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Abrahamic Faiths: If Jesus wasn't the messiah. Who was he?
- Thread starter Mystic-als
- Start date
What does "being Christ" mean? The Pauline Christ is, at best, an Hellenistic distortion of 2nd Temple Period messianic beliefs. As such, "Christ" can best be thought of as a parasitic fabrication/delusion.Mystic-als said:
On the other hand, the Sayings Tradition fits well with what one might find in an area that gave rise to the Jerusalem sect.
See Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet.
Mystic-als
Active Member
This is why I asked the question. Maybe a christian can answer that for us.Jayhawker Soule said:
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
Mystic-als said:
Christ is merely the Anglicised version of the Greek translation of the Hebrew word also rendered in English as messiah. Hence, the two are synonyms and writing Christ Jesus is exactly the same in meaning as writing Jesus the Messiah.
James
Mystic-als
Active Member
Okay then. Jayhawker Soule - Does that answer your question?
The only issue I have with this is like I said in the beginning. Moses, Abraham, Elijah, David were then also Messiah's. And I suspect this is not going sit well with the Jewish community here at RF
The only issue I have with this is like I said in the beginning. Moses, Abraham, Elijah, David were then also Messiah's. And I suspect this is not going sit well with the Jewish community here at RF
Elessar
Well-Known Member
"Messiah" means "anointed one". Having been anointed at one time by G-d, or, at the behest of G-d, merits the literal title "Messiah". The term "Messiah" as used to refer to Yeshua/Jesus or to the coming Jewish messiah in mainstream Jewish thought is referred to meaning someone anointed the new King of Israel, being the descendant of King David. The term "messiah" is not innately divine in Hebrew as it is in English.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
In the Tanach, moshiach (Messiah) is used 38 times: two patriarchs, six high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David.
Jesus, having not been the messiah, or even A messiah, was just another Jew, only having lived half a life (if we assume he really did die in his 30s).
Jesus, having not been the messiah, or even A messiah, was just another Jew, only having lived half a life (if we assume he really did die in his 30s).
Christians and Messianic Jews do believe that Jesus is/was the Messiah (or Christ). Muslims, I think, believe He was a prophet.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings!
You might find a Baha'i viewpoint of interest and possibly helpful!:
We see Jesus as precisely Who He says He is: specifically, a God-sent Divine Messenger sent to renew religion and to bring humanity God's new teachings for that Day.
As such, He has a most profound status eminently deserving our respect and reverence!
He was not the first such Messenger, nor the last (there will never be a last), and He did promise another would come to teach us the things we weren't then ready to hear.
And our scriptures praise Him most highly!
Best regards,
Bruce
You might find a Baha'i viewpoint of interest and possibly helpful!:
We see Jesus as precisely Who He says He is: specifically, a God-sent Divine Messenger sent to renew religion and to bring humanity God's new teachings for that Day.
As such, He has a most profound status eminently deserving our respect and reverence!
He was not the first such Messenger, nor the last (there will never be a last), and He did promise another would come to teach us the things we weren't then ready to hear.
And our scriptures praise Him most highly!
Best regards,
Bruce
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
According to a Muslim staff member, Jesus is the Messiah.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
First a couple of words on my background, I am a secular Jew, with an interest in World religions.
There are a few possibilities to the persona called Jesus, also I think its important to say, that we don't have enough data to paint a picture to answer the many question of this man who walked the land 2000 years ago.
Reading in the New Testament, can make a Jewish individual see that Jesus taught Jewish wisdom, with a his own approach and focus (anyone who reads the Talmud, can see that different Jewish sages may hold different opinions, and they are all part of the discourse), he wittily summed the core Mitzvoth (commandments) into loving God, and loving your neighbors, and expanded it to loving your enemies and those who hurt you.
To give you a spicy answer, I will say that throughout pagan history, different mythological and historical figures strived for apotheosis, and the Christians of the later-early centuries (perhaps when it struck roots in pagan societies) indeed gave Jesus his apotheosis. but I believe that if there was a persona called Jesus, that walked the holy land two thousands years ago and preached unselfish love, he knew his message would be abused and become neglected when idolized(who can really live up to it? especially in a violent world, like the kind of many of the past centuries), he would understand the disaster of his deification on the expanse of his message and teachings, it would mean people would idolize him for many centuries, discard his message, and march into foreign land with the cross in their hands.
some of the account of the New Testament, give us the image of a man who, to teach his proud and thick students humility, washed their feet. who layed down his life because of his radical message, not the kind of man who would want to be idolized, and by that become an icon and not a man, and more importantly a man with a message.
The historical-mythological aspect is interesting, it can give us a glimpse of the mythology of Christianity and Jesus, to see the profound similarities between Paganism and fundamental Christian dogma. virgin birth, crucifiction, calendarial chronology and many more.
There is a deep interplay between paganism and early Christianity, as there was always an interplay between monotheistic and polytheistic faiths.
as I said in another thread, after 70 AD there were two forms of Judaism: Rabbinical Judaism, and Christianity. Christianity came to be adopted as the beacon of Western civilization, and naturally it had to go through cultural adaptations. Jesus became an icon, he had to fit into cultural contexts and agendas, to the politics and social issues of centuries past (and modern times as well).
I suppose I have much more to write about this, but this intro is my 2 cents for now.
There are a few possibilities to the persona called Jesus, also I think its important to say, that we don't have enough data to paint a picture to answer the many question of this man who walked the land 2000 years ago.
Reading in the New Testament, can make a Jewish individual see that Jesus taught Jewish wisdom, with a his own approach and focus (anyone who reads the Talmud, can see that different Jewish sages may hold different opinions, and they are all part of the discourse), he wittily summed the core Mitzvoth (commandments) into loving God, and loving your neighbors, and expanded it to loving your enemies and those who hurt you.
To give you a spicy answer, I will say that throughout pagan history, different mythological and historical figures strived for apotheosis, and the Christians of the later-early centuries (perhaps when it struck roots in pagan societies) indeed gave Jesus his apotheosis. but I believe that if there was a persona called Jesus, that walked the holy land two thousands years ago and preached unselfish love, he knew his message would be abused and become neglected when idolized(who can really live up to it? especially in a violent world, like the kind of many of the past centuries), he would understand the disaster of his deification on the expanse of his message and teachings, it would mean people would idolize him for many centuries, discard his message, and march into foreign land with the cross in their hands.
some of the account of the New Testament, give us the image of a man who, to teach his proud and thick students humility, washed their feet. who layed down his life because of his radical message, not the kind of man who would want to be idolized, and by that become an icon and not a man, and more importantly a man with a message.
The historical-mythological aspect is interesting, it can give us a glimpse of the mythology of Christianity and Jesus, to see the profound similarities between Paganism and fundamental Christian dogma. virgin birth, crucifiction, calendarial chronology and many more.
There is a deep interplay between paganism and early Christianity, as there was always an interplay between monotheistic and polytheistic faiths.
as I said in another thread, after 70 AD there were two forms of Judaism: Rabbinical Judaism, and Christianity. Christianity came to be adopted as the beacon of Western civilization, and naturally it had to go through cultural adaptations. Jesus became an icon, he had to fit into cultural contexts and agendas, to the politics and social issues of centuries past (and modern times as well).
I suppose I have much more to write about this, but this intro is my 2 cents for now.
Last edited:
Abdu Samad
Member
I have been wondering about this for some time now.
If Jesus wasn't the messiah could he still be Christ. Like Abraham or Moses for example.
I would really like to hear a Jewish perspective on this.
And logician assume he was alive.
Messiah neither mean son of GOD nor GOD. Jesus was a mortal human like all other Prophets such as Noah Abraham Moses and Mohammad (Peace be upon all of them). There were different only that they used to receive revelations from GOD. All were mortal humans, so they all have been died
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Ask yourself:
1) What does 'messiah' mean?
2) What qualifies someone?
3) Who were the previous messiah's?
If you answer these questions with logical consistency, you'd see that any and everyone is capable of being messianic. We are all messianic, from time to time. And if you're familiar with the previous messiahs, you might also realize that the bar isn't set all that high.
1) What does 'messiah' mean?
2) What qualifies someone?
3) Who were the previous messiah's?
If you answer these questions with logical consistency, you'd see that any and everyone is capable of being messianic. We are all messianic, from time to time. And if you're familiar with the previous messiahs, you might also realize that the bar isn't set all that high.
Tumah
Veteran Member
According to the Jewish religion, there's really not any room to paint Jesus in a positive light. He led Jews away from the Rabbis towards his own ideology which eventually lead to what is considered idol-worship by Judaism. So for us, he is nothing more than another in the list of Jews gone astray who try to lead others off the path with them.
Tumah
Veteran Member
I don't think you actually understood the Bar Kokba story based on this comment. The same reason Bar Kokba wasn't the Messiah, Jesus also couldn't be. Bar Kokba died. That was the kicker. That was the point. Being the Messiah is only about fulfilling the prophecies. Unless they are fulfilled, there is no messiah. Bar Kokba seemed to be on his way to fulfilling prophecies, so Rabbi Akiva thought him to be the Messiah. As soon as he died, he realized that Bar Kokba couldn't have been the Messiah.
Even if Jesus didn't have all the other problems that he did, as soon as his heart stopped beating blood to his brain, his opportunity to become the Messiah dropped to 0%
Tumah
Veteran Member
There's not such thing as being too technical. The machine works the way it does for a reason.
There was no resurrection.
It was only important for the proto-Christians who still wanted to believe that Jesus was the Messiah despite the clear unequivocal evidence to the contrary that his death provided. So with a little waving of the magic wand (read: tweaking of the facts) and prest-o change-o, our man Jesus is back in action.
To live in reality, like Rabbi Akiva, a person needs to be able to admit his mistake.
Tumah
Veteran Member
You don't need a prophecy to say the Messiah would not die. Once he dies, he didn't do what fulfill the prophecy. That's the down side of dying.
Are you asking if Jews are capable of lying???
That seems like a silly question. I don't think being Jewish lends any voracity to a person's testimony.
Also, before you respond, think about whether Jews may have testified about other religions, both before and after Jesus and whether their being Jewish should lend their testimony any truth as well.
Lastly, decide whether you think Jews are people too, with foibles both minor and major, just like the next
Tumah
Veteran Member
Not the prophets. The people who are meant to fulfill prophecies. If they die before they fulfill a prophecy, they have not fulfilled the prophecy. Retroactively, that means they were not the ones who were supposed to fulfill the prophecy in the first place.
If Solomon had died before the First Temple had been built, we would have understood that the dead Solomon was not the one intended to build the Temple and we would expect a different Solomon to come along. Similarly, when Bar Kokhba died, we understand that he is not the one to be the Messiah and we expect a different one to come around.
That wasn't the question though was it. You asked me if Jews would lie. I pointed out that being Jewish does not prevent a person from lying. Hopefully for you, your religious belief is not based on the fact that they were Jews and wouldn't have lied. Because that is a very weak argument.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
Certainly you must understand that there are fundamental difference between what Christians hold to about Jesus and what Jews hold to about the same subject.
This vicious personal attack on a fellow poster who disagrees with you was certainly both childish and totally unwarranted.