[Abrahamics ONLY] Who is a Jew?

[Tumah]

Technically, the individual referenced, Joel Chernoff, may be a Jew, but it would be hard to call him Jewish.

Chernoff was raised as a Messianic Jew, i.e. a Christian. His parents were the founders of a messianic congregation.

I did a brief google, but it looked like a kids poem or something, so I just carried on. Thanks for the information.

 

[Tumah]

What our friend does not seem to realize is that without little holes matzah - as well most leavened crackers I can think of, although the holes are harder to see with leavened products - would have air bubbles that in the extreme heat of baking would explode, leaving shattered pieces of matzah clinging to the sides of the oven.

And his entire metaphor kind of falls apart when he'll realize that crunchy cracker matzah is a new invention of the past few hundred years. Matzah was always soft until recently. No holes needed.

 

[metis]

Maybe he can let us know when these happened or are supposedly going to happen with Jesus:


The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)



Hey, when these all supposedly happen, then maybe even I will believe.

 

[metis]

And his entire metaphor kind of falls apart when he'll realize that crunchy cracker matzah is a new invention of the past few hundred years. Matzah was always soft until recently. No holes needed.

Fresh is best.

Question: Why do airplane designers put holes in lines on the wings of planes like is done with matzo?

Answer: So they'll never break that way.

 

[RabbiO]

And his entire metaphor kind of falls apart when he'll realize that crunchy cracker matzah is a new invention of the past few hundred years. Matzah was always soft until recently. No holes needed.

Apparently there has been some controversy, on this side of the word at least, as to the acceptability of soft matzah for Ashkenazim.

 

[rosends]

for reference http://www.jewishboston.com/279-jewishboston-com/blogs/1790-baking-soft-matza

 

[BilliardsBall]

Technically, the individual referenced, Joel Chernoff, may be a Jew, but it would be hard to call him Jewish.

Chernoff was raised as a Messianic Jew, i.e. a Christian. His parents were the founders of a messianic congregation.

And? He likes Katz's Deli more than Carnegie's, I can tell you that. There are so few of us in the world, we could use a few more. You know, the Gentiles, they sometimes like to think of themselves as Jews because they love Y'shua. Crazy, nu? But the truth is, Y'shua told us to beware because many from East and West would dine and recline with Avraham who were not of the original sheepfold. Reminds me of this statement:

"...And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious."

 

[BilliardsBall]

I see. So by limiting religious practice to a certain area, you can make sure you get the answer you want.


Yes, that's my argument.


Do me a favor and go through this list of Jewish Messiahs, let me know which one is yours.
Thanks.

That's an interesting concept. Degree of Jewishness indicates degree of perfection.

Nope not Jewish.


Very good, you caught on! Why do you think I mentioned the Last Supper in a discussion about an afikomen?


I can tell you why: its because you say things that indicate you don't actually know very much about Judaism.

You keep saying "we" but there is no "we". You're not part of the family. I don't know why you keep saying "we".

It looks like your argument is, "There have been many false Messiahs so Y'shua must be false also," but will you say that when Messiah comes? Here's a way you can sort the bad eggs from the good seed:


Jesus hailed from Galilee: "...In Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who

walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in the land of

the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined...For unto us a Child is

born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.

And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting

Father, Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:2-6 (Isaiah is in the Jewish Tanakh, what

Christians call the Old Testament. Who is called today the Prince of Peace?

And so on...)


Messiah from David's house and followed by Gentiles: "...There shall be a

Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles

shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious." -Isaiah 11:10


Messiah would disseminate Law of Moses to the nations: "Behold! My Servant

whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit

upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles."-Isaiah 42:6


Messiah from a woman and hidden, also despised by Israel. "...The Lord has

called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of

My name. And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His

hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has

hidden Me." ... "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant, To

raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I

will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My

salvation to the ends of the earth. Thus says the Lord, The Redeemer of

Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation

abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also

shall worship, Because of the Lord who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel;

And He has chosen You."-Isaiah 49:1-7


Nations to spend their wealth on raising churches and memorials to Messiah:

"The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your

rising." ... The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you. -Isaiah 60:3


Incense burned in Messiah's name worldwide: "For from the rising of the sun,

even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every

place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name

shall be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts."-Malachi 1:11

(Tanakh)


Jews scattered for rejection of Messiah: "The Gentiles shall know that the

house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were

unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the

hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword."-Ezekiel 39:23

(Tanakh)


Which Jewish person, from the House of David, made secretly inside a woman's

womb, who lived in Galilee and was despised by [most of] Israel, has

worldwide worshippers (from among all the Gentiles who spend their wealth in

His name and service) and came to earth to be rejected just before Israel

was scattered in 70 AD?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Where in the tanach is "afikoman" found?

Wow -- so you take talmudic ideas and then bastardize them? That's fabulous.


You must be talking to someone else. I hadn't mentioned maror. You said "then go around our dining table each breaking off a piece and eating it with bitterness," and no one -- NO ONE eats the afikoman with bitterness.
So, regardless of your supposed 45 years of anything, you have no idea what you are talking about.


You can use whatever method you want to justify your ignorance. The talmudic quote you seem to like is not one which supports your case.
By the way, I noticed that you also wrote, " Look at matzoh and tell me it doesn't have holes in it in striped patterns."
I tried that...you see striped patterns? Get your eyes checked.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5225/5638971034_6a484e92bd_b.jpg>

Thanks for pursuing this line of reasoning with me. Did you look at actual matzo or a photographic representation of matzo like the one you posted?

Y'shua is the representation in His body of the glory of G_d. He was striped and pierced for us. I won't bother to post Isaiah 53; you will have the usual lines of argumentation, but you may want to go back and look at Isaiah 52. If you look at it as closely as you look at photos of matzo, and see between the lines, you'll get a good read.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Can you clarify what Biblical practice has to do with the Rabbinical enactment of eating the afikomen?

Neither are afikomen or Passover seders of any type (including last seders).
Are you sure you want to go that way?


So because you knew someone who did that, you were able to create a metaphor for your mishegas? OK. But you'll understand if Jews won't buy into something so flimsy then right...?


She sells she sells at the she shore.
.
.
Doh!


Yes, there is marror. But that has nothing to do with the afikomen at all. So its unclear why you are bringing it up altogether.


I don't think Occam is going to appreciate how you're using his razor.

These one-liners of your are not helpful. Do you do nights and weekends at the Friar's Club? (Get it? Friar's Club, mostly Jewish comedians, Occam/Franciscan friar...)

But the red lights flash when you say foolish things like "Rabbinical enactment of eating the afikoman." There weren't rabbis when the practice was incepted, it was done in homes. You sound like a Catholic priest enacting the transubstantiation.

My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children."

Not being a rabbi myself, I fear a bit less from the Hosea passage above. Be careful!

 

[BilliardsBall]

What our friend does not seem to realize is that without little holes matzah - as well most leavened crackers I can think of, although the holes are harder to see with leavened products - would have air bubbles that in the extreme heat of baking would explode, leaving shattered pieces of matzah clinging to the sides of the oven.

Maybe then you should ask Moishe how they baked 'em in Egypt. He could likely show you a better way. At the least, I get charged for the whole matzo when I buy it, no one ever discounts the holes... if they did it would be wholesale. Get it?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I can't even tell if you're being serious.
The lines of holes is a modern invention. Along with crunchy matza. Just a few hundred years ago matzah was soft. It looked like like laffa bread. It had no holes or striped pattern. Yemenites and some other Sephardim still eat it that way.
I'm sure you knew that in your 45 year in Olam Hazeh.


...whatever.


You mean Paschal Goat. Since goats could also be used in the Passover sacrifice.


Maimonides quotes Talmudic passages that anyone can read for themselves.
Paul writes a story that no one can validate.

Who to trust...?

Spoken just like a real Christian!


Being circumcised and liberally sprinkling your English with Yiddish does not make you a Jew.
If your parents were also Christian Jews, then there's a good chance you'd have to be re-circumcised were you to ever repent.
Unless, you're a woman, calling a man "G-d" makes you for all practical purposes, a non-Jew. Let's see if you do that...


That didn't take long!

I meant lamb, since Y'shua is the lamb who takes the sin and ALSO as Rebbe Shaul reminds us, the one, who like the sacrifices of old, was slain outside the Temple for sin. Ever wonder why there were two goats?

If it's "spoken like a real Christian" to remind you that the Word of God is holier than the commentaries of Rambam, I'll be a Christian. You should live and be well, if it makes you happy to call me names. You should know I'm grieved by your insults. If a man grieves because Jewish people say he isn't Jewish, he is Jewish? Perhaps not. And I didn't say I was circumcised like some goy. I had a little taken off the top in my family's home by a mohel, you should know... and I hope you don't think being circumcised and speaking Yiddish makes me the Pope, either. I'm a Jew. I think maybe you have a yen for Hebrew? My Hebrew is none too good but I can try:

בתשובה, Y'shua הוא המשיח

I'm wearied by seeing the modern sages sitting with giant Talmuds on their lap. We touch our fringes to something so holy instead...

...However, in any court of law or logic, Gentile or Jew, any judge calling the commentary the authentic and the originals less so is not a good judge.

Paul writes stories that may be validated.

I call Y'shua G_d, as did Paul. You can despise me for that, but when the Gentiles called Y'shua G_d, they fulfill the Tanakh:

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

 

[Tumah]

It looks like your argument is, "There have been many false Messiahs so Y'shua must be false also," but will you say that when Messiah comes?

When the messiah comes, I will obviously not say that. Since he will be the messiah.
That has nothing to do with Jesus though.

Here's a way you can sort the bad eggs from the good seed:


Jesus hailed from Galilee: "...In Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who

walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in the land of

the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined...For unto us a Child is

born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.

And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting

Father, Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:2-6 (Isaiah is in the Jewish Tanakh, what

Christians call the Old Testament. Who is called today the Prince of Peace?

Well, he is, for one.
But anyway, that's a prophecy about Hezekiah.

And so on...)


Messiah from David's house and followed by Gentiles: "...There shall be a

Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles

shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious." -Isaiah 11:10

Yes, we're still waiting on that one.

Messiah would disseminate Law of Moses to the nations: "Behold! My Servant

whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit

upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles."-Isaiah 42:6

the NT claims that Jesus did away with the Mosaic Law.
Not that that would help your argument, being that he's dead.

Messiah from a woman and hidden, also despised by Israel. "...The Lord has

called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of

My name. And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His

hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has

hidden Me." ... "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant, To

raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I

will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My

salvation to the ends of the earth. Thus says the Lord, The Redeemer of

Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation

abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also

shall worship, Because of the Lord who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel;

And He has chosen You."-Isaiah 49:1-7

This is a passage about Isaiah, the guy whose speaking and using first-person grammar.

Nations to spend their wealth on raising churches and memorials to Messiah:

"The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your

rising." ... The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you. -Isaiah 60:3

A prophecy about Zion.
Also, its all in the feminine form (Jesus isn't a female).

Incense burned in Messiah's name worldwide: "For from the rising of the sun,

even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every

place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name

shall be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts."-Malachi 1:11

A prophecy about G-d.

(Tanakh)


Jews scattered for rejection of Messiah: "The Gentiles shall know that the

house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were

unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the

hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword."-Ezekiel 39:23

A prophecy about the Babylonian exile. Happened way before Jesus was born.

(Tanakh)


Which Jewish person, from the House of David, made secretly inside a woman's

womb, who lived in Galilee and was despised by [most of] Israel, has

worldwide worshippers (from among all the Gentiles who spend their wealth in

His name and service) and came to earth to be rejected just before Israel

was scattered in 70 AD?

You need to rephrase your question to include the fact that you took non-Messianic prophecies and made them Messianic prophecies.

 

[Tumah]

These one-liners of your are not helpful. Do you do nights and weekends at the Friar's Club? (Get it? Friar's Club, mostly Jewish comedians, Occam/Franciscan friar...)

But the red lights flash when you say foolish things like "Rabbinical enactment of eating the afikoman." There weren't rabbis when the practice was incepted, it was done in homes. You sound like a Catholic priest enacting the transubstantiation.

Are you...serious?

My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children."

Not being a rabbi myself, I fear a bit less from the Hosea passage above. Be careful!

↓

 

[Tumah]

I meant lamb, since Y'shua is the lamb who takes the sin

You mean the female lamb sin-offering that is brought for unintentional sins?

and ALSO as Rebbe Shaul reminds us, the one, who like the sacrifices of old, was slain outside the Temple for sin.

The one outside the Temple was tossed off a mountain. Was Jesus tossed off a mountain?
Oh yeah, and it was a GOAT not a person.

Ever wonder why there were two goats?

Nope.
Were there two Jesuses?

If it's "spoken like a real Christian" to remind you that the Word of God is holier than the commentaries of Rambam, I'll be a Christian. You should live and be well, if it makes you happy to call me names. You should know I'm grieved by your insults.

What do you mean "you'll be a question"? You are a Christian.

"You should live and be well"? Real question: I've noticed Messianics tend to speak as though they learned their Yiddishisms from Jackie Mason. What's the reason for that?

If a man grieves because Jewish people say he isn't Jewish, he is Jewish? Perhaps not. And I didn't say I was circumcised like some goy. I had a little taken off the top in my family's home by a mohel, you should know... and I hope you don't think being circumcised and speaking Yiddish makes me the Pope, either. I'm a Jew.

A Jew who chooses to believe in other gods, looses his status as a Jew for practical purposes. That means you don't count in a quorum three or ten Jewish men for any Jewish rituals anymore than a non-Jew does. If non-boiled wine is opened at a table you sit at, it becomes undrinkable to Jews. If we had the Temple today, you would not be invited to join with anyone in eating their Passover sacrifice.
No matter how bad you feel about it.

I think maybe you have a yen for Hebrew? My Hebrew is none too good but I can try:

בתשובה, Y'shua הוא המשיח

Try again.

I'm wearied by seeing the modern sages sitting with giant Talmuds on their lap. We touch our fringes to something so holy instead...

...what?

...However, in any court of law or logic, Gentile or Jew, any judge calling the commentary the authentic and the originals less so is not a good judge.

...says that guy who bases his faith on fabricated books.

Paul writes stories that may be validated.

Right.

I call Y'shua G_d, as did Paul.

So now you're both mistaken.

You can despise me for that, but when the Gentiles called Y'shua G_d, they fulfill the Tanakh:

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

No, this was fulfilled by Isaiah. It doesn't need to be fulfilled after it was already fulfilled.

 

[rosends]

Thanks for pursuing this line of reasoning with me. Did you look at actual matzo or a photographic representation of matzo like the one you posted?

The matzah I posted is the same type as I buy. Every year. So your point is negated.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh yeah, and it was a GOAT not a person.

Yes, and I'm sure you realize Paul/Shaul was using an allegory. There were two goats, in case you weren't wondering, so that one could die and the other be set free. Substitutionary atonement is what Christians call it.

No, this was fulfilled by Isaiah. It doesn't need to be fulfilled after it was already fulfilled.

How do you know? Are you sure? I'm certain there are prophecies that have been doubly-fulfilled and I'm certain God is much bigger than the box where you presently have Him trapped.

This is a passage about Isaiah, the guy whose speaking and using first-person grammar.

Isaiah is the "Lord's salvation unto the ends of the Earth"? Shouldn't you pay closer attention to him, then, rather than Talmud, tradition and (frankly) superstition? Shouldn't you be telling more Gentiles Isaiah can save them?

...the NT claims that Jesus did away with the Mosaic Law.

That isn't what Jesus said, however, as a Jew I can certainly your consternation at such a possibility--or at least until we understand that Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc. didn't have the Law [waits for you to insert mystical mumbo/jumbo here that they somehow had the MOSAIC Law] since the womb [except for Adam, of course]

 

[Desert Snake]

'''Jew'', becomes a label of less definition, by necessity.

//Therefore, the definition 'varies', by group, and even by individual.

This is really the same with many such labels

 

[BilliardsBall]

'''Jew'', becomes a label of less definition, by necessity.

//Therefore, the definition 'varies', by group, and even by individual.

This is really the same with many such labels

q,

You came to the wrong thread to promote such an idea. LOL. A Jewish person is one outwardly or inwardly or both. We all to find the lines and color inside them accordingly.

 

[BilliardsBall]

All,

It was not my intent to provoke your ire. A simple reading of the Tanakh led me to pursue the Messiah. I've found Him.