the UN would not give a rat's a** about Israel, the Palestinians, or anything else in that whole sandy region of the world.

 

[kai]

Of course they were putting themselves in harm's way, and why which children on the boat, I have no idea. But if there were protesters walking out past curfew and a mob of police beat 9 of them to death, I don't place the blame on the protesters for getting beating to death or expecting confrontation.

Me neither! but thats not even a similar situation is it?

if the protesters attacked the police with iron bars they obtained in the full knowledge the police were going to intercept them it would be a similar situation

 

[kai]

kai: Exactly commandos are not defenseless. I do not think anyone would be foolish enough to attack these commandos without due reason. so what was the reason? they already knew the Israelis were going to intercept the ship it was no secret so any attempt to repel the Israelis was premeditated why would humanitarians premeditate a violent ambush.

There was a docking facility ready to welcome the activists. I remember reading an article on the preparations of the port which included drawings of the Turkish flag and a large crowd of greeting onlookers. Well no doubt it was political, it was a message by the protesters that they most certainly do no support the blockade of Gaza. But to deny the humanitarian aspect of the flotilla is just silly, they weren't supplying the Gazans with Kalashnikovs and RPGs were they? That would be a true political message.

That could be a mistake from the article then "Gaza does not have a deep sea port designed to receive the kind of cargo" Turkey, the flotilla and Israel: UN report deserves calm reading - International Crisis Group

and AKs and RPGs would be military wouldnt it and i dont think Hamas is in short supply of either.

Would you have shot these activists if they had been filming you, lying supine on the ground, or unloaded another four rounds in the face of an already wounded and collapsed activist? The whole premise of commandos in imminent danger seems ludicrous to me and if the ever were in this danger it was a byproduct of their own actions and incitement of the crowd. Like that anchor from the Young Turks said, if Iranian coast guard attacked our citizens we would make it a point to emphasize that we resisted.

no i wouldnt , the danger present to the boarding party is not ludicrous but very real and put all the people there in very great danger, in my opinion it was reckless stupidity or political expediancy to attack the Boarding party.

But what really gets me on this issue is the disgusting hypocrisy. A 19 year old American citizen was shot for filming this incident. He was shot multiple times in international water. Where the hell has the media been? Covering lost hikers? But they cannot spare 10 minutes to acknowledge that an American citizen was murdered in cold blood. I know full well why. Because he is a Muslim and was part of the flotilla. Such a murder does not fit in with the biased and false story that the media was constantly relaying back and forth. When an American citizen's life is disregarded like this, it makes me furious. I cannot accept these double standards and hypocrisy. Even if you take a middle of the road approach to this and wait for the other inquiry, America took Israel's perspective immediately. It's ridiculous the amount of influence Israel holds over American foreign policy, especially when stunts like these serve to put the U.S more at risk of terrorist attacks.

why would the murder of a US citizen by Israelis put US citizens at risk? and me i ill wait for all the evidence , its far too early and there's far too much propaganda from both sides for my liking.

 

[Ordeet]

Arab member states in the UN outnumber the Israelis 20 to 1. So of course any investigation that Israel does is going to come out biased in favor of Arabs or Muslims, no matter how militant the Muslims may have been. And yes, the Muslims/Arabs have always been violent, and this was no exception at all.

Israel gets ambushed by hate-filled terrorists on the high seas and then gets blamed for it. Ever wonder why the UN refused to let Israel conduct an investigation into the attempted murders of their own soldiers?

 

[croak]

Arab member states in the UN outnumber the Israelis 20 to 1. So of course any investigation that Israel does is going to come out biased in favor of Arabs or Muslims, no matter how militant the Muslims may have been. And yes, the Muslims/Arabs have always been violent, and this was no exception at all.

Ah, those violent Muslims/Arabs. I'm sure that there were no non-Muslims or non-Arabs on board, right?

Anyway, any investigation Israel does won't be biased towards Arabs or Muslims. A UN investigation might be, but an investigation by one party tends to be biased towards its own side. I suppose an Israeli investigation might be biased against Arabs and Muslims.

Israel gets ambushed by hate-filled terrorists on the high seas and then gets blamed for it. Ever wonder why the UN refused to let Israel conduct an investigation into the attempted murders of their own soldiers?

They're terrorists, now? I would think terrorists would've killed every soldier they could lay their hands on, and would have left with enough arms to have a chance if it came down to a showdown.

Uh... the UN can't refuse to allow Israel to conduct its own investigation. Sure, they might've wanted international observers, for instance, but if Israel refuses that, there's nothing the UN can do.

Facts are fun once you get to know them. You know, the way they can disprove falsehoods and all.

 

[RomCat]

I believe that many of the aid activists were
violent people. I saw on tv with my own eyes
activists armed with pipes attacking the
boarding party.
Israel had every right under International Law
to inspect that ship. This really hurts the credi-
bility of that U.N. commission.

 

[croak]

I believe that many of the aid activists were
violent people. I saw on tv with my own eyes
activists armed with pipes attacking the
boarding party.
Israel had every right under International Law
to inspect that ship. This really hurts the credi-
bility of that U.N. commission.

You must have seen a few hundred violent people to say that many of the activists were violent. I don't believe there were more than a few dozen, at most. Considering there were hundreds on board, if half of all the passengers had picked up a metal rod and gone at an Israeli commando, the situation would have turned out very, very differently.

As for the right under International Law, people can disagree on that, and they do. Plenty has been said about the subject.

 

[dust1n]

I believe that many of the aid activists were
violent people. I saw on tv with my own eyes
activists armed with pipes attacking the
boarding party.
Israel had every right under International Law
to inspect that ship. This really hurts the credi-
bility of that U.N. commission.

Actually, they broke International Law. The blockade was internationally declared illegal pre-flotilla.

They weren't at the blockade anyways, they were in international waters, so they no right to even inspect the ship, let alone shoot an unarmed American citizen twice in the face point blank, after being shot three times already... so...

 

[dust1n]

Shocking. The UN condemned Israel. So it's another day that ends in "y," is it?

Please. If an Israeli border guard farted over the fence, the UN would condemn Israel for deliberately polluting the Palestinians' air.

When it comes to Israel, the UN has zero credibility. They are all either Israel-haters, or fearers of Arab terrorism, or terrified of p****** off the Arabs and losing their precious, precious oil....

I promise you, if the world discovered limitless, clean, cheap, renewable energy tomorrow, and everybody stopped selling arms to every oil-rich sheikh's disreputable cousin who drops by the surplus store, I guarantee that the vast majority of the UN would not give a rat's a** about Israel, the Palestinians, or anything else in that whole sandy region of the world.

That's great, but easily calling the UN incredible doesn't actually refute the evidence that they have.

 

[dust1n]

Me neither! but thats not even a similar situation is it?

if the protesters attacked the police with iron bars they obtained in the full knowledge the police were going to intercept them it would be a similar situation

Sure, I can accept that. But imagine if those protesters breaking curfew were attempting to transport to a section of town that has 60% of its children inadequately fed, say, ten tons of emergency supplies and once the police decended upon them, in a zone where it was illegal to do just that, and they just happened to have baseball bats to protect themselves from the police who where illegally descending to continue an illegal blockade to these starving children, the metaphor seems a little more complete.

 

[dust1n]

Israel gets ambushed by hate-filled terrorists on the high seas and then gets blamed for it. Ever wonder why the UN refused to let Israel conduct an investigation into the attempted murders of their own soldiers?

I hope that first sentence wasn't an attempt to describe the flotilla we are currently discussing.

 

[Bismillah]

so what was the reason? they already knew the Israelis were going to intercept the ship it was no secret so any attempt to repel the Israelis was premeditated why would humanitarians premeditate a violent ambush.

Violent ambush? It was the activists who were met with violence when the Israelis started to rain down bullets and commandos when most of them were sleeping. When someone starts firing a gun at me, I'm not going to lie down supine either.

That could be a mistake from the article then "Gaza does not have a deep sea port designed to receive the kind of cargo" Turkey, the flotilla and Israel: UN report deserves calm reading - International Crisis Group

The Israelis ordered the flotilla to halt, but the ships pressed ahead. About 80 miles away, in the besieged Palestinian territory, the Hamas government had prepared a festive welcome, decking out the territory's ruined port with red Turkish flags.

Flotilla Accounts Begin to Clarify Israeli Raid - CBS News

Not the same article, but the same message. The authorities were ready to welcome the ships and even if the ships themselves couldn't dock to the harbor, it wouldn't be hard to ferry the supplies. I've read that the idea was to unload the supplies on the beach. In any case, it's obvious that the mechanisms needed to make sure the aid was offloaded were in place.

and AKs and RPGs would be military wouldnt it and i dont think Hamas is in short supply of either.

It also would have been a much more deliberate and direct showing of political support. Feeding and clothing hungry children and providing medication for the sick is not wrong. I don't understand who you think it is.

no i wouldnt , the danger present to the boarding party is not ludicrous but very real and put all the people there in very great danger, in my opinion it was reckless stupidity or political expediancy to attack the Boarding party.

You generalizing. It was not the entire ship that attacked the boarding party, they did not have enough bullets to handle that. It was a reaction from a few when they saw the Israelis, preemptively, shooting at the boat. Until you can refute that it was the Israelis who used deadly violence first and continued to use it on defenseless civilians, and still continued to use it while they were detained, there is nothing to talk about.

why would the murder of a US citizen by Israelis put US citizens at risk? and me i ill wait for all the evidence , its far too early and there's far too much propaganda from both sides for my liking.

Because the government treats the lives of Muslim citizens as inferior to those of others. If you don't see the potential as a recruiting tool for Muslim extremists I don't know what to tell you. The headline of America ignoring the death of its own citizen to make sure Israel does not receive any bad PR would be pretty effective on a Jihadi pamphlet. You really have taken a side already, you are now hoping that the biased Israeli investigation, regarding its own activities , will provide evidence to back up your claims.

 

[arimoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o2ZiOPmiVw&feature=player_embedded

Sure, I can accept that. But imagine if those protesters breaking curfew were attempting to transport to a section of town that has 60% of its children inadequately fed, say, ten tons of emergency supplies and once the police decended upon them, in a zone where it was illegal to do just that, and they just happened to have baseball bats to protect themselves from the police who where illegally descending to continue an illegal blockade to these starving children, the metaphor seems a little more complete.

starving children? no body gets more financial help then Palestinians.

New mall in Gaza shows a different side of starvation and oppression - Los Angeles Jewish community | Examiner.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o2ZiOPmiVw&feature=player_embedded

 

[dust1n]

starving children? no body gets more financial help then Palestinians.

New mall in Gaza shows a different side of starvation and oppression - Los Angeles Jewish community | Examiner.com

[youtube]3o2ZiOPmiVw[/youtube]
YouTube - Gaza's First Shopping Mall

That's your argument? We have about a million of those in America, children still starve... next.


Exchange rates
new Israeli shekels per US dollar - 4.482 (2004), 4.5541 (2003), 4.7378 (2002), 4.2057 (2001), 4.0773 (2000)
Exports $301,000,000.00 [157th of 189]
Exports > Commodities citrus, flowers, textiles
Exports to US $100,000.00 [212nd of 224]
GDP $768,000,000.00 [173rd of 203]
GDP (purchasing power parity) $5,034,000,000.00 [159th of 187]
GDP > Composition by sector > Agriculture 8% [80th of 146]
GDP > Composition by sector > Industry 13% [140th of 146]
GDP > Real growth rate -8% [169th of 198]
Human Development Index 0.729 [103rd of 178]
Imports $2,440,000,000.00 [117th of 185]
Inflation rate (consumer prices) 3.6% [99th of 192]
Population below poverty line 80% [1st of 46]
Trade balance with US -$100,000.00 [110th of 224]

NationMaster - Gaza Strip Economy statistics




That was a very poorly written opinion piece.

One shopping mall does not negate that fact that 80% of the population lives below the poverty line and/or are below the age of 20.

 

[Smoke]

Actually, they broke International Law.

That's debatable, to say the least.

But any way you look at it, there is a blockade. Whether people like or not.
As far as I'm concerned, if you run a blockade, you take your chances.
It wouldn't have bothered me if they'd sunk the ship, and considering all the uproar, they might as well have.

 

[Bismillah]

starving children? no body gets more financial help then Palestinians.

New mall in Gaza shows a different side of starvation and oppression - Los Angeles Jewish community | Examiner.com

Meanwhile an unemployed Palestinian man was killed crossing into Israel to feed his family of 6.

That's debatable, to say the least.

But any way you look at it, there is a blockade. Whether people like or not.
As far as I'm concerned, if you run a blockade, you take your chances.
It wouldn't have bothered me if they'd sunk the ship, and considering all the uproar, they might as well have.

Wow. The only thing that is debatable is the legality of the blockade. These were not drug smugglers or weapons armorers. They were shipping humanitarian aid. I can't believe the extents people go to paint Israel as the good guy

 

[Smoke]

They were shipping humanitarian aid.

You mean those expired medicines?