Abrahamic Faiths: If Jesus wasn't the messiah. Who was he?

[rosends]

I don't recall saying that Bar Kochba was a superior candidate but if I didn't, I should have. In each generation there is a candidate. None has panned out just yet.

The issue isn't that Jesus died, per se. It isn't the dying but the timing -- if he dies before he accomplishes what is required, he could not have been the messiah. It is as simple as that. No second chances. A claim of resurrection, even if remotely believable, would not resolve anything because the same requirements weren't fulfilled when he was supposedly resurrected.

 

[rosends]

To my understanding, Jesus, if he existed was someone who maybe was a student of his religion who, for whatever reason, chose to reform the religion by focusing on character and not practice, except when practice meant something to him. He offered simple answers to complex questions and attracted some Jews and others who liked what he was selling. He wasn't the first and sadly wasn't the last to do this same thing.

 

[rosends]

Moses happens to be dead. His yahrzeit just passed.

 

[rosends]

What you neglect to understand is that he prioritized Law which you call "the Torah" with itty bitty laws of tradition and men being as important as higher Law. Still you attempt to make Deut 30 speak of the Torah as a whole instead of Shema, upon which all the prophets and Law hang.

Also that Shema was not fulfilled by men, is the reason why a New Covenant was required, and that through Jesus only is this accomplished. No man is righteous, because no man but one ever fulfilled Shema from the beginning of his life to the end. Reasonably speaking this was impossible for man, ever since Adam did his dirty deed. So now the Sovereign will of YHWH Elohim foretells and designs a new Way. This way is forever ignored by present day orthodox Jewry.

He prioritized law? Lets assume for a moment that that made sense. And lets assume he had the authority, learning, and experience to do that. All that would make him is a teacher. A human, mortal teacher who died. So what?

You like to insist that the Sh'ma was not fulfilled and that's why a new covenant was needed. That's your prerogative. I say it was and that's why a new covenant isn't needed. Your assertion is the bedrock of your theological construct. I deny it and the house you built on that foundation.

 

[Harmonious]

He was and is Messiah. Nicodemus the Pharisee saw it. Peter and his brother saw it. Mary Magdelene saw it. Did I forget anyone?

If you believe in the scriptures that Christians call "New Testament." However... In Jewish learning, I don't even know who Nichodemus is. (He was the learned rat in "Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH", is what I know.)

He might be someone important in your belief system. He doesn't even rate in my KNOWLEDGE base, never mind belief system. So... Just because these people means something to you doesn't mean anything outside of your belief system.

Was your Simon Bar Kokba a better Messiah, as Rosends said theoretically?

Yup, he was. Well... he was a better Messianic candidate. The fact that he was killed before he brought about world peace and Jewish dominion of Israel (let's just take those two, for starters) show that he wasn't the Messiah. Jesus didn't do those things, either. And what's more is that Jesus didn't have the right genealogy.

So... Bar Kochba was a better candidate than Jesus was, but even then, neither was actually the Messiah.

Jesus fulfilled Moses' Word from God.

Eh. Keeping the commandments is an ongoing commitment. Based on what I've read of the gospels, Jesus wasn't very good at keeping a lot of the commandments, so saying that "he fulfilled the law" has no meaning for Jews.

 

[Harmonious]

What you neglect to understand is that he prioritized Law which you call "the Torah" with itty bitty laws of tradition and men being as important as higher Law.

I love how you are attempting to tell Jews what it is that we believe, and how we neglect to understand the laws by which we live.

The rest of your post was meaningless, as you go on to tell us how you believe that it is impossible to live by our laws.

It may have escaped your knowledge, but we have no need to be perfect, in order to have fulfilled our obligation of following our laws.

Jesus, in the gospels, created the concept. And Jesus, in the gospels, announced the impossibility. And Jesus, in the gospels, announced that he was the fix to the idea that no one can be perfect, and so everyone must be found wanting without his intervention.

Isn't that ducky for him? But it is meaningless for Jews who strive to live by Torah law. We may not be perfect, or even very successful. But the fact that we keep trying is what God reminded us is what is important.

 

[rosends]

"This does not include emphasizing itty bitty laws to be over the higher ones."
Nope, not over. Same as.
והיה עקב תשמעון: אם המצות הקלות שאדם דש בעקביו תשמעון (תנחומא א

 

[rosends]

Equality of Law was never considered by ancient Judaism. Just as every man has another over him and those under him. I despise EQUALITY being a consideration of anything at all. All laws have laws over and under it, except Shema the highest Law of all. It would behoove you to know this, being a rabbi yourself an' all.

It would behoove you to know that you are wrong and that my assessment of what Judaism demanded is a mite better than your assessment, being that I'm a rabbi and all.

 

[Harmonious]

Have you done Shema, sir from the infant stage to now?

First of all, I'm female. Second: What IS Shema?

Yes, I've recited it. I have heard it. And I believe it. The Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

I love God. I believe in God, and more or less, have done my best. I've learned Torah, and spoken it when I sit at home, and when I go on the way, and when I lie down, and when I stand up. I don't have kids, so I haven't taught them. I'm not a guy, so I have no obligation to wear Tefillin. When I was married, for the short time I was, I made sure we had Mezuzot on all of our door posts.

God said ALL of your heart mind and the all of you, the utterly you. Have you done this faithfully sir, not relatively speaking but in letter as the letter of Law stated?

You have no idea what the letter of the law is. I have kept as many commandments, and continue to keep as many commandments as I am able.

No, perfection was never required, loyalty, trust and maximum effort was. This does not include emphasizing itty bitty laws to be over the higher ones.

And who do you think you are to say which are the greater ones and which are the lesser ones?

I work hard to keep the laws between man and man as well as the laws between man and God. I'm honest in my business dealings. I try to refrain from evil speech. I keep Kosher and Shabbat, and the other holidays. When I was married, I kept the laws of "family purity." Those only pertain to married couples, so I've got nothing to do with them.

I honor the passing of my mother and brother. I honor my father by taking care of him to the best of my ability.

Again: who are you to say which are the big commandments and which are the "itty bitty" ones? We are commanded to fulfill those we have in hand to fulfill.

It wasn't that you were never perfect, it was that you did not corporately follow the Shema to the standard God required.

You have no idea what you are talking about. There is no "standard" for listening and adhering. We do our best, and God will do the rest.

What man knows the end of Shema? No man knows what God requires.

Funny enough, that is what the purpose of the exegesis of Torah law IS. It is an explanation of what God actually requires.

Jesus said it was in fact much more than what was being presented by his own.

And in my estimation, Jesus was irrelevant. He created a "standard" that was never there. And you bought it.

I get it. It means something to you. But please... Don't foist him on US.

You are in fact entirely true here. But a man who daily tries to do Shema to his uttermost also is viscerally also aware of his failures.

And it's our job to focus on those failures once a year: between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.

For the rest of the year, it's our job to keep truckin', doing our best, working hard, and who knows? We'll get a few things right along the way.

 

[Tumah]

Maybe YOU don't understand it was the destruction of the people and the Temple which made his leadership as "star of whatever" suspect.

Says you?
The passage that actually has the story doesn't say that...

All testimonies are either lies or true. There's no in-between. I have good reason for believing the NT testimonies true. You don't apparently, so then present evidence or take a back seat, please.

I'm not attacking your belief in the NT here. I'm attacking the idea you suggested, that as Jews, they would not have lied to someone.

 

[Tumah]

All God was saying was that YOUR BEST is not up to His standards. I know this for myself. What makes a Jew THINK he did Shema to God's satisfaction? Same notion my heathen dad had. As an MD he did HIS BEST to uphold the hippocratic oath...

Oh, please. If G-d desired a certain standard in Shema (whatever that is even supposed to mean), He would have wrote it down, the same as He wanted a certain number of days in Passover and a certain number of corners be-fringed.
Everything you write in this post is pure Christian drivel, entirely formulated on the books of a few [not so good] men trying to hijack an entire religion for themselves.

 

[metis]

You attribute what Jesus said to what we say. We are not ashamed of saying what Jesus said. You are ashamed of your own Messiach. This is not you, not what you need to do either.

The standard was plain, Peshat Law. ALL of your heart soul and might, even to the sacrifice of your own, or you in fact. Abraham's faith was just this. God over his own beloved son. Who among you has this faith? If required, will you do?

How can be "ashamed of [our] Messiach" when he hasn't come? You simply have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Tumah]

You attribute what Jesus said to what we say. We are not ashamed of saying what Jesus said. You are ashamed of your own Messiach. This is not you, not what you need to do either.

The standard was plain, Peshat Law. ALL of your heart soul and might, even to the sacrifice of your own, or you in fact. Abraham's faith was just this. God over his own beloved son. Who among you has this faith? If required, will you do?

I am not ashamed of my own messiah. When he will come, I will rush to put on my Sabbath finest to greet him, in his honor, just like everyone else. But I will not make the mistake that so many have made by believing in false messiahs, like Jesus and Sabbatai Tzvi and everyone in between (that's right, Jesus was only one in a long line).

Who among us??? Do you have any idea how many Jews over the past 2,000 years did this??? And how many of them did it because Christians were forcing them to convert?? Thousands. Tens of thousands. Go read about the Inquisition. Go learn about the Crusades. There were Jews that danced to their deaths, happy to martyr themselves in G-d's Name, during WW II. Every Jew is required to accept on himself martyrdom to sanctify G-d's Name in the recitation of the Shema. I have made my own personal preparations with my family in case I am ever worthy to fulfill this commandment.

 

[Flankerl]

Otherwise how we iron out our differences?

Ridiculous premise. Different Religions have differences.

There is no need at all to "iron out differences". Differences exist, which is why there are different Religions.

 

[Tumah]

Keep telling you Jesus is he. He who does not believe is already died in his sins. No man claimed what Jesus did. Not Sabbatini or Kokbha. Not Houdini or Hounoswhat.

Yes, you do keep mentioning it. However, I told you so, or He told me so, is not the basis with which I put my belief. Thanks anyway.

Good, but you ain't done it from start to finish. One would come who loved God from his mother's breast. Psalm 22. I applaud your affirmation of Shema. I personally don't know I can even take it to the end as you proclaim. I will have to but knowing how terrible this is, know also the possibility my strength will fail. Torture is of course the demon and principality prohibitive.

There are no commandments in Psalms. Only in the Pentateuch.

Unlike Rosends and another woman here, you at least know this Law is possibly the hardest to do of all, right?

This is not the hardest Law to do. Lev. 18:5 is the hardest Law to do.
Martyrdom is one decision one time, and once its over, one doesn't have to live with the repercussions. But every moment that one lives one has to calculate whether one is fulfilling G-d's expectations of the person for that moment to the best of one's ability. As I pointed out in another thread, denying oneself the opportunity to regain one's sight in favor of keeping G-d's commandment of the Sabbath is much harder, because who knows how long one will live with the suffering inherent in that decision.

 

[Tumah]

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

This was Jesus. Anointed from birth, and increased throughout his life. LOVE, baby come in the hope of God even before he could say it. What is Shema? LUVVV, baby. To your God, YHWH Elohim. This is what we call "faith." Loyalty, love, trust.

Sorry no matter how you quote it, this is still not a commandment.
Also, this is about Israel. See Isa. 46:3

All Law has priority and the Shema is the highest of all. Doing all the extended commands and commands of men (rabbis) on top of commandments of men was not meant.

Says you.
I'll go with Deut. 17:11

True, and true. And true. Not even most Jews know this. The daily doing of Shema however also teaches us daily when we have failed in letter to do it. We have in our gospels a woman who gave all she had and Jesus said her few pence to the Church kitty was her own righteousness, what...no law says give all you have except Shema. Judaic Law has PORTIONS of what you have. No Jew law said to follow a rabbi literally with your life, even to neglecting lower laws. Jesus' did require this. And actually God sometimes does too.

There is no Jewish Law that requires giving up one's life in favor of a Rabbinical enactment. With the exception of the case when a decree is made against the Jews that they may not follow Jewish Law. Then one is even required to give up one's life over simple customs.

 

[Flankerl]

So then stating these differences is the only objective here on the forum? I knew most or all of them already. So did you know all Christians believe on the Christ. What now, the baby back ribs?

Personally I think this sub forum isn't even the right place for such a debate as this sub forum is usually for Christians vs Christians, Jews vs Jews, Buddhists vs Buddhists etc.

And you are writing this to someone who thinks that the term "Abrahamic Faith" is pure BS.

 

[Tumah]

Israel ever loved God from their suckling stage? HUH?

Is that what the verse says?

Who said it was command? It is Jesus fulfilling the Command, the Greatest One under the Sun, sir.

Earlier you used these verses to suggest that there was a bar that needed to be reached in order to fulfill the commandment of loving G-d. I am pointing out that Psalms is not a valid reference for determining commandments.

11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.

Who is they, the mind thinking rabbis or the Spirit indwelt patriarchs, kings and prophets? Do you even know what the difference is?

I don't think I am obligated to know what you believe it is. I am obligated to know what it is. Which incidentally is not what you believe it is. You will notice that the verse makes no mention of spirits.

No, you are not to give up your life over customs at all. You are to give your life up to God when required. Burning of incense at a Roman altar would give example of. Denying YHWH Elohim in name would be example of. Bowing to Caesar as God incarnate would be example of. Idolatry of wood or cast iron "gods" would be example of, if forced upon. Not knowing this difference is not knowing the truth I am telling you.

Says you.
However, we believe if someone is persecuting our religion as a whole, then no individual Law, enactment or custom can be annulled.

 

[Flankerl]

Your Religion tried to hijack our Religion.

Great Achievement and I am really glad that Islam did the same to yours.


Quite honestly I don't really care for the Greco-Roman opinion about my Religion. The times where we had to "shut up or else..." are over.
You are of course free to have your opinion but I don't really feel like faking some vague interest.

 

[rosends]

Rabbi confused or rabbi definitive? Rabbis come and go. Maybe I am your rabbi, never can tell. I tell my wife I am more Buddha than her. Does she believe me after 10 years of marriage? What does it matter in relation to objective truth?

Well, this rabbis is still here and you are still wrong, buddha buddy.