Abrahamic religions can be hazardous to you health

[MoonWater]

Those of us who see the threat can only bring it to the attention of others, many time an evil is hidden behind the veil of goodness and love. I'm certainly not going to propose that behind all religions are this lurking evil, most religious people do wonderful things, but these dogmatic mindsets and rigid thinking often seep through all the good intentions, and all religions have their radical extremists, these are very dangerous people. My vision of a better world would be one of religion being kept personal, keep it's teachings in the home or the church and out of public life. I do believe Jesus told his followers to do the same.

So why do you advocate against the religions themselves? Why not advocate against these dogmatic mindsets instead, since they seem to be the root of problem

 

[richardlowellt]

but you didn't answer my question: if the religion itself causes such things then why do these "varying degree's of rigidity" exist? It would seem to me that if religion were responsible for the actions of these people then everyone who followed said religions would act this way rather than just a handful. So maybe you can explain to me why this is not the case.

Sure I can, many poor and uneducated people are easily blinded by their religion, although thats not always the case, many people simply do not understand the basics of how science works so they fall victim of religious dogma. In a resent example here on this site a well spoken person claimed the weather was controlled by Allah, could not understand why it would rain in some areas and there would be a drought in others, not matter how we tried to convince he could only believe Allah's special angels controlled the weather. Gullibility, uneducated, all contribute to religious blinding.

 

[dragynfly0515]

So why do you advocate against the religions themselves? Why not advocate against these dogmatic mindsets instead, since they seem to be the root of problem

This is indeed the problem. All religions contain a spirituality, which is what the positive aspect that the adherents are benefiting from. Its the dogma in religion that polarizes and leads to persecution and violence. If we could divorce dogma from spirituality maybe we could keep what's beneficial about religion and do away with its negative aspects.

:candle:
Crys

 

[OmarKhayyam]

This is indeed the problem. All religions contain a spirituality, which is what the positive aspect that the adherents are benefiting from.
:candle:
Crys

Please explain to me what "benefits" are derived from believing in fairies demons and things that go bump in the nite? Did you fail to grow up? Did you not leave your invisible friend from childhood behind?

Just WHAT are these "benefits" you speak of?

 

[Perfect Circle]

Please explain to me what "benefits" are derived from believing in fairies demons and things that go bump in the nite? Did you fail to grow up? Did you not leave your invisible friend from childhood behind?

Just WHAT are these "benefits" you speak of?

In the very least, they can often provide a placebo effect. If I sincerely believe that I am healing through the power of God, then my body is likely to respond positively to whatever ails me.

 

[Perfect Circle]

You didn't ask me a question, you made a comment about my views being so unstable that I could be converted by a religion simply by it's mere presents, thats insulting and knowing that I am an Atheists just plain stupid.

Don't make stupid and or insulting remarks and no one will insult you either.

You need to slow your roll dude... He wasn't trying to insult you, and he never said anything about you being stupid. If you want to be taken seriously on these forums I suggest you quit attacking people.

It depends in what part of the country you are in, Texas is famous for it's religious fanaticism, ask anyone in the bible belt if creationism should be taught in public schools, go and visit the Creation Museum in Kentucky, ask how many in attendance believe religion should be a major part of our Government. As with all things there's a varying degree's of rigidity among the religious, but from the southern and southwestern states the mindset of the religious is very rigid. Anytime you have a group of people that feel as though their religion trumps all else, including all other religions, then there is always the danger of religious interference in other peoples lives.

I live in the "Bible Belt". Southern Alabama, in fact... and not one of my friends or family believe that creationism should be taught in science class. So how about you quit generalizing entire segments of the population and come down off your horse so that you can DISCUSS things with people instead of talk at them about how awful religion is. You make yourself look like a ****** off 12 year old when you say the patently DUMB stuff you've said throughout this thread...

 

[richardlowellt]

You need to slow your roll dude... He wasn't trying to insult you, and he never said anything about you being stupid

I never said he called me stupid, he made a stupid comment, and it was in fact insulting. As you were not part of the conversation, I would suggest you mind your business, or get involved in the actually exchange.

. If you want to be taken seriously on these forums I suggest you quit attacking people

I will attack when I feel the need and don't particularly care if you take me seriously or not.

I live in the "Bible Belt". Southern Alabama, in fact... and not one of my friends or family believe that creationism should be taught in science class. So how about you quit generalizing entire segments of the population and come down off your horse so that you can DISCUSS things with people instead of talk at them about how awful religion is.

Congratulations to you and your friends and family for rebelling against the norm, it's called the "bible belt" for a reason, of all people you should know why that is. I'm not on a "high horse" you only see it that way, I am in fact discussing how awful religion is, tell me why you don't agree instead of crying like a little girl about my posts.

You make yourself look like a ****** off 12 year old when you say the patently DUMB stuff you've said throughout this thread...[/QUOTE

You always have the option of ignoring my posts, that was my polite reply.

 

[richardlowellt]

Greetings!

You may hope what you like, but I'm sure this isn't going to happen (and am grateful therefor)!

And what makes yo so "sure" this isn't going to happen? People will eventually outgrow their need for superstition and magic, unrealistic children's stories and illogical assumptions. I believe science will eventually show us all we need to know just as it showed us that thunder and lightning were not the wrath of an angry god.

 

[richardlowellt]

This is indeed the problem. All religions contain a spirituality, which is what the positive aspect that the adherents are benefiting from.

This "spirituality" you speak of, this good feeling inside, can only come from religion? I feel good most of the times "Inside" and I have no religious beliefs.

Its the dogma in religion that polarizes and leads to persecution and violence.

It is, and thats exactly why we blame religion and not the individual.

If we could divorce dogma from spirituality maybe we could keep what's beneficial about religion and do away with its negative aspects

There is nothing beneficial about religion, it's a crutch, a promoter of closed mindedness, its gives in most instances a faults sense of comfort. You will never divorce religious dogma from religion, it's an important component of religion.

 

[Quagmire]

Greetings!



And what makes yo so "sure" this isn't going to happen? People will eventually outgrow their need for superstition and magic,

Like Faust by Gounod, for instance.

unrealistic children's stories

Like the Nutcracker suite.

and illogical assumptions.

If that happens, I'll be out of a job.

I believe science will eventually show us all we need to know just as it showed us that thunder and lightning were not the wrath of an angry god.

Because we all know a culture can't have both science and art.

 

[MoonWater]

Sure I can, many poor and uneducated people are easily blinded by their religion, although thats not always the case, many people simply do not understand the basics of how science works so they fall victim of religious dogma. In a resent example here on this site a well spoken person claimed the weather was controlled by Allah, could not understand why it would rain in some areas and there would be a drought in others, not matter how we tried to convince he could only believe Allah's special angels controlled the weather. Gullibility, uneducated, all contribute to religious blinding.

They certainly can. So then wouldn't the problem be lack of proper education rather than religion? After all that is what leads to religious blinding (as you say).

 

[MoonWater]

This is indeed the problem. All religions contain a spirituality, which is what the positive aspect that the adherents are benefiting from. Its the dogma in religion that polarizes and leads to persecution and violence. If we could divorce dogma from spirituality maybe we could keep what's beneficial about religion and do away with its negative aspects.

:candle:
Crys

Now that I would agree with.

 

[MoonWater]

Please explain to me what "benefits" are derived from believing in fairies demons and things that go bump in the nite? Did you fail to grow up? Did you not leave your invisible friend from childhood behind?

Just WHAT are these "benefits" you speak of?

"fairies demons and things that go bump in the night" are aspects of mythology. They are not a part of spirituality and are only a part of religion in the religions that have mythologies with such characters. One does not need to believe in them in order to be religious or spiritual nor does one need to believe in them in order to obtain the benefits that can come from leading a spiritual life.

As for what the actual benefits are it varies depending on the person, the type of religious/spiritual path they are following, and on what exactly it is they are searching for. As such the answer to that question is very individualistic. I doubt anyone would have they exact same answer as any other person, even if the words they used to answer it happen to be the same.

 

[MoonWater]

This "spirituality" you speak of, this good feeling inside, can only come from religion? I feel good most of the times "Inside" and I have no religious beliefs.

there is far more to spirituality than a "good feeling inside". And you don't NEED religion in order to be spiritual. However some people prefer it that way.

It is, and thats exactly why we blame religion and not the individual.

and yet you have not given any examples which point to religion as the culprit. If it is the "dogmatic mindset" that is the root of the problem then we need to do away with the "dogmatic mindset". Dogma and religion are not one in the same and following a religion does not automatically lead on to have a dogmatic mindset.

There is nothing beneficial about religion, it's a crutch, a promoter of closed mindedness, its gives in most instances a faults sense of comfort.

If religion does all these things then why is it some of the most loving and open minded people I have met have been religious? This brings us right back to the question I brought up earlier which you did not adequately address. If religion is responsible for these things and others similar then why is that so many religious people are not anything like you describe?

You will never divorce religious dogma from religion, it's an important component of religion.

No, it's not.

Dogma has to do with authority and strict rules and regulations that are set down by a figurehead and must be adhered to. Not all religions have this and even those religions that are seen as stereotypically dogmatic have sects within them that have found ways of stripping away that dogma to focus purely on the spiritual and communal aspects of that religion.

 

[richardlowellt]

there is far more to spirituality than a "good feeling inside". And you don't NEED religion in order to be spiritual. However some people prefer it that way.

Is thee more to this spiritual thing other than the non-physical part of a person, the person's true self? Exactly what do you mean when you use the word spirit or spiritual?

and yet you have not given any examples which point to religion as the culprit.

I gave you three such examples on my opening post.

If it is the "dogmatic mindset" that is the root of the problem then we need to do away with the "dogmatic mindset". Dogma and religion are not one in the same and following a religion does not automatically lead on to have a dogmatic mindset.

Please remember I am referring to the Abrahamic religions and all three are very dogmatic.

If religion does all these things then why is it some of the most loving and open minded people I have met have been religious?

Most likely because you have only be in contact with a very small percentage of the whole.

This brings us right back to the question I brought up earlier which you did not adequately address. If religion is responsible for these things and others similar then why is that so many religious people are not anything like you describe?

And what number do you say are not like I described? Of course not all religious people fall into that category, no more than all musicians are drug addicts. It's not the people who follow the religion but the religion itself that promotes such rigid mindsets. If your a soldier fighting an unjust war on behalf of your government and you kill someone, are you at fault or is the government that sent you?

Dogma has to do with authority and strict rules and regulations that are set down by a figurehead and must be adhered to. Not all religions have this and even those religions that are seen as stereotypically dogmatic have sects within them that have found ways of stripping away that dogma to focus purely on the spiritual and communal aspects of that religion.[/QUOTE

And what Islamic, Jewish, or Christian sects are there? Name the ones in each religion that focus on stripping away the dogma and focus on the spiritual and communal aspects.

 

[MoonWater]

Is thee more to this spiritual thing other than the non-physical part of a person, the person's true self? Exactly what do you mean when you use the word spirit or spiritual?

Spirituality typically deals with the non-physical aspect of a person, though it can certainly influence the physical. As for exactly what it means that is very difficult to describe and as I said varies from person to person. For me personally it is about finding harmony within myself and being truly who I am and who I want to be unfettered by the constraints and stereotypes of society.

I gave you three such examples on my opening post.

You gave examples of a few priests with some bad ideas who abused their power. The religion itself is not to blame for the erroneous claims these people made. Show me where in the bible or qu'ran that it states condomns are full of holes or the polio vaccine doesn't work.

Please remember I am referring to the Abrahamic religions and all three are very dogmatic.

I know you are reffering to those three and I know that those three have such a reputation. hence the last bit of my statement addressing this.

Most likely because you have only be in contact with a very small percentage of the whole.

Of course I could make the same claim about you. Any individual human could only possibly experience a small percentage of any one group in their lifetime. However I also happen to be familiar with people like martin luther king jr. and mother teresa and ghandi who all did a great deal of good and were inspired to do it because of the religion they followed.

And what number do you say are not like I described? Of course not all religious people fall into that category, no more than all musicians are drug addicts.

of course

It's not the people who follow the religion but the religion itself that promotes such rigid mindsets.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe its not the religion promoting rigid minds but instead maybe it's people who already had rigid minds interpreting the religion and its scripture rigidly and then obtaining power within the religion thereby teaching their followers to also have rigid minds?

If your a soldier fighting an unjust war on behalf of your government and you kill someone, are you at fault or is the government that sent you?

I blame the people in charge of the government who started the war AND i blame myself for getting mixed up in it.

And what Islamic, Jewish, or Christian sects are there? Name the ones in each religion that focus on stripping away the dogma and focus on the spiritual and communal aspects.

I'm not as familiar with judaism or islam as i am with christianity since that is what I was brought up in. My mom has attended two chuches that I am familiar with that didn't care much for the dogma of the religion and focused more on bringing people together as a community of believers to pray together and help others. The methodist church i personally grew up in worked with the heiffer project, donating money to buy animals to send to poor families africa. There was never much about dogma there during the services or sunday school. Beyond that I would have to do some digging, though I imagine it depends just as much on the particular church your going to and the pastor which heads it as it has to do with the particular sect it belongs to.

Each individual will follow their religion of choice(if they choose one) slightly differently depending on their own personal interpretation of the texts and writings of that religion and the experiences they have had within and without it. This happens because we are all individualsand we all look at and react to things differently. Religion is an inanimate "tool" that many people choose to use. Just like any tool it can be used for good or ill, it can be used to heal and nurture and it can be used to kill and destroy; just like any other tool. Do you blame the hammar for smashing your foot or do you blame the person who dropped it on your foot in the first place? Do you congratulate the tools that were used to build the house or do you congratulate the person who wielded them. Yes I can definitively agree with you that if religion weren't around the atrocities commited in it's name would most likely not have happened. However, I can also definitively say that in there place there would be things equaly atrocious taking place. This is because it is human nature to seek out power and it is in the nature of power to corrupt those who wield it.

You look at religion and focus on the bad that it has done yet when people point out to you the good it has done you claim that those things could happen regardless of religion. If the good can happen without religion then the bad could also happen without religion. To claim otherwise is to show a double standard.

 

[richardlowellt]

You gave examples of a few priests with some bad ideas who abused their power. The religion itself is not to blame for the erroneous claims these people made.

Religion is just a word, it's people and the people who act as leaders that make a religion. These "few" priests where fully supported by the Vatican, the religion, in fact the Pope himself, the supreme leader, the religion personified in a single person made a similar comment, "Aids is bad, but condoms are worse" so in this case it is the religion, and not just a few wayward priests.

Show me where in the bible or qu'ran that it states condomns are full of holes or the polio vaccine doesn't work

It doesn't but both contain things much worse. There are many things in the bible that that are no longer taken literally, but still are apart of the religion.

Of course I could make the same claim about you. Any individual human could only possibly experience a small percentage of any one group in their lifetime. However I also happen to be familiar with people like martin luther king jr. and mother teresa and ghandi who all did a great deal of good and were inspired to do it because of the religion they followed

The difference being I can see the damage religion has done, read about it everyday, and as far as Mother Teresa is concerned, why did she so seriously doubt her faith toward the end of her life? Could it be a lifetime of dealing with the rigid thinking of Christianity finally caught up to her?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe its not the religion promoting rigid minds but instead maybe it's people who already had rigid minds interpreting the religion and its scripture rigidly and then obtaining power within the religion thereby teaching their followers to also have rigid minds?

Yes. I have thought of this and see it as most probable, the point is without religion there would be no scriptures to interpret.

I blame the people in charge of the government who started the war AND i blame myself for getting mixed up in it.

No, if your a soldier you have no choice, you can't blame yourself for getting "mixed" up in it, you go where and do what you are ordered to do.

Religion is an inanimate "tool" that many people choose to use. Just like any tool it can be used for good or ill, it can be used to heal and nurture and it can be used to kill and destroy; just like any other tool.

But it is this tool is only suppose to used for good, only good is suppose to come from religion.

Do you blame the hammar for smashing your foot or do you blame the person who dropped it on your foot in the first place?

If there never was a hammer, then the problem would never have happened.

Do you congratulate the tools that were used to build the house or do you congratulate the person who wielded them. Yes I can definitively agree with you that if religion weren't around the atrocities commited in it's name would most likely not have happened. However, I can also definitively say that in there place there would be things equaly atrocious taking place

I agree, but these atrocities would not spring from a supposed benevolent religion.

You look at religion and focus on the bad that it has done yet when people point out to you the good it has done you claim that those things could happen regardless of religion. If the good can happen without religion then the bad could also happen without religion.

It is my opinion that less bad would have happened throughout our history had religion been absent.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

As for what the actual benefits are it varies depending on the person, the type of religious/spiritual path they are following, and on what exactly it is they are searching for. As such the answer to that question is very individualistic. I doubt anyone would have they exact same answer as any other person, even if the words they used to answer it happen to be the same.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

The meaningful objective content of those 2 paragraphs is about the same.
:sleep:

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"Because we all know a culture can't have both science and art.

"

And what does art -either the creation or the appreciation - have to with spirits and spirituality?

 

[MoonWater]

Religion is just a word, it's people and the people who act as leaders that make a religion. These "few" priests where fully supported by the Vatican, the religion, in fact the Pope himself, the supreme leader, the religion personified in a single person made a similar comment, "Aids is bad, but condoms are worse" so in this case it is the religion, and not just a few wayward priests.

I'm really not following your logic here. "it was the leaders of the religion that supported these lies therefore the religion is to blame." It least that's the basic jist of what you seem to be saying. But no, if it is the religious leaders who are doing these things then it is the religious leaders who are to blame because they are the ones commiting the deeds. Are you advocating that religious leaders should not be held responsible? You do realize this is basically the same thing as the tired old "devil made me do it" argument, right? Religion is wholly inanimate, it can't cause anything. Without people it's merely words on paper and can't do anything to anybody. As such if it is the people that give religion it's power then should we not go after the people who use it as a weapon? Take away the religion and people will simply find something else to lord over people's heads, it's called human nature.

It doesn't but both contain things much worse. There are many things in the bible that that are no longer taken literally, but still are apart of the religion.

because people choose to interpret the scriptures in such ways and keep them in the religion.

The difference being I can see the damage religion has done, read about it everyday, and as far as Mother Teresa is concerned, why did she so seriously doubt her faith toward the end of her life? Could it be a lifetime of dealing with the rigid thinking of Christianity finally caught up to her?

I was unaware of her doubts. However I am aware that I am not mother teresa and therefore have no way of knowing why those doubts surfaced. It could be because of rigid thinking as you say, but it could also be the simple fear that what if she was wrong and death was the end of it all, what if she died and there was no heaven? Everyone has doubts about their chosen path at some point in their lives, that doesn't mean they automatically start thinking the path is bad for them. Besides regardless of how much faith she had she still used religion as a tool to do a great deal of good, why should having some doubts at the end of her life suddenly negate that?

Yes. I have thought of this and see it as most probable, the point is without religion there would be no scriptures to interpret.

And as such people who desired power would find something else to obtain that power through. If you are faced with someone who wants to hurt you and you take away his knife, he can still punch you in the face.

No, if your a soldier you have no choice, you can't blame yourself for getting "mixed" up in it, you go where and do what you are ordered to do.

what I meant was I blame myself for allowing myself to become a soldier in an unjust war in the first place rather than leaving the country or joining or starting some rebel movement that seeks to stop the war.

But it is this tool is only suppose to used for good, only good is suppose to come from religion.

You know you are the only person that seems to be purporting this idea. The trouble with this argument is that you could say the same thing for every tool out there. "its only supposed to be used for good", and ideally it would be. But this isn't an ideal world. A person can use a hammar to build house or kill a person, it makes no difference to the hammar. Without a person to hold the hammer it can't do either of those things. that is why we throw the person in jail and not the hammer. The same goes for religion, it can be used to build people up or to tear them down, it makes no difference to the religion and without a person to "hold" the religion it would not be able to do either of those things. hence why we should blame the person and not the religion. You can't lock religion up in prison and the only way you can take away its power is to take away the power of the religious leaders. But the religious leaders only have power because people follow them. More and more we keep coming back to the people, so maybe they are the one's we should be looking at.

If there never was a hammer, then the problem would never have happened.

if there never was a hammer it would be a hell of a lot harder to build houses. Also that hammer could easily be replaced by a wrench, a brick, a block of wood, just about anything, the end result would be pretty much the same.

I agree, but these atrocities would not spring from a supposed benevolent religion.

Again you seem to be the only one purporting that religion must be wholly good. Religion is a tool, it is neutral, whether it does good or bad is wholly dependent on the character of the people using it. If you wish to claim that religion is bad because it has been used to help people do bad things then you must also believe that government and philosophy are bad for they have also been used by people to do bad things. To do otherwise reveals a double standard.

It is my opinion that less bad would have happened throughout our history had religion been absent.

and that opinion is pure speculation. True without religion we most likely would not have the SAME atrocities taking place but who's to say we would not have completely different atrocities take there place that are just as bad if not worse. You said so yourself that religion is not necesary to do good things. That is true but it is also true that religion is not necesary to do bad things. Take away the hammer and a person can still pick up a wrench.