Abrahamics Only: Should there be a Karaite label under the Judaism tab?

[Simplelogic]

[QUOTE="Levite, post: 4032479,
So no, I see no reason for them to have a place in the Judaism DIR, since normative Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism. They should certainly have a sub-DIR in the Abrahamic DIR, if they want one. But they don't belong with us any more than Samaritans would, or Messianic Judaism.[/QUOTE]

This makes sense considering the fact that these Jews completely disagree with your sects use of the oral traditions. They do not disregard the writings of the Rabbi's. They do disregard any Rabbinic command which alters the original Torah. The written Torah is given the primacy. I realize that this is a danger for those who seek to claim authority over Biblical interpretation.

 

[dantech]

This makes sense considering the fact that these Jews completely disagree with your sects use of the oral traditions. They do not disregard the writings of the Rabbi's. They do disregard any Rabbinic command which alters the original Torah. The written Torah is given the primacy. I realize that this is a danger for those who seek to claim authority over Biblical interpretation.

Can you give an example of a Rabbinic law that contradicts a Torah law?

 

[Levite]

This makes sense considering the fact that these Jews completely disagree with your sects use of the oral traditions. They do not disregard the writings of the Rabbi's. They do disregard any Rabbinic command which alters the original Torah. The written Torah is given the primacy. I realize that this is a danger for those who seek to claim authority over Biblical interpretation.

Sure, I'm going to take criticisms of normative Judaism seriously from someone who believes in Jesus and thinks the prophets were talking about nuclear missiles.....

 

[Rhiamom]

Can you give an example of a Rabbinic law that contradicts a Torah law?

It is not precisely that a Rabbinic law contradicts a Torah law, but that the rabbis decide a law does not apply anymore, or place special conditions to make the law practically ineffective.

When is the last time a woman was ordered stoned? Or a man convicted of any crime? The Torah sets out punishments for certain acts, but the Rabbis have set conditions that make any conviction impossible, against the plain meaning of the Torah. (not that I think the Torah punishments should be practiced today) Why are there Western courts and not rabbinic courts in Israel judging all criminal acts? Because the rabbis altered the plain meaning to make conviction impossible. When is the last time a man was required to use a mikveh after experiencing a noctournal emission? The Torah requires it, but the rabbis did away with that.

 

[Rhiamom]

Doesn't it seem a bit odd that the written Torah is not the basis for a sects inclusion into the religion? The very fact that you are defining Judaism by adherence to the oral traditions is backwards and discredits the many Jewish sects throughout history who rejected it.

What I find most telling is that every Jewish group except the Pharisees rejected the Oral Law, including the Sadduccees, who were primarily the priestly class. The Samaritans and Karaites rejected it; the Ethiopian Jews had never even heard of it. This strongly suggests it is a Pharisaic invention. I strongly deny the Mosaic origin of the Oral Law as there are no references to it prior to the Pharisees coming to power in the post-second-Temple period.

Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism today places the Torah below the Oral Law, just as the Mormons purport to be Christians but place the Bible below the Book of Mormon. We may still be Jews, but our primary scripture is no longer the Torah if the Orthodox have it their way. I for one place the Torah above the Oral Law, and when they differ I tend to choose what the Torah says rather than what the rabbis said. The rabbis have erected guardrails around the hedges around the fences around the Torah, and it has become utterly ridiculous and unlike the Judaism of only 400 years ago.

 

[dantech]

It is not precisely that a Rabbinic law contradicts a Torah law, but that the rabbis decide a law does not apply anymore, or place special conditions to make the law practically ineffective.

When is the last time a woman was ordered stoned? Or a man convicted of any crime? The Torah sets out punishments for certain acts, but the Rabbis have set conditions that make any conviction impossible, against the plain meaning of the Torah. (not that I think the Torah punishments should be practiced today) Why are there Western courts and not rabbinic courts in Israel judging all criminal acts? Because the rabbis altered the plain meaning to make conviction impossible. When is the last time a man was required to use a mikveh after experiencing a noctournal emission? The Torah requires it, but the rabbis did away with that.

What I find most telling is that every Jewish group except the Pharisees rejected the Oral Law, including the Sadduccees, who were primarily the priestly class. The Samaritans and Karaites rejected it; the Ethiopian Jews had never even heard of it. This strongly suggests it is a Pharisaic invention. I strongly deny the Mosaic origin of the Oral Law as there are no references to it prior to the Pharisees coming to power in the post-second-Temple period.

Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism today places the Torah below the Oral Law, just as the Mormons purport to be Christians but place the Bible below the Book of Mormon. We may still be Jews, but our primary scripture is no longer the Torah if the Orthodox have it their way. I for one place the Torah above the Oral Law, and when they differ I tend to choose what the Torah says rather than what the rabbis said. The rabbis have erected guardrails around the hedges around the fences around the Torah, and it has become utterly ridiculous and unlike the Judaism of only 400 years ago.

What are you talking about? How exactly are Orthodox Jews putting the Oral law above the written law?

One more thing. If you follow the Written Law, what exactly does this mean, and what do you do to fulfill this law?
"You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes."

 

[Rhiamom]

Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just wondering what the majority of Jews thought about this.

I am a Jew who keeps the written Torah commands. Am I considered a practicing Jew to Rabbinic Jews?

That depends on the basis of your claim for being Jewish.

 

[Levite]

What I find most telling is that every Jewish group except the Pharisees rejected the Oral Law, including the Sadduccees, who were primarily the priestly class. The Samaritans and Karaites rejected it; the Ethiopian Jews had never even heard of it. This strongly suggests it is a Pharisaic invention. I strongly deny the Mosaic origin of the Oral Law as there are no references to it prior to the Pharisees coming to power in the post-second-Temple period.

Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism today places the Torah below the Oral Law, just as the Mormons purport to be Christians but place the Bible below the Book of Mormon. We may still be Jews, but our primary scripture is no longer the Torah if the Orthodox have it their way. I for one place the Torah above the Oral Law, and when they differ I tend to choose what the Torah says rather than what the rabbis said. The rabbis have erected guardrails around the hedges around the fences around the Torah, and it has become utterly ridiculous and unlike the Judaism of only 400 years ago.

This is a misunderstanding of what the Oral Torah is. No one places "Torah below Oral Law," because Oral Torah and Written Torah are both equally parts of the whole Torah. The only difference is that Written Torah became fixed in the time of Ezra, while Oral Torah grows and evolves.

One cannot simply "place Torah above the Oral Law" because without the interpretation of the Oral Torah, Written Torah is virtually impracticable. It offers no legal minimums, no guidelines for use, no expanded explanations of its terminology-- all the things that make law functional in a society, Written Torah lacks.

Tzedokim (Sadducees) apparently had guiding oral traditions of interpretation, they just differed from the Oral Torah as taught by the Rabbis, and were apparently much more fluid in some ways. The Qumrani community had extensive interpretations and guidelines they claimed both exegetically drawn from the Written Torah and from their own oral teachings, mostly concerning the particular mitzvot in which they were especially interested. Ethiopian Jews apparently split off from the rest of the Jewish People during the First Temple period, when things were much more in flux; yet they also had oral traditions of their own. So it seems clear that every community has found that organized interpretation and exegesis are necessary to use the Torah as a functional basis for society. Therefore, the question is not whether interpretations are needed, but whether one cares to adhere to the Oral Torah as taught by the Rabbis.

We don't know how Torah was routinely interpreted and applied for most of our history prior to the turn of the Common Era. No legal documents have yet been unearthed, nor apparently were legal treatises set down in writing in those times, or if they were, they have yet to be found. So it is impossible to state with any kind of certainty or reliability that what people did in the Second Temple or Exilic eras did not resemble the teachings of the Rabbis of the Talmud in any way.

What we do know is that no other sect or movement of those eras in history has survived, thrived, and spread in any significant fashion. Sadducees, Essenes, Qumranis, all have long since gone to rest upon the ash heap of history. Samaritans represent a tiny and isolated handful of communities, and even in their greater days were still but a movement of Judaized Babylonian immigrants to the Land of Israel, who never spread beyond that land, or spread their teachings outside their own communities. Karaism, as an attempt to revive Sadduceeism based on someone's frustrated desire for leadership and power within the community of Rabbinic Judaism, has no credibility. The Ethiopian Jewish community has universally embraced Rabbinic Judaism, as have most of the other "lost communities" that have rejoined the Jewish People.

Rabbinic Judaism is what we have. We have no reason to suspect that it is any worse, or any less authentic, than anything that might have been in practice before it.

And what is more, its strength is that it evolves. Of course Judaism doesn't look today much like what it did 400 years ago. Judaism of 400 years ago didn't look like Judaism of 400 years before that, and so on. Nor should we expect that the Judaism of 400 year from now look just like ours. The core of continuity will be there-- that is the strength of Torah and halachah. But many interpretations and practices will change, because times will change, circumstances will change, and halachah is there to be a path on which we walk in order to have continuity and an effective set of interpretive and exegetical tools to shape order for ourselves out of the chaos of change.

If it were static and literalistic, it would have failed centuries ago.

 

[Rhiamom]

Rabbinic Judaism is what we have. We have no reason to suspect that it is any worse, or any less authentic, than anything that might have been in practice before it.

And what is more, its strength is that it evolves. Of course Judaism doesn't look today much like what it did 400 years ago. Judaism of 400 years ago didn't look like Judaism of 400 years before that, and so on. Nor should we expect that the Judaism of 400 year from now look just like ours. The core of continuity will be there-- that is the strength of Torah and halachah. But many interpretations and practices will change, because times will change, circumstances will change, and halachah is there to be a path on which we walk in order to have continuity and an effective set of interpretive and exegetical tools to shape order for ourselves out of the chaos of change.

If it were static and literalistic, it would have failed centuries ago.

Once this was true. But Orthodox Judaism strives to be the defining voice, and they would have the Oral Law be wholly static, stuck in the 1700s. This is why I am not Orthodox. The Oral Law is what we have, and it is up to the rabbis of today to keep it relevant to how Judaism is actually practiced. Some mistake Judaism for the rabbinic rules, but it is the practices of the people that define Judaism, whether those are according to the "rules" or not.

 

[Simplelogic]

What are you talking about? How exactly are Orthodox Jews putting the Oral law above the written law?

One more thing. If you follow the Written Law, what exactly does this mean, and what do you do to fulfill this law?
"You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes."

Tefillin - Phylacteries - Nehemia's WallNehemia's Wall

 

[Levite]

Once this was true. But Orthodox Judaism strives to be the defining voice, and they would have the Oral Law be wholly static, stuck in the 1700s. This is why I am not Orthodox. The Oral Law is what we have, and it is up to the rabbis of today to keep it relevant to how Judaism is actually practiced. Some mistake Judaism for the rabbinic rules, but it is the practices of the people that define Judaism, whether those are according
to the "rules" or not.

Judaism is the practice of Torah as understood and taught through the Rabbinic lens. So in a sense, Judaism is Rabbinic rules (with the capital letter, indicating the authoritative teachings of the Rabbis of the Talmud), but Judaism is never rabbinic rules (without the capital letter, indicating the questionable teachings of individual rabbis in specific communities or circumstances).

Orthodox Judaism qua Orthodox Judaism is a modern phenomenon (and by that, I mean of the last 200-300 years). What Orthodoxy today looks like, and what it claims traditional observance looked like for most of history, bears limited resemblance to what appears to be the case, historically.

While I love many Orthodox Jews, and I find many things about Orthodox life and observance compelling and worthwhile, the institutions of Orthodox power I find problematic, both in their consistent lack of empathy, their consistent preference for hegemony of authority over discussion and compromise, and their persistent ahistoricism.

While I think halachic Judaism will certainly continue to thrive and exist successfully (God willing) perpetually, I think Orthodoxy as it presently is, as it has been at least for the past 150 years or so, is just as destined for obsolescence and evanescence as are movements as an organization of Judaism. My belief is that 300 years from now, there will be no movements, and no one will know what "Orthodox Judaism" in the capital-letter sense is supposed to mean. There will simply be Jews, halachah, and differences of opinion as to halachic interpretation and practice, just as it was 300 years ago and previously.

 

[Simplelogic]

\
If it were static and literalistic, it would have failed centuries ago.

Would you really describe the last 400 years as a success??? Much less the last 2000 years? Banished from Jerusalem and the Temple. Suffering through a difficult diaspora while becoming a target for evil rulers to annihilate in multiple different countries!! You speak as if these years have been a success when YHVH defines success by sincere repentance and restoration. When true repentance happens He promises to restore Israel and the Temple and the messiah.

1And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. 5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee. 8And thou shalt return and hearken to the voice of the LORD, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day. Deut 30: 1-8

It is very obvious that the cures is because of disobedience to Torah. This curse is defined by diaspora and suffering. It also must be stated that despite the Rabbinic authority over mainstream Judaism, it has still not cultivated true repentance which would in turn bring about true restoration for the Jewish people.

 

[Levite]

Would you really describe the last 400 years as a success??? Much less the last 2000 years? Banished from Jerusalem and the Temple. Suffering through a difficult diaspora while becoming a target for evil rulers to annihilate in multiple different countries!! You speak as if these years have been a success when YHVH defines success by sincere repentance and restoration. When true repentance happens He promises to restore Israel and the Temple and the messiah.

1And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. 5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee. 8And thou shalt return and hearken to the voice of the LORD, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day. Deut 30: 1-8

It is very obvious that the cures is because of disobedience to Torah. This curse is defined by diaspora and suffering. It also must be stated that despite the Rabbinic authority over mainstream Judaism, it has still not cultivated true repentance which would in turn bring about true restoration for the Jewish people.

Yes, it's very easy to critique Rabbinic Judaism when one ignores Rabbinic teaching. Also when one appears to uncritically embrace Biblical theology.

I never claimed that Rabbinic Judaism was perfect, or that it had resulted in perfect observance. I think that is fairly clear, given that we are not living in a messianic age. But Judaism is a process for the long term, and I choose to have hope for the future. I think there is great potential yet to be achieved in the teachings of the Rabbis. And I think the teachings of the Rabbis helped our communities cohere and survive the challenges of the ages. And I certainly don't imagine we would find greater success of survival or hope for the future as Sadducees or Karaites or Messianics or whatnot.

 

[Simplelogic]

Yes, it's very easy to critique Rabbinic Judaism when one ignores Rabbinic teaching. Also when one appears to uncritically embrace Biblical theology.

I never claimed that Rabbinic Judaism was perfect, or that it had resulted in perfect observance. I think that is fairly clear, given that we are not living in a messianic age. But Judaism is a process for the long term, and I choose to have hope for the future. I think there is great potential yet to be achieved in the teachings of the Rabbis. And I think the teachings of the Rabbis helped our communities cohere and survive the challenges of the ages. And I certainly don't imagine we would find greater success of survival or hope for the future as Sadducees or Karaites or Messianics or whatnot.

The problem is that Orthodox/Rabbinic thought is quick to claim the authoritative mantle for Judaism. This is fair and I agree that Rabbinic thought has been the central focus of practicing Jews for centuries. However, it is only fair that if they are going to claim this type of authority then they need to also be responsible for the obvious lack of repentance amongst the Jewish people. I would suggest that the added commandments by Rabbis has created a general distaste of the Law of Moses amongst many Jews throughout the centuries and today. After all, the Torah is clear that YHVH's commandments are NOT to difficult for man to do.

 

[Levite]

The problem is that Orthodox/Rabbinic thought is quick to claim the authoritative mantle for Judaism. This is fair and I agree that Rabbinic thought has been the central focus of practicing Jews for centuries. However, it is only fair that if they are going to claim this type of authority then they need to also be responsible for the obvious lack of repentance amongst the Jewish people. I would suggest that the added commandments by Rabbis has created a general distaste of the Law of Moses amongst many Jews throughout the centuries and today. After all, the Torah is clear that YHVH's commandments are NOT to difficult for man to do.

And they're not. The lack of observance these days has much less to do with Rabbinic commandments and much more to do with secular assimilation. People did them for 1800 years in various ways and with various interpretations and customs and so forth. Mass lapse of observance only really occurred after the start of the Enlightenment and the emancipation of European Jewry.

 

[Simplelogic]

Can you give an example of a Rabbinic law that contradicts a Torah law?

Here is one I picked out of hundreds:

Here is a direct Torah command:

20Thou shalt fear YHVH thy God; Him shalt thou serve; and to Him shalt thou cleave, and by His name shalt thou swear. Deut 10:20

The Rabbi's have completely forbidden the use of the name YHVH thus nullifying the commandment to swear by His name. You may think that this isn't a big deal but I believe it is a critical issue and one of the many reasons why YHVH has not received the repentance of his people. Jeremiah agrees:

16And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of My people to swear by My name: ‘As the LORD liveth,‘ even as they taught My people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built up in the midst of My people. 17But if they will not hearken, then will I pluck up that nation, plucking up and destroying it, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 12:16-17

 

[Simplelogic]

And they're not. The lack of observance these days has much less to do with Rabbinic commandments and much more to do with secular assimilation. People did them for 1800 years in various ways and with various interpretations and customs and so forth. Mass lapse of observance only really occurred after the start of the Enlightenment and the emancipation of European Jewry.

This is not true. I have lived and Israel and I can tell you that many Jews avoid synagogue because of the stringent adherence to oral traditions which most Jews believe to be Torah these days.

 

[Levite]

The Rabbi's have completely forbidden the use of the name YHVH thus nullifying the commandment to swear by His name.

Actually, the Rabbis never forbade the use of the name YHVH. They simply said that its use is only permitted when we are certain of the correct pronunciation, and under the proper circumstances.

We no longer are certain of the correct pronunciation, nor have been since the first century CE, if not a little before. Therefore we do not use that name, lest in mispronouncing it we disrespect God's holy name.

If, someday, we become certain of the correct pronunciation again, we would be expected to use it again in the proper circumstances.

 

[Levite]

This is not true. I have lived and Israel and I can tell you that many Jews avoid synagogue because of the stringent adherence to oral traditions which most Jews believe to be Torah these days.

That's not Rabbinic Judaism, that's just the excesses of the Orthodox institutions of power. Big difference, and also something that is a phenomenon of last 150 years or so, and is unlikely to last very long in the historical sense.

 

[metis]

This is not true. I have lived and Israel and I can tell you that many Jews avoid synagogue because of the stringent adherence to oral traditions which most Jews believe to be Torah these days.

I think you're confusing Talmudic studies and adherence to the pinnacle of the Talmud teachings, which still is Torah. The Talmud expands and clarifies Torah but doesn't replace it, nor is it considered more important than Torah.