[Abrahamics ONLY] Who is a Jew?

[Zardoz]

I have no clue what that means.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-far-does-it-go.183267/

 

[Jedster]

Sorry, I didn't know that was directed at me.

I'd say that if you add Jew, Jewish or Judaism in addition to 'eclectic' as your religion, you should be able to post there.
By forum rules you'd be within your rights to then post there, as I understand the requirements.
Will other Jews consider you Jewish, I cannot say, but you should refrain from interjecting those ideas of other
cultures/writings/groups/religions that you have explored on a topic, even if relevant.

However, from my experience even if you make zero mention of such other outside ideas, some might still harass you.

You make a good point when you say

you should refrain from interjecting those ideas of other
cultures/writings/groups/religions that you have explored on a topic, even if relevant.

I am not sure I want to keep to that because there is much commonality between systems which goes towards inter-faith understanding and peace.

So, I will not post any more in the Jewish DIR.
If I want to reply to someone's post I will do it privately or outside the DIR.

I have only been (mildly) harassed by one person who calls himself Jewish. (Not Tumah btw)

Anyway, thanks for your feedback.

 

[Godobeyer]

please show me where I said it is OK.

I show you :

I said :

You said , "it's ok I serve other God ", but Torah said "it's not ok ", is this ok ?

I mean, who should the credible your claim or Torah ?

You said YES I CAN serve another god.

um, yes...I can serve another god and yet not convert to another religion in the same way that I can cheat on my wife but stay married to her and not be married to anyone else.

So you actualy compared and make an exemple : cheating your wife with as serve other gods than your God .

 

[rosends]

You said YES I CAN serve another god.

In English, "can" indicates ability. "May" indicates permission. You are capable of serving another god. This does not mean that it is acceptable to do so.

So you actualy compared and make an exemple : cheating your wife with as serve other gods than your God .

Yes, something else that one can (is capable of doing) do, but which does not mean that he changes his underlying status.

 

[Godobeyer]

In English, "can" indicates ability. "May" indicates permission. You are capable of serving another god. This does not mean that it is acceptable to do so.

What verse of Torah said that "ok for Jews to serving other gods" ?
but Torah clearly said "whom serve other god should executed" .

Yes, something else that one can (is capable of doing) do, but which does not mean that he changes his underlying status

This comes from your own opinion or religious teaching ?

 

[rosends]

What verse of Torah said that "ok for Jews to serving other gods" ?

it doesn't say that and neither did I. Your lack of English skills is really hurting you here.

This comes from your own opinion or religious teaching ?

It comes from real world fact -- a person can cheat on his wife but not become married to the person he cheats with.

 

[FearGod]

it doesn't say that and neither did I. Your lack of English skills is really hurting you here.

Not his lack of English, but i think due to your ignorance of what you're saying.

It comes from real world fact -- a person can cheat on his wife but not become married to the person he cheats with.

This's a stupid example.

 

[rosends]

Not his lack of English, but i think due to your ignorance of what you're saying.

That's an interesting rebuttal. It not only ignores the glaring language issue (which is has admitted on RF) but also the content of what I said, as you fall into labeling with no backing.

This's a stupid example.

No, it isn't. So there.

 

[Flankerl]

"Let me tell you about your Religion"

 

[Zardoz]

Still not seen any standard mentioned. Without some kind of credo, it seems that anyone can just declare someone what they wish.

 

[james2ko]

Still not seen any standard mentioned. Without some kind of credo, it seems that anyone can just declare someone what they wish.

Here's an answer to your OP from a different perspective:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664

And before anyone accuses me of anti-semitism, I recently discovered, through DNA testing, I am descendant of Levi. The discovery occurred years after I had already been strangely drawn to observe the Sabbath and Holy Days. Although, I may not agree with all the tenets of Judaism, I love my brethren and have equal love toward all races. For the LORD our God commands:

Lev_19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Lev_19:34 The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deu_10:19 Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

​

 

[Tumah]

I have only been (mildly) harassed by one person who calls himself Jewish. (Not Tumah btw)

What?!?

 

[Zardoz]

Still not seen any standard mentioned. Without some kind of credo, it seems that anyone can just declare someone what they wish.

I'm waiting...

 

[Tumah]

What about the standard? How would it be determined if they a practicing Jew?

Allow me to add, for clarification, that the subject of the OP also identifies as a religious Jew; not an atheistic Jew, or as my son aptly says... "Technical Jew".

I'd imagine they would have to maintain Jewish beliefs (as opposed to other religions' beliefs) and practice Torah Law to some degree in order to conform at the very least to the Reform position on what constitutes a religious Jew. Obviously as you move to the right that standard would fall short.
For instance, if one were to practice Torah Law but maintain a Christian belief, that would probably be something like SDA or perhaps a stringent form of Messianic Judaism.

In that regard, I would say that to be a religious Jew is to be exclusive of other beliefs.

 

[metis]

In that regard, I would say that to be a religious Jew is to be exclusive of other beliefs.

To a certain degree I buy this, but not entirely.

It is rather normal to question ourselves and what we have been taught, and I don't see that as a weakness. On top of that, just how certain can we be that Torah/Tanakh/halacha in their entirety are absolutely accurate?

Also, there are a great many beliefs we share with other religions, especially within the Abrahamic faiths, and this is not by coincidence. Is it possible that we may learn something from another faith that may help us? Do we really think that we have all the best answers? What about learning from scientific evidence, some of which may have us questioning some of our scriptural narratives? Do we just dismiss the science and stick with that which comforts us?

So, imo, how far can one go before they no longer are a "Jew"? That's going to be highly subjective since the term "Jew" in reality is an abstract concept, thus prone to subjective definitions as we've seen. However, a particular branch and/or shul may decide what the parameters must be, and that's fine and dandy as far as it goes. But if we're at a website like RF, where we now are, it needs to be mentioned that there simply is no slam-dunk definition that cuts across Judaism. If a person says "I am a Jew", in the vast majority of cases I'll take them at their word unless I have strong reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Still not seen any standard mentioned. Without some kind of credo, it seems that anyone can just declare someone what they wish.

Agreed.

Furthermore, the best candidate for 'credo' is likely Rambam's 13 Principles. But, were that the case, I (and many, many others) would fail to make the cut.

 

[metis]

Furthermore, the best candidate for 'credo' is likely Rambam's 13 Principles. But, were that the case, I (and many, many others) would fail to make the cut.

But the RAMBAM was highly criticized for coming up with that because our tradition felt all the Commandments were important and that all had to be followed as closely as possible. Being presumptuous enough whereas I supposedly could speak for the critics, how's this: "Mr. Maimonides, how dare you relegate the other 600 Commandments to minority status!".

 

[Zardoz]

Agreed.

Furthermore, the best candidate for 'credo' is likely Rambam's 13 Principles. But, were that the case, I (and many, many others) would fail to make the cut.

Finally, the best answer. I would say that a Jew would have to agree at least in theory with these, and not outright reject them, even if they struggle with them.

For reference:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm

The great codifier of Torah law and Jewish philosophy, Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon ("Maimonides" also known as "The Rambam"), compiled what he refers to as the Shloshah Asar Ikkarim, the "Thirteen Fundamental Principles" of the Jewish faith, as derived from the Torah. Maimonides refers to these thirteen principles of faith as "the fundamental truths of our religion and its very foundations." The Thirteen Principles of Jewish faith are as follows:

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G‑d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G‑d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G‑d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship G‑d exclusively and no foreign false gods.

6. The belief that G‑d communicates with man through prophecy.

7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.

9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.

10. The belief in G‑d's omniscience and providence.

11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

It is the custom of many congregations to recite the Thirteen Articles, in a slightly more poetic form, beginning with the words Ani Maamin--"I believe"--every day after the morning prayers in the synagogue.

 

[Zardoz]

But the RAMBAM was highly criticized for coming up with that because our tradition felt all the Commandments were important and that all had to be followed as closely as possible. Being presumptuous enough whereas I supposedly could speak for the critics, how's this: "Mr. Maimonides, how dare you relegate the other 600 Commandments to minority status!".

That is a very Ashkenazic position, treating ALL mitzvot as equal. Many Sephardic traditions rather do hold to a hierarchy of mitzvot, based in part on reason and the Torah specified punishments for violation. That is how I was taught. Not that one could ignore the minor ones, but the major ones were higher priority. Making all mitzvot the same priority is a concept that my very being rejects.

 

[Zardoz]

I'd imagine they would have to maintain Jewish beliefs (as opposed to other religions' beliefs) and practice Torah Law to some degree in order to conform at the very least to the Reform position on what constitutes a religious Jew. Obviously as you move to the right that standard would fall short.
For instance, if one were to practice Torah Law but maintain a Christian belief, that would probably be something like SDA or perhaps a stringent form of Messianic Judaism.

In that regard, I would say that to be a religious Jew is to be exclusive of other beliefs.

Actually, SDA is nothing like Judaism, they have their own ways of doing things. Once I went to a SDA home, and found their version of a mezzuza; the Shema written up one doorpost, across the top, and down the other. I liked it, very striking. I'd do it maybe. I'd still have our mezzuza mind you, but... it did the job, the intent of the mitzva, better than our version. A reminder, indeed.

Let's say there was a Jew who was enthusiastically into Animal Spirit Guides. Nothing in that against the above mentioned 13 principles nor any mitzvot as far as I know. Just a harmless belief. Maybe odd, but certainly can be tolerated. Toleration, rather than seeking rejection and isolation, based on something that really matters not to one's Judaism.