[Abrahamics ONLY] Who is a Jew?

[Tumah]

You don't communicate with your ASG, you learn about your nature from it, like some think your Astrological sign tells about your nature. Horoscopes are a problem and why I didn't pick Astrology as my example.

Taking signs from natural occurrences may be a transgression of Lev. 19:26.
You said that it was like horoscopes. Its not the horoscope that is prohibited but the information that is gleaned from it. that would be similar to what you are saying.

 

[Zardoz]

No, I said it was like Astrology WITHOUT the Horoscopes which is Divination and prohibited.
Just insight into one's nature.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sure:

Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, better known as Maimonides or "The Rambam" (1135–1204 CE), lived at a time when both Christianity and Islam were developing active theologies. Jewish scholars were often asked to attest to their faith by their counterparts in other religions. The Rambam's 13 principles of faith were formulated in his commentary on the Mishnah (tractate Sanhedrin, chapter 10). They were one of several efforts by Jewish theologians in the Middle Ages to create such a list. By the time of Maimonides, centers of Jewish learning and law were dispersed geographically. Judaism no longer had a central authority that might bestow official approval on his principles of faith.

Maimonides' 13 principles were controversial when first proposed, evoking criticism by Crescas and Joseph Albo. They evoked criticism as minimizing acceptance of the entire Torah (Rabbi S. of Montpelier, Yad Rama, Y. Alfacher, Rosh Amanah). The 13 principles were ignored by much of the Jewish community for the next few centuries. (Dogma in Medieval Jewish Thought, Menachem Kellner). Over time two poetic restatements of these principles (Ani Ma'amin and Yigdal) became canonized in the Jewish prayerbook. Eventually, Maimonides' 13 principles of faith became the mostly widely accepted statement of belief... -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_principles_of_faith#Maimonides.27_13_principles_of_faith

However, my original source was from a book on Maimonides, which I probably have stuffed somewhere.

...And, as we all likely know--paraphrase here--Rambam said "Ha Shem made an error saying echad instead of yachid; G_d is one singular, not a plural unity of oneness"--you know, like the Messianics and goyim say! Shame.

 

[Tumah]

...And, as we all likely know--paraphrase here--Rambam said "Ha Shem made an error saying echad instead of yachid; G_d is one singular, not a plural unity of oneness"--you know, like the Messianics and goyim say! Shame.

Source for this paraphrased statement please.

 

[RabbiO]

Source for this paraphrased statement please.

I've never seen before the argument that Rambam said G-d made a mistake, rather I've seen the argument, from some Christians, that Rambam either made a mistake... or deliberately distorted the issue-- by substituting yachid for echad in the 13 Principles.

However, I think this, from Rambam puts that idea into the trash can -
אלוה זה אחד הוא--אינו לא שניים ולא יתר על שניים, אלא אחד, שאין כייחודו אחד מן האחדים הנמצאים בעולם: לא אחד כמין שהוא כולל אחדים הרבה, ולא אחד כגוף שהוא נחלק למחלקות ולקצוות; אלא ייחוד שאין ייחוד אחר כמותו בעולם

 

[Tumah]

I've never seen before the argument that Rambam said G-d made a mistake, rather I've seen the argument, from some Christians, that Rambam either made a mistake... or deliberately distorted the issue-- by substituting yachid for echad in the 13 Principles.

However, I think this, from Rambam puts that idea into the trash can -
אלוה זה אחד הוא--אינו לא שניים ולא יתר על שניים, אלא אחד, שאין כייחודו אחד מן האחדים הנמצאים בעולם: לא אחד כמין שהוא כולל אחדים הרבה, ולא אחד כגוף שהוא נחלק למחלקות ולקצוות; אלא ייחוד שאין ייחוד אחר כמותו בעולם

So, uhm. Should we tell them that what the Rambam actually wrote in his 13 principles was:

והיסוד השני, יחוד השם יתברך. כלומר שזה שהוא סיבת הכל אחד. ואינו כאחד הזוג, ולא כאחד המין, ולא כאישׁ האחד המורכב שהוא נחלק לאחדים רבים; ולא אחד כמו הגוף הפשוט האחד במנין שמקבל החילוק והפרידה לאין סוף. אבל הוא יתעלה אחד באחדות שאין כמותה אחדות בשום פנים. וזה היסוד השני מורה עליו מה שנאמר (דברים ו ד): שמע ישראל ה' אלקינו ה' אחד​

and that the 13 principles commonly found in prayer books were written by someone else much later?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm still trying to figure out what's behind taking the question "Who is a Jew?" and intentionally soliciting responses from those who are not.

 

[RabbiO]

So, uhm. Should we tell them that what the Rambam actually wrote in his 13 principles was:

והיסוד השני, יחוד השם יתברך. כלומר שזה שהוא סיבת הכל אחד. ואינו כאחד הזוג, ולא כאחד המין, ולא כאישׁ האחד המורכב שהוא נחלק לאחדים רבים; ולא אחד כמו הגוף הפשוט האחד במנין שמקבל החילוק והפרידה לאין סוף. אבל הוא יתעלה אחד באחדות שאין כמותה אחדות בשום פנים. וזה היסוד השני מורה עליו מה שנאמר (דברים ו ד): שמע ישראל ה' אלקינו ה' אחד​

and that the 13 principles commonly found in prayer books were written by someone else much later?

Thank you.

I'm at home and not all of my stuff is here and my memory isn't good enough anymore - if it ever was - to quote that by heart and I didn't want to screw it up.

Isn't nice to know that sometimes Reform and Mega Super Ultra Orthodox Jews are on the same page?

 

[Tumah]

Thank you.

I'm at home and not all of my stuff is here and my memory isn't good enough anymore - if it ever was - to quote that by heart and I didn't want to screw it up.

A helpful reference site.

 

[RabbiO]

A helpful reference site.

My thanks again. I've bookmarked it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I've never seen before the argument that Rambam said G-d made a mistake, rather I've seen the argument, from some Christians, that Rambam either made a mistake... or deliberately distorted the issue-- by substituting yachid for echad in the 13 Principles.

However, I think this, from Rambam puts that idea into the trash can -
אלוה זה אחד הוא--אינו לא שניים ולא יתר על שניים, אלא אחד, שאין כייחודו אחד מן האחדים הנמצאים בעולם: לא אחד כמין שהוא כולל אחדים הרבה, ולא אחד כגוף שהוא נחלק למחלקות ולקצוות; אלא ייחוד שאין ייחוד אחר כמותו בעולם

Well, who could blame them? At least the goyish believers are excited about every "yot" and tittle in the Hebrew, my friends! It was a huge witness to me that the goyim LOVED and ADORED and SAVORED every word of Tanakh--while my rabbis--may G_d bless them and no offense, were mostly revisionists more excited about Talmudic commentary on Moses than every word Ha Shem revealed to Moishe!

 

[BilliardsBall]

You're conflating different things. Jewish society was both patrilineal and largely patriarchal, but not when it came to "who is a Jew". If you were in the right forum (Same Faith Debates), which you are not, I'd press you on how is it that you supposedly know that the Bible (your Bible, I assume) supposedly squeezes out the other texts.

BTW, I really don't likely think any of us here are really interested in your concept of "salvation".

1. So you are admitting the Bible does go on the patriarchal line for who is Jewish?

2. And we can start with which of the following:

*Tanakh
*Talmud
*Zohar
*Apocrypha
*etc. etc.

Says in it thousands of times, thousands of times, "...hear... obey... listen to... the word of the Lord... the word of G_d."

3. Have I told you my concept of "salvation"? How do you know you aren't really interested in it? Are you uninterested in salvation from a Jewish, not Gentile, Messiah? Not an imam, not an avatar, not a guru, not a mere Rabbi or Kohen or even a Kohen Gadol, but the very logos/ethos of Ha Shem? I bet you are interested--not that I'm looking to proselytize--but since you mentioned it:

a) There are many good Jewish people in this world
b) There are no perfect Jewish people, me included
c) After all, being sort of/striving to be perfect is like being a "little pregnant" or "a little dead" or "a little born again"
d) Messiah offers perfection to all who trust Him--after all, in the world to come, if you hurt another, it isn't the glorious Olam HaBa
e) Who is this Messiah? ...is what I'm asking, if you don't mind my asking...?
f) Baruch Ha Shem!

 

[Tumah]

Well, who could blame them? At least the goyish believers are excited about every "yot" and tittle in the Hebrew, my friends! It was a huge witness to me that the goyim LOVED and ADORED and SAVORED every word of Tanakh--while my rabbis--may G_d bless them and no offense, were mostly revisionists more excited about Talmudic commentary on Moses than every word Ha Shem revealed to Moishe!

Its funny to hear a Christian complaining about revisionism.
No, not funny.
Ironic.

 

[metis]

1. So you are admitting the Bible does go on the patriarchal line for who is Jewish?

2. And we can start with which of the following:

*Tanakh
*Talmud
*Zohar
*Apocrypha
*etc. etc.

Says in it thousands of times, thousands of times, "...hear... obey... listen to... the word of the Lord... the word of G_d."

3. Have I told you my concept of "salvation"? How do you know you aren't really interested in it? Are you uninterested in salvation from a Jewish, not Gentile, Messiah? Not an imam, not an avatar, not a guru, not a mere Rabbi or Kohen or even a Kohen Gadol, but the very logos/ethos of Ha Shem? I bet you are interested--not that I'm looking to proselytize--but since you mentioned it:

a) There are many good Jewish people in this world
b) There are no perfect Jewish people, me included
c) After all, being sort of/striving to be perfect is like being a "little pregnant" or "a little dead" or "a little born again"
d) Messiah offers perfection to all who trust Him--after all, in the world to come, if you hurt another, it isn't the glorious Olam HaBa
e) Who is this Messiah? ...is what I'm asking, if you don't mind my asking...?
f) Baruch Ha Shem!

Um, I taught Christian theology to adults for 14 years and a comparative religions course for another two years, so I know where you're coming from and where the flaws are. However, I'm really not that interested in trying to tear a Christian away from his/her faith because I consider that unethical.

So, let me just leave you with this: in the area of religious belief, there is far more uncertainty than certainty, and one of the worst approaches is for us to somehow believe we have a lock on the truth, whatever that may be. If we think we have, we are only deluding ourselves.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Its funny to hear a Christian complaining about revisionism.
No, not funny.
Ironic.

Even more ironic. A Jewish Christian encouraging a Jewish leader, influencer, proselytizer and sage to PAY ATTENTION TO TORAH AND TANAKH above all the noise. G-d's revered Word. It dwells among us inside the ark of Him; it dwells beneath the lions of David; we must touch our garments to it and kiss it lest we be like the kohen who died when he touched it, blessed be the Name forever.

Who has descended and gathered the wind in His fists? Who is G_d's Son? Who is the afikomon (the sole Greek word in our practice) between Him who is above and His Spirit who dwells beneath?

Yes, there are terrible ironies in that the Gentiles abandoned reason, orthopractice and more to make "church" their twisted "congregations" but that doesn't mean we cannot find truth--we just have to look a bit harder, that's all. The Kingdom of Messiah is like a pearl hidden in a man's backyard. He toiled, perspiring, digging it from the ground, then sold all he had to possess it longer.

I'm excited that you are excited about mega-super-orthodox life and belief (which are one and the same if you think about it) but...

...But, don't miss Messiah when he knocks on the door. One of our sages wrote,

"Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to G_d for us, for them, is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for G_d, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about G_d’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Messiah Y’shua is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Um, I taught Christian theology to adults for 14 years and a comparative religions course for another two years, so I know where you're coming from and where the flaws are. However, I'm really not that interested in trying to tear a Christian away from his/her faith because I consider that unethical.

So, let me just leave you with this: in the area of religious belief, there is far more uncertainty than certainty, and one of the worst approaches is for us to somehow believe we have a lock on the truth, whatever that may be. If we think we have, we are only deluding ourselves.

Um, if you're not wishing to be unethical, you wouldn't say you have 16 years of experience with flaws in my faith. I've taught Christian theology to college students for over 25 years, so I have 9 more years of (corrected) error.

Now, while I see your zeal for me not to be zealous for a lock on the truth, please bear in mind that Yochanan the zealous (not Yochanan the immerser) tell us Messiah Y'shua said I AM THE TRUTH.

 

[metis]

Um, if you're not wishing to be unethical, you wouldn't say you have 16 years of experience with flaws in my faith. I've taught Christian theology to college students for over 25 years, so I have 9 more years of (corrected) error.

Now, while I see your zeal for me not to be zealous for a lock on the truth, please bear in mind that Yochanan the zealous (not Yochanan the immerser) tell us Messiah Y'shua said I AM THE TRUTH.

I would suggest that a person who is supposedly adept at Christian theology would actually act like a Christian and not make blanket and stereotypical statements about other people in other faiths. If you taught those students what I have seen you post just over the last few minutes, I truly feel sorry for them as you have set one terrible example.

Since it's obvious that your "faith" does not include apologizing when you have judged and condemned others, and not just towards me btw, then I feel such disgust for your morally repugnant behavior that right after this I'm putting you on my ignore list.

Goodbye

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Now, while I see your zeal for me not to be zealous for a lock on the truth, please bear in mind that Yochanan the zealous (not Yochanan the immerser) tell us Messiah Y'shua said I AM THE TRUTH.

One would think that such inspired truth would at least be minimally coherent.

I'm with @metis ...

 

[rosends]

One of our sages wrote,

No, one of YOUR sages. Not "our."

 

[Flankerl]

BlablablaJesusisthelightBlalablaAllthatothercraptoconvertJewsBlablabla