Abrahamic faiths: Free will and predestination

[MD]

How do Abrahamic faiths, who believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, reconcile free will and predestination?

If God is omnipotent, then God created everything. If God is omniscient, then God knows everything that will happen. Thus the universe is deterministic and without free will.

God knows everything that will happen, and has created everything in sequence as to what will happen. Our wills are guided by our brains, and our brains exist in a deterministic universe, in the sequence God created.

Such a God also cannot use judgement to gauge our actions, since he created the conditions and knew of the outcomes before we did. So there is no need to judge, our actions are simply known. And Mercy would be irrelevant and an illusion in such a universe as well.

How do the Abrahamic faiths answer this paradox?

 

[Augustus]

How do the Abrahamic faiths answer this paradox?

Differently

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Knowing isn't the same thing as making something happen. How I understand it is that God simply knows all possible outcomes, but it's up to us to actually make something happen. So God may not even know what specific choice we may make. Whether He does or not, is irrelevant like I said, because it's us making the choice in the first place. God delegated a lot of His power and authority to His creations. So to say He's all-powerful or all-knowing is mostly saying that He is such in potential, but not necessarily in actual action. He works with us and we add to His creation. He is like a Conductor of a cosmic choir or symphony that is always unfinished.

 

[Tarheeler]

How do Abrahamic faiths, who believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, reconcile free will and predestination?

In this statement, are you assuming that all adherents of "Abrahamic" faiths believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, or are you limiting the question to those members of "Abrahamic" faiths who do so?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Knowing isn't the same thing as making something happen. How I understand it is that God simply knows all possible outcomes, but it's up to us to actually make something happen. So God may not even know what specific choice we may make. Whether He does or not, is irrelevant like I said, because it's us making the choice in the first place. God delegated a lot of His power and authority to His creations. So to say He's all-powerful or all-knowing is mostly saying that He is such in potential, but not necessarily in actual action. He works with us and we add to His creation. He is like a Conductor of a cosmic choir or symphony that is always unfinished.

As I understand the argument of free will vs determinism is that you cannot both have chosen and have that path be a certainty before you were created. The unavoidable dilemma being that if God knew what you were going to do before he created you, you could not choose to do otherwise, and thus your path and 'choices' are pre-determined. Not your own.

 

[Deidre]

Maybe the desire for mercy and forgiveness is a human quality, we wish for others to forgive us when we wrong them, etc. So, perhaps we see God as merciful and us as not worthy of His mercy, mainly because of the human component that often accompanies faith. Faith isn't only about believing in a deity, or the supernatural, it can also carry over into how we view ourselves, and as humans, we can only understand this universe on a human level. So, maybe part of this comes down to understanding God from a human point of view, but not as He entirely is. As a believer, I couldn't possibly know what God entirely is.

 

[von bek]

He is like a Conductor of a cosmic choir or symphony that is always unfinished.

Have you ever read The Sillmarion by Tolkien? (May have misspelled it.) I ask because Tolkien describes creation in the manner of a great chorus. The first dark lord, who was originally of the light, introduces discord in creation by singing his own song...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As I understand the argument of free will vs determinism is that you cannot both have chosen and have that path be a certainty before you were created. The unavoidable dilemma being that if God knew what you were going to do before he created you, you could not choose to do otherwise, and thus your path and 'choices' are pre-determined. Not your own.

And my point is that knowing is not the same as making a choice for you. I already went over that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Have you ever read The Sillmarion by Tolkien? (May have misspelled it.) I ask because Tolkien describes creation in the manner of a great chorus. The first dark lord, who was originally of the light, introduces discord in creation by singing his own song...

No, I haven't but I'm familiar with his theological vision, thanks to this essay: The Gift of Iluvatar: Tolkien’s Theological Vision | The Matheson Trust

I find it quite beautiful and a great way to describe it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

However if god knows the destiny of a human as he creates them is he not prescribing it to them?

I already said no. They're two different things.

 

[columbus]

I

However if god knows the destiny of a human as he creates them is he not prescribing it to them?

I have never found Abrahamic explanations for the dichotomy too convincing either. But oceans of ink have been spilled trying to plaster over the obvious contradiction.

Tom

 

[idav]

How do Abrahamic faiths, who believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, reconcile free will and predestination?

If God is omnipotent, then God created everything. If God is omniscient, then God knows everything that will happen. Thus the universe is deterministic and without free will.

God knows everything that will happen, and has created everything in sequence as to what will happen. Our wills are guided by our brains, and our brains exist in a deterministic universe, in the sequence God created.

Such a God also cannot use judgement to gauge our actions, since he created the conditions and knew of the outcomes before we did. So there is no need to judge, our actions are simply known. And Mercy would be irrelevant and an illusion in such a universe as well.

How do the Abrahamic faiths answer this paradox?

Like @Saint Frankenstein mentioned "knowing isn't the same as making something happen". God knowing everything and being able to do everything doesn't mean God is directing everything he knows will happen. The main reason is that omnipotence also means having the power to choose what to do, otherwise God doesn't have free will either.

 

[von bek]

No, I haven't but I'm familiar with his theological vision, thanks to this essay: The Gift of Iluvatar: Tolkien’s Theological Vision | The Matheson Trust

I find it quite beautiful and a great way to describe it.

Tolkien is awesome, in my book. While an obvious Catholic, he also saw beauty and wisdom in pagan tales.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

And my point is that knowing is not the same as making a choice for you. I already went over that.

We're not talking about just knowing, though. My point is if the knowledge is coming from an incontrovertible absolute, from before you were even created and by your creator, then there was no choice. Only predestination. You can't choose against what God already knows is in store for you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We're not talking about just knowing, though. My point is if the knowledge is coming from an incontrovertible absolute, from before you were even created and by your creator, then there was no choice. Only predestination. You can't choose against what God already knows is in store for you.

I keep saying over and over that knowing is not the same as making you do something. If God knows that you're going to do something, so what? It was what you were going to do, anyway. He didn't make you do it or close you off from any other option.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If he literally made you with your destiny in mind, yeah he did.

Which I didn't say He did.

 

[MD]

In this statement, are you assuming that all adherents of "Abrahamic" faiths believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, or are you limiting the question to those members of "Abrahamic" faiths who do so?

The latter, my bad I assumed all adherents of Abrahamic believed in an omnipotent and omniscient God

 

[Stalwart]

However if god knows the destiny of a human as he creates them is he not prescribing it to them?

God loves each of us individually; He would not have us created any other way than how He does create us. So, if His vision of how a given individual ought to be, the circumstances he ought to face, etc. is an array of variables which eventually leads to the person falling short of the mark and ending up in hell, and you wish you refer to that as predestination, then go nuts - but it's still the individual's choices.

One might thus ask 'Why would God create someone knowing that they will end up in hell when it means they are being created just to suffer for all eternity? Wouldn't it be better for them to not be created at all?'

The answer to this is a resounding 'no' - existence is infinitely superior to non-existence, even if it is spent in suffering. At least a soul in hell, having rejected God, knew God in some way - even if they did not perceive Him. God possesses an infinite love for each and every human soul, and He wills that they be created through the Word - so they are. He would evidently prefer that they be members of His creation, and having their eventual place absent from His grace, than to have them never exist at all.

 

[MD]

Knowing isn't the same thing as making something happen. How I understand it is that God simply knows all possible outcomes, but it's up to us to actually make something happen.

So God may not even know what specific choice we may make. Whether He does or not, is irrelevant like I said, because it's us making the choice in the first place. God delegated a lot of His power and authority to His creations. So to say He's all-powerful or all-knowing is mostly saying that He is such in potential, but not necessarily in actual action. He works with us and we add to His creation. He is like a Conductor of a cosmic choir or symphony that is always unfinished.

There are no possible outcomes, if God is all knowing then he will know which outcome we choose. If God introduces limitations on his own knowledge, then that means he can introduce limitations on himself, which means God was never omniscient to begin with.

Also this doesn't take into account the omnipotence factor. An omnipotent God which creates a universe, based on laws, has created a deterministic universe. Everything will happen just the way planned by the laws guided by God. There are no other outcomes nor choices, just one result. If God removes his knowledge after creating you as a deterministic robot to judge your 'choices', then that God is being rather unfair, since you had no choice to begin with in the first place.

Also if an omnipotent God introduces randomness into the equation via quantum mechanics or whatever to illustrate free will, that nullifies his omniscience once again and suggests there are things outside Gods knowledge and thus outside of God.

 

[Skwim]

The latter, my bad I assumed all adherents of Abrahamic believed in an omnipotent and omniscient God

No bad at all. I think your assumption is very reasonable.

As for your OP, this is how I see your argument.

If god can foresee what you will do, how can you do any differently? You couldn't. Therefore you are bound (deterministicly) to do just that. Essentially, you have no say in the matter. Hence, there's no such a thing as free will at work.

However, suppose that what one does is by means of a free will, and that what god sees you doing in the future are simply those things freely chosen at that time: He sees you freely choosing A rather than B in the future. Would his seeing you do this compel you to do it at that time? My thoughts are that it would not. Hence, free will remains intact

That said, I still regard free will as a bankrupt notion.

.