Abrahamic Faiths: If Jesus wasn't the messiah. Who was he?

[rosends]

Well you can call me buddha buddy or whatever you want. "Rabbi" might suffice too. "Sifu" ifn you were Asian. "Master" ifn you was in a dojo.

Onliest thing I gotta tell you at this point is that Jesus prioritized Law and the smudging of the itty bitty ones with the biggies is what rabbi's are confused about even now, modern times. Jesus told you and me. And I got it. You however are down there with the slaves of Egypt, not knowing much at all except carrying them rocks up the pyramids.

Well all this is says you, not says Jesus. If he wasn't so dead and was here, I'd tell him he is wrong also. If he is half the Jew you think he is, he'd agree with me.

 

[rosends]

He isn't so dead at all. He was resurrected, a primary consideration for us. All Jew, by all accounts, even his detractors. No Greek or Chinese. Not a whit Mexican either.

Nah, he wasn't "resurrected." Dead is as dead does. And he was only a Jew if you think he ever was alive. I'm not so sure.

 

[metis]

He isn't so dead at all. He was resurrected, a primary consideration for us. All Jew, by all accounts, even his detractors. No Greek or Chinese. Not a whit Mexican either.

I was resurrected. Prove me wrong.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

I was certainly resurrected, I have medical records to prove my death 24/ 02/82

 

[Desert Snake]

Your Religion tried to hijack our Religion.

Great Achievement and I am really glad that Islam did the same to yours.


Quite honestly I don't really care for the Greco-Roman opinion about my Religion. The times where we had to "shut up or else..." are over.
You are of course free to have your opinion but I don't really feel like faking some vague interest.

Shalom!
Actually it's a different religion, that uses some of the same texts. The way the texts are interpreted is very different, however. In this sense, there isn't a borrowing of the type that you seem to be regarding, but rather a parallel /text and geography wise/ religion. Both religions developed after the Torah/Tanakh were written, comparing the religions only in a Biblical text paradigm does no one any good, merely confuses.

 

[Flankerl]

What you doing here, then? No interest ain't worth much. Many rabbis are hard-nosed orthodox OPPOSED to Jesus for the "damage" he hath done. So start your rhetoric.

Your Jesus never proved to be a theological danger to Judaism. The danger was always coming from his followers.

What kind of rhetoric? Be a nice human being, live a righteous life and leave us Jews alone.

Messiah was proven by his works. No wars which you lost. Healings. No political leadership. Guide to the Father, YHWH Elohim. No finery of clothes or royal pomp. Left these to Herod and his minions. No traditions of men proclaimed. Your mistake if you do.

By his works? Yeah I am totally enjoying this everlasting peace we have on this planet. It's just a bit hard to find between all the slaughtering going on.

But Mr Christian, Herod was one of your guys. A Roman lapdog, like Christianity though it took a while.


Also could you rewrite the rest in a more non-rambling kind of way? I always got my problems with Users like you who end up writing such weird sentences.

o
Shalom!
Actually it's a different religion, that uses some of the same texts. The way the texts are interpreted is very different, however. In this sense, there isn't a borrowing of the type that you seem to be regarding, but rather a parallel /text and geography wise/ religion. Both religions developed after the Torah/Tanakh were written, comparing the religions only in a Biblical text paradigm does no one any good, merely confuses.

Parallel? Yeah no Christianity was half a Millennium late to the party.
Oh and some of the same texts? Nice Greco-Roman copy and paste with the occasional "fix" of the TaNaKh.
You know if we had been forced to write down the Oral Law earlier than we did Christianity would have probably copied that too.

 

[Tumah]

Sorry didn't see this one. If you mess up the quote, I don't think it sends me the alert.

Says Jesus would be the one who loved God from his mother's breast. What you think, did Israel ever do this or not?

Psa. 22:10 doesn't say anything about loving G-d. It says:
Because you took me out of the womb; [you] secured me on my mother's breasts.

This is Israel who G-d is said to have drawn out of the womb and then provided us with food in the desert.

The words ALL in Shema and UTTERLY YOU in Shema mean exactly what is plainly said. How can I say it plainer?

Yes, but it is not referring to something measurable. Obviously it is not referring to the physical heart. Therefore there is no way to quantify who is and is not fulfilling this verse with all their heart. Perhaps every Jew is already fulfilling this commandment.

What is the difference between a lawyer who dissects scripture to apply to the variables at hand, and the prophet who has the Word of God upon his lips? Not knowing this is your liability sir.

There is a great difference. Once Moses has prophesied his prophecy, there will never be a prophet as great as him, therefore no prophet may contradict or add to, what Moses has already said. However, a 'lawyer' can dissect Moses' prophecy to apply it, to the variables at hand.

What customs? Orthodox Jewish custom? Or one of the other major denom Judaic customs? See your problemo? These are disputed from the git-go. I.e. they do not exactly match up.

This is not a problem. For me (and for the various customs of the various denominations of Orthodox Jewry) it is the individual customs that I have, that I may not abolish. For them, if they follow this Law, then it is their customs.[/QUOTE]

 

[Flankerl]

Left alone to your own devices? Jesus came to be your device to the Father, thank you. Just sharing, is this a capital offense?

Yeah it kinda is.

btw are you one of those Christians who believe that we Jews ruled over the Romans and threatened them to kill your Jesus?

True dat. I evangelize Christians too, to no longer slave under the Roman collar.

Christianity in itself is Roman. Sorry about that.

Soorey. Weird is as weird does. John the Baptist was both weird and hoary. Just like God chooses the weird ones, yeah?

No this is a Forum so write normal. Otherwise you will be one of those crazy people no one takes for real. Which is kinda ruining your own plan to spread your teachings.

Ain't you got anything nice to say? Like we sprung offen you to begin with. Let's party and be happy, in the God-sense at least.

Please leave us alone is rather nice.

 

[outhouse]

Great Achievement and I am really glad that Islam did the same to yours.

Kind of petty isn't it?


Are you really glad?

 

[Unification]

I have been wondering about this for some time now.
If Jesus wasn't the messiah could he still be Christ. Like Abraham or Moses for example.
I would really like to hear a Jewish perspective on this.
And logician assume he was alive.

The messianic seed is one that grows within the human. The heart/mind giving birth to a "man child." Not a literal child but a seed of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. The natural, outward man looks for God externally and a conquering and reigning kingdom here on literal Earth, when the kingdom is within, and not of this world. It's spiritual, the inner man, a higher conscious of being. The concept of God coming in the flesh has been highly distorted. God does come in the flesh, just INSIDE of the human. The seed that grows within. Everything is done "through" and "in" Christ, personification for the physcial body that we reside in. The blood is in all humans. Every human has a physical body that their soul resides in to carry out creation. Every human has a spirit of life and consciousness. It is not their own, but given by God.

 

[Unification]

Not the prophets. The people who are meant to fulfill prophecies. If they die before they fulfill a prophecy, they have not fulfilled the prophecy. Retroactively, that means they were not the ones who were supposed to fulfill the prophecy in the first place.
If Solomon had died before the First Temple had been built, we would have understood that the dead Solomon was not the one intended to build the Temple and we would expect a different Solomon to come along. Similarly, when Bar Kokhba died, we understand that he is not the one to be the Messiah and we expect a different one to come around.



That wasn't the question though was it. You asked me if Jews would lie. I pointed out that being Jewish does not prevent a person from lying. Hopefully for you, your religious belief is not based on the fact that they were Jews and wouldn't have lied. Because that is a very weak argument.

Solomon's temple was built... Within his head, heart, and body.

 

[Unification]

There's not such thing as being too technical. The machine works the way it does for a reason.

There was no resurrection.
It was only important for the proto-Christians who still wanted to believe that Jesus was the Messiah despite the clear unequivocal evidence to the contrary that his death provided. So with a little waving of the magic wand (read: tweaking of the facts) and prest-o change-o, our man Jesus is back in action.

To live in reality, like Rabbi Akiva, a person needs to be able to admit his mistake.

According to the Jewish religion, there's really not any room to paint Jesus in a positive light. He led Jews away from the Rabbis towards his own ideology which eventually lead to what is considered idol-worship by Judaism. So for us, he is nothing more than another in the list of Jews gone astray who try to lead others off the path with them.

Resurrection occurs within.

The Rabbi's taught lies, an external God, a God in the sky condemning and bringing wrath on anyone who didn't abide or believe in their traditions and doctrines of meer man.
Sounds like many pastors and priests in Christianity also.

Doing things in vain, outward works of literal festivals when the feasts all occur within, the altar of God is built within, the animal being sacrificed is the carnality of the human. The house of God and tabernacle of God is within. Spiritual. Yet all done of vain meaningless outward works of the fleshly, natural human.

 

[Unification]

"Messiah" means "anointed one". Having been anointed at one time by G-d, or, at the behest of G-d, merits the literal title "Messiah". The term "Messiah" as used to refer to Yeshua/Jesus or to the coming Jewish messiah in mainstream Jewish thought is referred to meaning someone anointed the new King of Israel, being the descendant of King David. The term "messiah" is not innately divine in Hebrew as it is in English.

King of the spiritual human.

 

[Unification]

Sorry didn't see this one. If you mess up the quote, I don't think it sends me the alert.

Psa. 22:10 doesn't say anything about loving G-d. It says:
Because you took me out of the womb; [you] secured me on my mother's breasts.

This is Israel who G-d is said to have drawn out of the womb and then provided us with food in the desert.


Yes, but it is not referring to something measurable. Obviously it is not referring to the physical heart. Therefore there is no way to quantify who is and is not fulfilling this verse with all their heart. Perhaps every Jew is already fulfilling this commandment.


There is a great difference. Once Moses has prophesied his prophecy, there will never be a prophet as great as him, therefore no prophet may contradict or add to, what Moses has already said. However, a 'lawyer' can dissect Moses' prophecy to apply it, to the variables at hand.


This is not a problem. For me (and for the various customs of the various denominations of Orthodox Jewry) it is the individual customs that I have, that I may not abolish. For them, if they follow this Law, then it is their customs.

[/QUOTE]

Manna in the desert is not literal food coming from the literal sky in the literal desert.

 

[Unification]

If you believe in the scriptures that Christians call "New Testament." However... In Jewish learning, I don't even know who Nichodemus is. (He was the learned rat in "Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH", is what I know.)

He might be someone important in your belief system. He doesn't even rate in my KNOWLEDGE base, never mind belief system. So... Just because these people means something to you doesn't mean anything outside of your belief system.

Yup, he was. Well... he was a better Messianic candidate. The fact that he was killed before he brought about world peace and Jewish dominion of Israel (let's just take those two, for starters) show that he wasn't the Messiah. Jesus didn't do those things, either. And what's more is that Jesus didn't have the right genealogy.

So... Bar Kochba was a better candidate than Jesus was, but even then, neither was actually the Messiah.

Eh. Keeping the commandments is an ongoing commitment. Based on what I've read of the gospels, Jesus wasn't very good at keeping a lot of the commandments, so saying that "he fulfilled the law" has no meaning for Jews.

The entire New Testament is the Old Testament.

 

[Unification]

Sorry no matter how you quote it, this is still not a commandment.
Also, this is about Israel. See Isa. 46:3



Says you.
I'll go with Deut. 17:11



There is no Jewish Law that requires giving up one's life in favor of a Rabbinical enactment. With the exception of the case when a decree is made against the Jews that they may not follow Jewish Law. Then one is even required to give up one's life over simple customs.

Actually, just about all of the laws are giving up ones own natural, animalistic, carnal, external God life and becoming a inner, spiritual being through the physical body that one resides in composed of blood and where God resides, internally. You are the house of God.

 

[Unification]

Sorry no matter how you quote it, this is still not a commandment.
Also, this is about Israel. See Isa. 46:3



Says you.
I'll go with Deut. 17:11



There is no Jewish Law that requires giving up one's life in favor of a Rabbinical enactment. With the exception of the case when a decree is made against the Jews that they may not follow Jewish Law. Then one is even required to give up one's life over simple customs.

What is Israel to God, a literal nation of ethnic literal Jews or a combined, universal spiritual nation?

 

[Unification]

Oh, please. If G-d desired a certain standard in Shema (whatever that is even supposed to mean), He would have wrote it down, the same as He wanted a certain number of days in Passover and a certain number of corners be-fringed.
Everything you write in this post is pure Christian drivel, entirely formulated on the books of a few [not so good] men trying to hijack an entire religion for themselves.

It should be written in the head and heart, within, spiritually.

One Passover should be enough for any human, human leaving Egypt(slavery to sin) and being cleansed within the mind and heart, having no more leaven(sin) left in their house(body). Natural man entering rest in the Lord and becoming new and whole and pure.

 

[Unification]

Says you?
The passage that actually has the story doesn't say that...


I'm not attacking your belief in the NT here. I'm attacking the idea you suggested, that as Jews, they would not have lied to someone.

The idea is the destruction of the temple(human mind and heart) left empty and desolate due to one's own ways and will and vanity, one being brought low and humbled, removed from their own throne and built up in God.

 

[Harmonious]

The entire New Testament is the Old Testament.

No. The Christian scriptures may mean something to you, but the Jewish scriptures are the only ones I recognize as truth.