Abrahamics Only: Should there be a Karaite label under the Judaism tab?

[Simplelogic]

That's not Rabbinic Judaism, that's just the excesses of the Orthodox institutions of power. Big difference, and also something that is a phenomenon of last 150 years or so, and is unlikely to last very long in the historical sense.

Lets hope

 

[Simplelogic]

I think you're confusing Talmudic studies and adherence to the pinnacle of the Talmud teachings, which still is Torah. The Talmud expands and clarifies Torah but doesn't replace it, nor is it considered more important than Torah.

I do agree that there are many wonderful Torah commentaries in the Talmud. I would not go so far as to say that all Talmud is considered Torah. Unfortunately there are many cases where the Talmud contradicts the written Torah.

 

[Simplelogic]

Actually, the Rabbis never forbade the use of the name YHVH. They simply said that its use is only permitted when we are certain of the correct pronunciation, and under the proper circumstances.

We no longer are certain of the correct pronunciation, nor have been since the first century CE, if not a little before. Therefore we do not use that name, lest in mispronouncing it we disrespect God's holy name.

If, someday, we become certain of the correct pronunciation again, we would be expected to use it again in the proper circumstances.

It is forbidden to read the glorious and terrible name as it is written, as the sages said "He that pronounces the name as it is written has no portion in the world to come". Therefore it must be read as if it were written Adonai. (Mishnah Berurah 5:2)

 

[Simplelogic]

This is hardly a modern innovation. It appears already in the early 3rd century CE in the Mishnah tractate of Sanhedrin:

"The following have no portion in the world to come: ... Abba Saul says: Also one who pronounces the divine name as it is written." (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10:1)

 

[Simplelogic]

Ironically, it was the Greeks who first pressured the Rabbi's to even start this ban:

"The [Seleucid] Greeks decreed that the name of God may not be spoken aloud; but when the Hasmoneans grew in strength and defeated them they decreed that the name of God be used even in contracts... when the Rabbis heard about this they said, 'Tomorrow this person will pay his debt and the contract will be thrown on a garbage heap' so they forbade its use in contracts." (Babylonian Talmud, Rosh Hashannah 18b)

 

[Levite]

It is forbidden to read the glorious and terrible name as it is written, as the sages said "He that pronounces the name as it is written has no portion in the world to come". Therefore it must be read as if it were written Adonai. (Mishnah Berurah 5:2)

Mishnah Berurah is the legal code commentary of R' Yisrael Meir Kagan, the Chofetz Chaim, late 19th-early 20th century. He is merely being strict-- as is his custom-- in reinforcing the precise teaching I mentioned by phrasing it as a simple prohibition rather than delving into the nature of the theoretically temporary nature of the prohibition.

 

[Simplelogic]

But what about Mishnah Sanhedrin 10:1??

 

[Levite]

Ironically, it was the Greeks who first pressured the Rabbi's to even start this ban:

"The [Seleucid] Greeks decreed that the name of God may not be spoken aloud; but when the Hasmoneans grew in strength and defeated them they decreed that the name of God be used even in contracts... when the Rabbis heard about this they said, 'Tomorrow this person will pay his debt and the contract will be thrown on a garbage heap' so they forbade its use in contracts." (Babylonian Talmud, Rosh Hashannah 18b)

Sure. Its use in contracts is not mandated by either written Torah or tradition, and the Rabbis saw there was a substantial danger of God's name being desecrated. They banned the practice accordingly. Seems fairly straightforward.

 

[Levite]

But what about Mishnah Sanhedrin 10:1??

If you read on in the Gemara and commentators, they clarify that what Abba Shaul means is, pronouncing it outside of appropriate circumstances, if one knows the proper pronunciation.

 

[Simplelogic]

If you read on in the Gemara and commentators, they clarify that what Abba Shaul means is, pronouncing it outside of appropriate circumstances, if one knows the proper pronunciation.

You are completely dismissing the fact that the name was not banned because of lack of knowledge of correct pronunciation, like you suggested.

 

[Simplelogic]

If you read on in the Gemara and commentators, they clarify that what Abba Shaul means is, pronouncing it outside of appropriate circumstances, if one knows the proper pronunciation.

Of the Second Temple groups we have seen that the Sadducees required the use of the name, even in contracts, the Pharisees used the name but forbade its use in contracts, and the Essenes completely forbade the name. At what point the Rabbinic ban expanded from the use of the name in contracts to the blanket statement that anyone who uses the name has no portion in the world to come in unclear. But the Talmud records a Rabbinic teaching which seems to be from this transitional phase:

“What is meant by the verse, ‘And upon those that fear My name shall (the sun of righteousness) shine’ (Mal ?)3:20 —This refers to those people who fear to utter the Divine name without good reason ”.)לבטלה((Babylonian Talmud, Nedarim 8b)4

This Talmudic teaching reflects a transitional stage in which there was a partial ban against using the name. The name could be used when necessary but not "without good reason". Later this partial ban was replaced by the absolute ban of Abba Saul (c.150 CE).

 

[Levite]

You are completely dismissing the fact that the name was not banned because of lack of knowledge of correct pronunciation, like you suggested.

By Abba Shaul's time the correct pronunciation was already in doubt: it had not been commonly used for many years already at that point.

 

[Simplelogic]

Are you aware that the name YHVH is found in both the Leningrad codex and the Aleppo Codex.

By Abba Shaul's time the correct pronunciation was already in doubt: it had not been commonly used for many years already at that point.

Wrong

 

[Simplelogic]

The reason for the origination of the ban had nothing to do with pronunciation. It was the Greeks who pressured the Rabbi's into it!

 

[Simplelogic]

Would you believe that two of the oldest copies of the Torah contain the name YHVH along with the vowels?? The two copies are the Leningrad Codex and the Aleppo Codex.

 

[Rhiamom]

What are you talking about? How exactly are Orthodox Jews putting the Oral law above the written law?

One more thing. If you follow the Written Law, what exactly does this mean, and what do you do to fulfill this law?
"You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes."

They put the Talmud above the Torah every time the Talmudic "explanation" or "interpretation" is different from the plain and obvious meaning of the Torah, and when the Talmud is preferred as the authoritative source. Which is all the time. Why is the study of Talmud elevated above study of Torah, such that the commandment to study Torah is warped into the study of Talmud instead?

And the meaning of that section of the Shema is clear; it means to carry the Torah always with you, in thought, and before you, as a goal. To filter the world through figurative lenses of Torah, and interact with the world wearing figurative gloves of Torah. The obvious reference is to the words HaShem is commanding, the Torah. The invention of tefillin is from rabbis trying to mine the Torah for as many rules as possible. But tefillin is an ancient custom, and I see nothing objectionable in this overly literal interpretation.

 

[Levite]

Are you aware that the name YHVH is found in both the Leningrad codex and the Aleppo Codex.

Wrong

The spelling was never in doubt. The pronunciation was in doubt.

In all extant vowelled texts of Tanach, all of which postdate the early Rabbinic period, including both Leningrad and Aleppo, the name YHVH is vowelled with the vowels for the name Adonai, as a mnemonic not to try and pronounce it as spelled, but to say "Adonai" instead. This was a universal enough custom that it was enforced by all the Masoretes-- many of whom were Karaites.

Not knowing this is the cause of non-Jewish translators and Bible scholars coming up with ridiculous attempts to write the name out in a vocalized fashion as Jehovah or Yahweh or other such.

 

[Levite]

Of the Second Temple groups we have seen that the Sadducees required the use of the name, even in contracts, the Pharisees used the name but forbade its use in contracts, and the Essenes completely forbade the name. At what point the Rabbinic ban expanded from the use of the name in contracts to the blanket statement that anyone who uses the name has no portion in the world to come in unclear. But the Talmud records a Rabbinic teaching which seems to be from this transitional phase:

“What is meant by the verse, ‘And upon those that fear My name shall (the sun of righteousness) shine’ (Mal ?)3:20 —This refers to those people who fear to utter the Divine name without good reason ”.)לבטלה((Babylonian Talmud, Nedarim 8b)4

This Talmudic teaching reflects a transitional stage in which there was a partial ban against using the name. The name could be used when necessary but not "without good reason". Later this partial ban was replaced by the absolute ban of Abba Saul (c.150 CE).

Contrary to the Messianic Jewish website that you lifted the above from, without attribution, as the Gemara and the commentators clarify Abba Shaul's ban, it becomes clear that what he says in Sanhedrin is merely a reinforcement of what it says in Nedarim, or vice-versa.

 

[Simplelogic]

The spelling was never in doubt. The pronunciation was in doubt.

In all extant vowelled texts of Tanach, all of which postdate the early Rabbinic period, including both Leningrad and Aleppo, the name YHVH is vowelled with the vowels for the name Adonai, as a mnemonic not to try and pronounce it as spelled, but to say "Adonai" instead. This was a universal enough custom that it was enforced by all the Masoretes-- many of whom were Karaites.

Not knowing this is the cause of non-Jewish translators and Bible scholars coming up with ridiculous attempts to write the name out in a vocalized fashion as Jehovah or Yahweh or other such.

Except the vowels were written in the name in both the Leningrad codex and the Aleppo.

 

[Simplelogic]

Contrary to the Messianic Jewish website that you lifted the above from, without attribution, as the Gemara and the commentators clarify Abba Shaul's ban, it becomes clear that what he says in Sanhedrin is merely a reinforcement of what it says in Nedarim, or vice-versa.

Not from a MJ site