Abrahamic religions can be hazardous to you health

[Nothing]

I could not agree with you more richard. You alone must find the strength to conquer whatever problems or fears come along. I am sure you agree that we do not control what life throws at us, nor should we have to accept someone else's way to resolve it. Like you, I know that within me resides all the answers to problems and fears that come along.
However, unlike you I do not think of others as weak for holding different beliefs then myself. On the contrary, I believe there is much I can learn from them. They, like you and me are trying to make there way through life as best as they can. I know I have made many mistakes on my journey and so therefore by judging others as weak, I am only judging myself. This is of course my interpretation and mine alone. If I am true to myself then I cannot judge you if you feel differently.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Up until now you seemed like a reasonable person, with this comment stupidity comes to mind.

Ok, so turn to insult me if you can't answer my question.

Wonderful tactic - certainly distracted me for a whole 30s, but it's not going to win you either friends or debates like this.

So with that I leave this thread - I do not come here to have myself insulted.

 

[Riverwolf]

And why isn't it?

"Why?" How should I know? I didn't write it.

If you don't see either good or evil in a God you are left with a god devoid of any qualities, you must have a very different personal God than most.

Well, currently my personal God is Lord Ganesha, though I'm still getting acquainted with his qualities. But I don't believe he's external.

But the transcendent God, referred to by whatever Name, has no individuality.

Can you think of any good reason why a god would choose evil over good?

Good cannot exist without evil.

In Gods it certainly does. It is both illogical and unreasonable to believe a god could be anything but good, unless you want to propose that this Abrahamic god just doesn't care.

I disagree; I believe it's illogical and unreasonable to believe that a God could be anything but good, because people aren't.

God is only as good as the whole of existence.

I supernatural being that looks after them answering prayers and is involved in their everyday life. They speak to it and it speaks back to them, or speaks to them through a religious leader.

Quite a literalistic standpoint, but a perfectly understandable one; many devotees and leaders see God in this same way.

But that's not what I see when I read about God in Scripture, or when I look at the world, or when I pray or meditate.

Of course, just like everybody else, I can only see one side of the elephant.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think that you just don't get what I'm talking about, I am not talking about religion being a danger to me as an individual, I'm an Atheists, I don't need to be healed from any pervious religious experience. I'm talking about the dangers of the Abrahamic religions to our society, and yes Catholicism is part of the Abrahamic religions. What would you do if religion got a form foot hold in our political system as it almost did with Bush, and it became a law that homosexuality was a crime? What if everyday work was stopped and you were required to pray for 20 minutes. What if you were an Atheists and your child was forced into a class were Creationism was being taught, and most likely ridiculed by the other children because of his or her non belief. What if you were an Atheist and were fired because of your non-belief, or went for a job interview and were turned down because of your non-belief. Need I go on, can you not create scenerio's similar to these?

What does political agenda have to do with religion? Politics is far more guilty of things like this: look at China.

Indeed, over and over, you keep not realizing that it's political agendas that cause these things, not religion itself. Jesus HIMSELF taught to keep spirituality and religion out of politics.

 

[Riverwolf]

Those of us who see the threat can only bring it to the attention of others, many time an evil is hidden behind the veil of goodness and love. I'm certainly not going to propose that behind all religions are this lurking evil, most religious people do wonderful things, but these dogmatic mindsets and rigid thinking often seep through all the good intentions, and all religions have their radical extremists, these are very dangerous people. My vision of a better world would be one of religion being kept personal, keep it's teachings in the home or the church and out of public life. I do believe Jesus told his followers to do the same.

:clap At last, we find that we are in total agreement, my friend.

 

[richardlowellt]

Ok, so turn to insult me if you can't answer my question.

You didn't ask me a question, you made a comment about my views being so unstable that I could be converted by a religion simply by it's mere presents, thats insulting and knowing that I am an Atheists just plain stupid.

So with that I leave this thread - I do not come here to have myself insulted.

Don't make stupid and or insulting remarks and no one will insult you either.

 

[richardlowellt]

Well, currently my personal God is Lord Ganesha, though I'm still getting acquainted with his qualities. But I don't believe he's external.

But the transcendent God, referred to by whatever Name, has no individuality.

If we put these two statements together they make no sense, how does one get "acquainted" with a god who is both external, and has no individuality?

Good cannot exist without evil.

Of course they can, who say's they cannot?

I disagree; I believe it's illogical and unreasonable to believe that a God could be anything but good, because people aren't.

So in your view the people control their god and not the other way around? I always knew that men created god, but this is kind of a new premiss.

God is only as good as the whole of existence.

Which means that god has absolutely no control over what happens, has no control over that which he was suppose to have created? Again a very different approach than the majority of religions.

Quite a literalistic standpoint, but a perfectly understandable one; many devotees and leaders see God in this same way.

All of the Abrahamic religions do, some 3.8 billion people, half the worlds population.

But that's not what I see when I read about God in Scripture, or when I look at the world, or when I pray or meditate

So you don't see a mythical being that created all we know? You don't see an invisible being that not only created all but loves us and is concerned about our welfare?

 

[Riverwolf]

If we put these two statements together they make no sense, how does one get "acquainted" with a god who is both external, and has no individuality?

Is sunlight part of the Sun or wholly separate from the Sun?

Of course they can, who say's they cannot?

Good and evil are simply labels; they do not exist beyond the human mind. Without one, the other cannot be defined, therefore each exists dependently of one another.

So in your view the people control their god and not the other way around? I always knew that men created god, but this is kind of a new premiss.

Not quite; you're jumping the gun a bit here, though it is understandable.

I cannot explain it here, as to do so would derail the thread.

Which means that god has absolutely no control over what happens, has no control over that which he was suppose to have created? Again a very different approach than the majority of religions.

You mean the majority of what people think of as God, regardless of religion.

Don't forget that religion is very personal. Many Christians and Muslims do not follow orthodox teachings, yet are just as much Christian and Muslim as those who do.

All of the Abrahamic religions do, some 3.8 billion people, half the worlds population.

Religions aren't defined by Scripture; they're defined by followers. Scriptures are just guidelines.

Absolutes do not exist in this subject. Many do, many don't. That is what I have discovered in my discussions here and elsewhere about whether or not a religion teaches something.

You can't say that all followers of Christianity believe the entire Bible literally, because it's not factual. There are innumerable schools of thought within Christianity, some of which do take the entire Bible literally, some of which take some of it literally and some of it not, some of which take all of it symbolically, some of which only accept the New Testament, some of which only accept the words attributed to Christ, some of which believe all translations except King James' Authorized translation to be Satanic. There are yet tens of millions of variations in these categories, which are but a few of thousands.

Remember: giving God human attributes in the Tanakh is old Hebrew poetic license.

So you don't see a mythical being that created all we know? You don't see an invisible being that not only created all but loves us and is concerned about our welfare?

Only when I look at Scripture from a literalistic viewpoint, which I'm trying not to do anymore, for the reason that the Jewish variant of the Golden Rule is the whole Torah summarized: "That which is detestable to you, do not do to others." Reading the Torah literally, this cannot be, yet a Rabbi managed to come to this conclusion. How can this be? That he was lying to gain a convert is too simplistic an explanation to be true, and I see no reason to think he did.

Therefore, next time I read the Torah, I will read it as an allegorical story: not meant to be taken literally in any way, and see what I can find.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

" Many Christians and Muslims do not follow orthodox teachings, yet are just as much Christian and Muslim as those who do."

That statement is an oxymoron. Religion is define by its teachings. If you accept and follow them you are a whatever. If you make up your own rules who are not.

 

[richardlowellt]

Is sunlight part of the Sun or wholly separate from the Sun?

I'll ask again, how does one become "acquainted" with a mythical being.

Good and evil are simply labels; they do not exist beyond the human mind. Without one, the other cannot be defined, therefore each exists dependently of one another.

A loving God certainly could have created all with the absents of evil.

You mean the majority of what people think of as God, regardless of religion.

Don't forget that religion is very personal. Many Christians and Muslims do not follow orthodox teachings, yet are just as much Christian and Muslim as those who do.

As has been pointed out to you, religion is defined by it's teachings, that is the difference between Muslims Christians and Jews.

Religions aren't defined by Scripture; they're defined by followers. Scriptures are just guidelines

Defined by the followers who adhere to the scriptures, otherwise what's the point of scriptures. Religious laws are not subject to interpretation or your not practicing what your religion demands of you, thats one of the reason most religions are so dogmatic.

Absolutes do not exist in this subject. Many do, many don't. That is what I have discovered in my discussions here and elsewhere about whether or not a religion teaches something.

I have had the opposite experience.

You can't say that all followers of Christianity believe the entire Bible literally, because it's not factual.

Many will tell you all in the bible is factual, that everything is to be taken literally.

There are innumerable schools of thought within Christianity, some of which do take the entire Bible literally, some of which take some of it literally and some of it not, some of which take all of it symbolically, some of which only accept the New Testament, some of which only accept the words attributed to Christ, some of which believe all translations except King James' Authorized translation to be Satanic. There are yet tens of millions of variations in these categories, which are but a few of thousands.

All centered around the same basic principal, an invisible being who created all, and is fitting of worship. A being involved in our everyday life, answering prayers and promising an afterlife for those who believe and worship.

Remember: giving God human attributes in the Tanakh is old Hebrew poetic license.

If not human attributes then what? how does one relate to something that demands worship, and controls our lives. As you try to get "acquainted" with this what face do you put on he/she/it?

Therefore, next time I read the Torah, I will read it as an allegorical story: not meant to be taken literally in any way, and see what I can find.

So you are obviously "looking" for something, what is it that you are looking for that can't be found without a book of allegories?

 

[Riverwolf]

I'll ask again, how does one become "acquainted" with a mythical being.

Oh, that's what you were asking. My mistake; I misunderstood the question.

The same way you get acquainted with fictional characters while reading a great book, watching a great film, or playing a great character-based game. Haven't you ever felt like you knew the well-written characters and felt like you were adventuring with them?

Lord Ganesha is my current personal God and Teacher. Lord Ganesha does not exist in the physical world.

A loving God certainly could have created all with the absents of evil.

Only if God were completely and wholly separate from His creation. There are those who believe this to be true, but I disagree, and this is one of the reasons why.

As has been pointed out to you, religion is defined by it's teachings, that is the difference between Muslims Christians and Jews.

Yet the definition of a Christian isn't so cut-and-dry. Defining Muslims and Jews is certainly easier.

What do you think defines a Christian?

Defined by the followers who adhere to the scriptures, otherwise what's the point of scriptures. Religious laws are not subject to interpretation or your not practicing what your religion demands of you, thats one of the reason most religions are so dogmatic.

A statement formulated by those with a political agenda, and is simply not supported by Scripture or its development and history.

I have had the opposite experience.

And what is your experience with Christianity? Use neutral terms, please.

Many will tell you all in the bible is factual, that everything is to be taken literally.

Not what I was trying to say. What you say here is, indeed, factual.

I was saying that not all Christians take the Bible literally.

All centered around the same basic principal, an invisible being who created all, and is fitting of worship.

He's not always invisible in some beliefs.

A being involved in our everyday life, answering prayers and promising an afterlife for those who believe and worship.

Many believe that the good afterlife is universal for those who do good and that belief and worship is not a requirement.

The Pope himself stated that John Lennon is "forgiven." (Not that he really needed forgiving, IMO.)

If not human attributes then what? how does one relate to something that demands worship, and controls our lives.

You don't, any more than you relate to gravity.

As you try to get "acquainted" with this what face do you put on he/she/it?

You're not supposed to put a face on God, according to the second commandment. That's one of the reasons why Jews dislike orthodox Christianity so much.

So you are obviously "looking" for something, what is it that you are looking for that can't be found without a book of allegories?

I look for the Golden Rule in the Tanakh. I will use many different translations along with scholarly commentaries, such as Robert Alter's or Everett Fox's.

 

[BruceDLimber]

[

And I certainly don't mean to insult you, but [the Baha'i Faith] is in the minority when compared to the three major Abrahamic religions I am referring to. I'm sure it's a very nice religion....[/quote]

No problem; give it time!

How big was Christianity a century or two after its founding?

All things i the fullness of time!

Suffice it to say that the World Christian Encyclopedia states that the Baha'i Faith is the fastest-growing religion among those already established in over 100 countries!

And in terms of cities where adherents live, the Encyclopedia Britannica cites it as the second-most-widespread religion on earth, exceeded only by Christianity! Here are the specfic numbers:

RELIGION / LOCATIONS
Christinaity: 140,000
Baha'i Faith: 110,000
All others: 90,000 or fewer.

Q. E. D..

Peace,

Bruce

 

[richardlowellt]

Yet the definition of a Christian isn't so cut-and-dry. Defining Muslims and Jews is certainly easier.

What do you think defines a Christian?

Someone who believes Jesus was killed and rose from the dead to be with his father, a mythical god, in heaven, a mythical place, and that this mythical being created all there is.

He's not always invisible in some beliefs.

Something either is or is not visible, if we can't see it, touch it, smell it, have no physical evidence that it exists, then it is invisible. So tell me, in what beliefs is there physical evidence that this god thing exists?

You don't, any more than you relate to gravity

I don't know about you, but I relate very well to gravity, a mere trip and fall does a lot for my relationship with gravity. The difference is, I have examinable evidence of gravity, I can see and understand the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of gravity.

I look for the Golden Rule in the Tanakh.

So it is impossible to find these "golden rules" without the Tanakh? You would not instictively know how to act without reading these golden rules?

 

[richardlowellt]

And I certainly don't mean to insult you, but [the Baha'i Faith] is in the minority when compared to the three major Abrahamic religions I am referring to. I'm sure it's a very nice religion....

No problem; give it time!

I'm hoping with time, that all religions will go the way of the Dodo bird.

Suffice it to say that the World Christian Encyclopedia states that the Baha'i Faith is the fastest-growing religion among those already established in over 100 countries!

I have read different, that the Muslim faith was the fastest growing of all religions.

And in terms of cities where adherents live, the Encyclopedia Britannica cites it as the second-most-widespread religion on earth, exceeded only by Christianity! Here are the specfic numbers:

RELIGION / LOCATIONS
Christinaity: 140,000
Baha'i Faith: 110,000
All others: 90,000 or fewer.

Q. E. D..

Peace,

Bruce[/QUOTE]

 

[MoonWater]

Not all religions, I'm very careful to zero in on the three monotheistic religions. There a threat because they try and force themselves on society, as in teaching Creationist BS in public schools, as in worming their way into politics, as in forcing their way into all of public life, prayers in school, at sporting events, ect. ect. Are you not aware of the fact that Huckabee, wanted the US constitutions wording changed to be more inline with the teachings of the bible. Do you know what life is like under the curse of the Taliban? It's a short step from religion in politics and in our public life to the mindset of the Taliban. It does seem foolish that I should have to make you aware of these things, don't you pay attention?

If the religions themselves are responsible for these and other similar acts then why is it that a significant portion of the adherents of these religions don't do these things? In fact I'd be willing to bet that most of the adherents don't push the things you claim they push. Why would that be if, as you say, the religion itself causes these things? After all if it does then wouldn't all of their adherents push for these things?

 

[MoonWater]

I think that you just don't get what I'm talking about, I am not talking about religion being a danger to me as an individual, I'm an Atheists, I don't need to be healed from any pervious religious experience. I'm talking about the dangers of the Abrahamic religions to our society, and yes Catholicism is part of the Abrahamic religions. What would you do if religion got a form foot hold in our political system as it almost did with Bush, and it became a law that homosexuality was a crime? What if everyday work was stopped and you were required to pray for 20 minutes. What if you were an Atheists and your child was forced into a class were Creationism was being taught, and most likely ridiculed by the other children because of his or her non belief. What if you were an Atheist and were fired because of your non-belief, or went for a job interview and were turned down because of your non-belief. Need I go on, can you not create scenerio's similar to these?

This makes a great case for why religion and polotics need to be kept seperate... but it doesn't make any case for why the religions of which you speak need to be abolished. In fact, all of the problems you've brought up that you atribute to these religions have only occurred when the religion itself has gotten mixed up in politics. So maybe instead of arguing that these three religions are a poison or hazard, you should be arguing to keep these and the rest of the religions out there out of politics. Just a thought.

 

[richardlowellt]

If the religions themselves are responsible for these and other similar acts then why is it that a significant portion of the adherents of these religions don't do these things? In fact I'd be willing to bet that most of the adherents don't push the things you claim they push. Why would that be if, as you say, the religion itself causes these things? After all if it does then wouldn't all of their adherents push for these things?

It depends in what part of the country you are in, Texas is famous for it's religious fanaticism, ask anyone in the bible belt if creationism should be taught in public schools, go and visit the Creation Museum in Kentucky, ask how many in attendance believe religion should be a major part of our Government. As with all things there's a varying degree's of rigidity among the religious, but from the southern and southwestern states the mindset of the religious is very rigid. Anytime you have a group of people that feel as though their religion trumps all else, including all other religions, then there is always the danger of religious interference in other peoples lives.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

I'm hoping with time, that all religions will go the way of the Dodo bird.

You may hope what you like, but I'm sure this isn't going to happen (and am grateful therefor)!

Suffice it to say that the World Christian Encyclopedia states that the Baha'i Faith is the fastest-growing religion among those already established in over 100 countries!

That's because you obviously didn't note the qualifier on my statement!:

Islam isn't established in over 100 countries.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[OmarKhayyam]

I agree with Russel (Guess I'm an optimist.) We will eventually outgrow the need to believe in these myths and we ALL will be the better for it.

The only thing the belief in supernatural religion has done is provide us with another excuse to kill and maim each other. The sooner we leave ALL of them in the ash can of history the better.

 

[MoonWater]

It depends in what part of the country you are in, Texas is famous for it's religious fanaticism, ask anyone in the bible belt if creationism should be taught in public schools, go and visit the Creation Museum in Kentucky, ask how many in attendance believe religion should be a major part of our Government. As with all things there's a varying degree's of rigidity among the religious, but from the southern and southwestern states the mindset of the religious is very rigid. Anytime you have a group of people that feel as though their religion trumps all else, including all other religions, then there is always the danger of religious interference in other peoples lives.

but you didn't answer my question: if the religion itself causes such things then why do these "varying degree's of rigidity" exist? It would seem to me that if religion were responsible for the actions of these people then everyone who followed said religions would act this way rather than just a handful. So maybe you can explain to me why this is not the case.