[Abrahamics ONLY] Who is a Jew?

[Tumah]

Even more ironic. A Jewish Christian encouraging a Jewish leader, influencer, proselytizer and sage

What...?

to PAY ATTENTION TO TORAH AND TANAKH above all the noise. G-d's revered Word. It dwells among us inside the ark of Him; it dwells beneath the lions of David; we must touch our garments to it and kiss it lest we be like the kohen who died when he touched it, blessed be the Name forever.

What...?

Who has descended and gathered the wind in His fists? Who is G_d's Son?

I'm guessing your Hebrew isn't that great.

Who is the afikomon (the sole Greek word in our practice) between Him who is above and His Spirit who dwells beneath?

I wasn't aware that Christians also use the word afikomen. Not sure why I would care if its the only Greek word you guys use...

Yes, there are terrible ironies in that the Gentiles abandoned reason, orthopractice and more to make "church" their twisted "congregations" but that doesn't mean we cannot find truth--we just have to look a bit harder, that's all. The Kingdom of Messiah is like a pearl hidden in a man's backyard. He toiled, perspiring, digging it from the ground, then sold all he had to possess it longer.

Whatever.

I'm excited that you are excited about mega-super-orthodox life and belief (which are one and the same if you think about it) but...

Whatever.

Might I also extend my excitement towards your willingness to paraphrase a non-existent passage in Maimonides.

...But, don't miss Messiah when he knocks on the door.

Seems a problem you are more likely to have than me. Your messiah already has long ago decomposed in the ground, while mine has yet to be born.

One of our sages wrote,

"Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to G_d for us, for them, is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for G_d, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about G_d’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Messiah Y’shua is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Its always odd when Christians quote their books to Jews as though we would possibly even take the time to read the quote...[/quote]

 

[rosends]

kapandria and sanhedrin jump to mind.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

BlablablaJesusisthelightBlalablaAllthatothercraptoconvertJewsBlablabla

Hallelujah! I've seen the light!

 

[Tumah]

kapandria and sanhedrin jump to mind.

Apikoros and istinis were what I thought of, off hand. I guess you have a more positive mindset than me.

 

[rosends]

Apikoros and istinis were what I thought of, off hand. I guess you have a more positive mindset than me.

I was considering aspaklaria but I looked it up and found it was Latin.

 

[Tumah]

I was considering aspaklaria but I looked it up and found it was Latin.

I had the same thing with matronisa and tyranya.

There are so many sole Greek and Latin words.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What...?

What...?


I'm guessing your Hebrew isn't that great.

I wasn't aware that Christians also use the word afikomen. Not sure why I would care if its the only Greek word you guys use...

Whatever.

Whatever.

Might I also extend my excitement towards your willingness to paraphrase a non-existent passage in Maimonides.

Seems a problem you are more likely to have than me. Your messiah already has long ago decomposed in the ground, while mine has yet to be born.


Its always odd when Christians quote their books to Jews as though we would possibly even take the time to read the quote...

[/QUOTE]

1. Afikoman is the sole Greek work in OUR JEWISH practice. OUR meaning moi et toi, bruchah.

2. A Jewish man I respect deeply wrote this:

Some say He's a carpenter,
Some say He's an angel,
Some say He's a healer,
What do you say?
Some say He was just a man,
Living in the Holy Land,
But I know He's much more than that.
This is what I say.
He is Messiah,
He is the King of Kings - Hallelu,
He is Messiah,
You better look up,
He's coming back soon.

The Prophets say,
He's from Go_d's Right Hand,
The King of Kings, Born in Bethlehem,
The sacrifice for the sin of man,
That's what they say.

So many people - abuse His name,
They do Him wrong - but just the same,
The truth is truth - on His word I stand,
Listen to what I say - Hallelu.

Are you ready - to see His face,
Yes He'll come - our tears erase.
And bring us peace,
Like He brought us grace.
That's what they say.

One day soon He'll come again,
Split the heavens and ride the wind,
Set His feet in Jerusalem.
Listen to what I say.
And the people will sing--yeah!

 

[BilliardsBall]

kapandria and sanhedrin jump to mind.

You must be joking... we don't use kapandria and Sanhedrin in Jewish liturgy. We don't break the Sanhedrin and hide it and find it on Pesach. Messiah is the afikoman, broken for us, pierced and striped for us, hidden then found to joy and the giving of a precious gift. The afikoman rests between the One who is above and Him who dwells below. We don't take the big portion of a "shortcut" and bury it under a white cloth and then go around our dining table each breaking off a piece and eating it with bitterness, you know, like what the goy call "breaking bread". Moses didn't direct us to bring "Sanhedrin" out of Egypt in haste!

 

[Tumah]

1. Afikoman is the sole Greek work in OUR JEWISH practice. OUR meaning moi et toi, bruchah.

No, the two of us don't practice the same faith. You are a Christian with Jewish heritage, I am a Jew with Jewish heritage. As much as it fills you with a feeling of authentication to believe so, you are definitely not practicing Judaism.
I will explain it to you:
The reason they came up with a name for what you practice instead of calling it Judaism is because its not Judaism. It needed a name.
They chose Christianity because it means people who follow [Jesus] whom you call 'christ'. Christianity comes from the word christ. Christianity includes numerous sub-sects with many varied beliefs. However a common feature of these sub-sects is the shared belief in the individual of Jesus as defined by the New Testament (NT) to one extent or another.

Incidentally, you may notice that Judaism is actually not called Christianity and its adherents do not follow Jesus.

Of lesser relevance, as was noted in a number of later posts, Afikoman is not the only Greek word used in Judaism. Perhaps as you sit down to your Last Supper commemorative meal this year, you may contemplate that you don't know as much as you thought about Judaism.

2. A Jewish man I respect deeply wrote this:

Some say He's a carpenter,
Some say He's an angel,
Some say He's a healer,
What do you say?
Some say He was just a man,
Living in the Holy Land,
But I know He's much more than that.
This is what I say.
He is Messiah,
He is the King of Kings - Hallelu,
He is Messiah,
You better look up,
He's coming back soon.

The Prophets say,
He's from Go_d's Right Hand,
The King of Kings, Born in Bethlehem,
The sacrifice for the sin of man,
That's what they say.

So many people - abuse His name,
They do Him wrong - but just the same,
The truth is truth - on His word I stand,
Listen to what I say - Hallelu.

Are you ready - to see His face,
Yes He'll come - our tears erase.
And bring us peace,
Like He brought us grace.
That's what they say.

One day soon He'll come again,
Split the heavens and ride the wind,
Set His feet in Jerusalem.
Listen to what I say.
And the people will sing--yeah!

There are many Jewish sinners.
Now I know one more.

 

[Tumah]

You must be joking... we don't use kapandria and Sanhedrin in Jewish liturgy. We don't break the Sanhedrin and hide it and find it on Pesach.

So you're argument is, because the words kapandria and Sanhedrin are not used during Passover rituals, they are not part of Judaism?
Well, it happens to be that there is a very important Jewish ritual, incumbent on all Jewish men at all times, where these words do feature multiple times. Its the ritual of Torah study. A key Jewish practice equal to all other Jewish practices.

Messiah is the afikoman, broken for us, pierced and striped for us, hidden then found to joy and the giving of a precious gift. The afikoman rests between the One who is above and Him who dwells below.

I've never pierced or striped my afikomen. Nor have I given or received a gift for it. That's extortion and its not a nice trait.
Was Jesus also stolen by the kids while his dad was washing his hands? Did you have to eat Jesus in big gulps that hurt the sides of your mouth and hits your stomach like a brick while getting crumbs all over the place? Did you keep looking at the clock to see if you can extend your meal before its time to eat your Jesus?
Wait are we talking about crunchy Ashkenazi Jesus, or floppy Sephardi Jesus?

We don't take the big portion of a "shortcut" and bury it under a white cloth

Neither do we. And we don't do it to the afikomen either.

and then go around our dining table each breaking off a piece and eating it with bitterness

Why would anyone eat the afikomen with bitterness? That doesn't even make sense.

you know, like what the goy call "breaking bread".

Those goyim must be quote mining from the Talmud. Weird.

 

[rosends]

You must be joking... we don't use kapandria and Sanhedrin in Jewish liturgy.

But Judaism and Jewish practice are both more expansive than the text of prayer. You wrote that "afikoman" was "the sole Greek word in our practice" but practice goes beyond just liturgy, doesn't it?

We don't break the Sanhedrin and hide it and find it on Pesach.

That's true, but we don't sit in front of an afikoman and plead legal cases!

Messiah is the afikoman, broken for us, pierced and striped for us, hidden then found to joy and the giving of a precious gift.

You do weird and unnatural things to matzah. My afikoman isn't broken, pierced or striped. It gives me no gifts. You have a weird relationship with food. Get help.

The afikoman rests between the One who is above and Him who dwells below.

No, it rests in my stomach.

We eat it.

It is a word meaning (according to some) "dessert." Some say it comes from "Apiku Manaichu" and not from the Greek. What is interesting is that the same liturgical sentence in which we mention the afikoman, we use a conjugation of the Greek, "Fateirah." In fact, the liturgical use is a sentence saying that we DON'T eat the afikoman at a certain point.

We don't take the big portion of a "shortcut" and bury it under a white cloth and then go around our dining table each breaking off a piece and eating it with bitterness,

I don't bury my food under a white cloth or eat it in bitterness. Are you new at this whole passover thing?

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, the two of us don't practice the same faith. You are a Christian with Jewish heritage, I am a Jew with Jewish heritage. As much as it fills you with a feeling of authentication to believe so, you are definitely not practicing Judaism.
I will explain it to you:
The reason they came up with a name for what you practice instead of calling it Judaism is because its not Judaism. It needed a name.
They chose Christianity because it means people who follow [Jesus] whom you call 'christ'. Christianity comes from the word christ. Christianity includes numerous sub-sects with many varied beliefs. However a common feature of these sub-sects is the shared belief in the individual of Jesus as defined by the New Testament (NT) to one extent or another.

Incidentally, you may notice that Judaism is actually not called Christianity and its adherents do not follow Jesus.

Of lesser relevance, as was noted in a number of later posts, Afikoman is not the only Greek word used in Judaism. Perhaps as you sit down to your Last Supper commemorative meal this year, you may contemplate that you don't know as much as you thought about Judaism.


There are many Jewish sinners.
Now I know one more.

I hate to argue with a brother, brother, but afikoman is the sole word in our Jewish liturgy and religious practice. Also, I can help you with the Greek cognate for the English under discussion.

Christian = follower of Christ

Christ = Messiah

I'm a follower of or one who trusts in Messiah. Not Allah, Buddha, the Pope. The Jewish Messiah. So Jewish his mother thought He was perfect and His adoptive father was upset He didn't want to be a doctor. Roses are red, violets are bluish, don't insult our intelligence by pretending Jesus wasn't Jewish.

PS. The Last Supper commemoration is a commemoration of a seder. I appreciate your zeal for Judaism but... you might want to research Messianic belief and practice much more.

PPS. Why with our people does it always come down to a remark like "You don't know Judaism"? I know why, because in our great emphasis on learning we have forgotten the emphases of obedience to Torah, not Talmud, and to brotherly love. Messiah Y'Shua--you'll find none smarter. But also, none more loving.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you're argument is, because the words kapandria and Sanhedrin are not used during Passover rituals, they are not part of Judaism?
Well, it happens to be that there is a very important Jewish ritual, incumbent on all Jewish men at all times, where these words do feature multiple times. Its the ritual of Torah study. A key Jewish practice equal to all other Jewish practices.

I've never pierced or striped my afikomen. Nor have I given or received a gift for it. That's extortion and its not a nice trait.
Was Jesus also stolen by the kids while his dad was washing his hands? Did you have to eat Jesus in big gulps that hurt the sides of your mouth and hits your stomach like a brick while getting crumbs all over the place? Did you keep looking at the clock to see if you can extend your meal before its time to eat your Jesus?
Wait are we talking about crunchy Ashkenazi Jesus, or floppy Sephardi Jesus?

Neither do we. And we don't do it to the afikomen either.

Why would anyone eat the afikomen with bitterness? That doesn't even make sense.

Those goyim must be quote mining from the Talmud. Weird.

My argument is you don't understand my argument, not that I'm wanting to insult your intelligence. You are very sharp. Look at matzoh and tell me it doesn't have holes in it in striped patterns. Are you baking your own or what? Tell me we don't eat matzoh at the same meal with bitter herbs at a seder? Such foolishness, even.

I'm glad you're excited about the heritage of the Sanhedrin and assorted shortcuts. Just don't cut across the Mount on the Shabbat, not so good in Greek or English.

I'm excited about the Paschal Lamb given for the sin of world. I'm excited about Moses leading our people out of Egypt. In Y'shua's day, there were religiously zealous men who were also excited about tradition. I'm excited about the Word of G_d. Look, even the middle letter of the three is hidden from us. Hmmm.

Three in One and One in Three, how errant was Maimonides? Rambam said it, so it must be true. We even wear our kippahs too. But never would do so in an ancient shul! Rebbe Shaul said keep hair uncovered, too. Save the coverings (and wigs) for the women, Jews!

I'm not trying to be pushy, here. And I should let you folks have the last word on this subject. But for G_d's sake, let us return in purity of spirit and worship at Him who made Rambam and not Rambam's doctrines. Which is better, the book or the commentary on the book! (It is the book... I bet we can find a ruling on this...)

And G_d love me and Ha Shem love you, you actually called me a goy?! I was circumcised on the eighth day of my life in this present world, the Olam Hazeh if you will, in my home, not a hospital. So much blood, there was. Oy!

"What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Messiah Y'shua my Adonai, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Messiah..."

 

[BilliardsBall]

But Judaism and Jewish practice are both more expansive than the text of prayer. You wrote that "afikoman" was "the sole Greek word in our practice" but practice goes beyond just liturgy, doesn't it?

That's true, but we don't sit in front of an afikoman and plead legal cases!

You do weird and unnatural things to matzah. My afikoman isn't broken, pierced or striped. It gives me no gifts. You have a weird relationship with food. Get help.

No, it rests in my stomach.


It is a word meaning (according to some) "dessert." Some say it comes from "Apiku Manaichu" and not from the Greek. What is interesting is that the same liturgical sentence in which we mention the afikoman, we use a conjugation of the Greek, "Fateirah." In fact, the liturgical use is a sentence saying that we DON'T eat the afikoman at a certain point.

I don't bury my food under a white cloth or eat it in bitterness. Are you new at this whole passover thing?

Sorry, I should have maybe written "Biblical practice". Shortcuts and Sanhedrin are not found in Torah or Tanakh. I sometimes forget how much mishegas we add to the Holy Scriptures the Holy One, blessed be He, King of the Universe, who gave us fruit of the vine and bread from the Earth, you know, like what was taken at the "last seder"...

I don't do any unnatural things to matzo... sometimes it goes tucked in a white cloth, like the body of Messiah, and we let the little kinder find it and give them some gelt (not guilt, you should know). Sometimes in the old country, we give the wife a gown when she finds the hidden matzo...

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

Um, eating maror last time I checked is a Rabbinic commandment too. Maybe tell the goyischa lurkers on this thread what "maror" is so they understand I don't understand the seder after my 45-plus years, not in Talmud, but on the Earth.

And Occam's razor tells me the Greek word afikoman comes from the past when the Messianics and non-Messianics were in the same congregations and did seders together.

 

[RabbiO]

There are many Jewish sinners.
Now I know one more.

Technically, the individual referenced, Joel Chernoff, may be a Jew, but it would be hard to call him Jewish.

Chernoff was raised as a Messianic Jew, i.e. a Christian. His parents were the founders of a messianic congregation.

 

[Tumah]

I hate to argue with a brother, brother, but afikoman is the sole word in our Jewish liturgy and religious practice. Also, I can help you with the Greek cognate for the English under discussion.

I see. So by limiting religious practice to a certain area, you can make sure you get the answer you want.

Christian = follower of Christ

Christ = Messiah

Yes, that's my argument.

I'm a follower of or one who trusts in Messiah. Not Allah, Buddha, the Pope. The Jewish Messiah.

Do me a favor and go through this list of Jewish Messiahs, let me know which one is yours.
Thanks.

So Jewish his mother thought He was perfect and His adoptive father was upset He didn't want to be a doctor. Roses are red, violets are bluish, don't insult our intelligence by pretending Jesus wasn't Jewish.

That's an interesting concept. Degree of Jewishness indicates degree of perfection.

Nope not Jewish.

PS. The Last Supper commemoration is a commemoration of a seder. I appreciate your zeal for Judaism but... you might want to research Messianic belief and practice much more.

Very good, you caught on! Why do you think I mentioned the Last Supper in a discussion about an afikomen?

PPS. Why with our people does it always come down to a remark like "You don't know Judaism"? I know why, because in our great emphasis on learning we have forgotten the emphases of obedience to Torah, not Talmud, and to brotherly love. Messiah Y'Shua--you'll find none smarter. But also, none more loving.

I can tell you why: its because you say things that indicate you don't actually know very much about Judaism.

You keep saying "we" but there is no "we". You're not part of the family. I don't know why you keep saying "we".

 

[Tumah]

Sorry, I should have maybe written "Biblical practice".

Can you clarify what Biblical practice has to do with the Rabbinical enactment of eating the afikomen?

Shortcuts and Sanhedrin are not found in Torah or Tanakh. I sometimes forget how much mishegas we add to the Holy Scriptures the Holy One, blessed be He, King of the Universe, who gave us fruit of the vine and bread from the Earth, you know, like what was taken at the "last seder"...

Neither are afikomen or Passover seders of any type (including last seders).
Are you sure you want to go that way?

I don't do any unnatural things to matzo... sometimes it goes tucked in a white cloth, like the body of Messiah, and we let the little kinder find it and give them some gelt (not guilt, you should know). Sometimes in the old country, we give the wife a gown when she finds the hidden matzo...

So because you knew someone who did that, you were able to create a metaphor for your mishegas? OK. But you'll understand if Jews won't buy into something so flimsy then right...?

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

She sells she sells at the she shore.
.
.
Doh!

Um, eating maror last time I checked is a Rabbinic commandment too. Maybe tell the goyischa lurkers on this thread what "maror" is so they understand I don't understand the seder after my 45-plus years, not in Talmud, but on the Earth.

Yes, there is marror. But that has nothing to do with the afikomen at all. So its unclear why you are bringing it up altogether.

And Occam's razor tells me the Greek word afikoman comes from the past when the Messianics and non-Messianics were in the same congregations and did seders together.

I don't think Occam is going to appreciate how you're using his razor.

 

[rosends]

Sorry, I should have maybe written "Biblical practice". Shortcuts and Sanhedrin are not found in Torah or Tanakh.

Where in the tanach is "afikoman" found?

I don't do any unnatural things to matzo... sometimes it goes tucked in a white cloth, like the body of Messiah, and we let the little kinder find it and give them some gelt (not guilt, you should know). Sometimes in the old country, we give the wife a gown when she finds the hidden matzo...

Wow -- so you take talmudic ideas and then bastardize them? That's fabulous.

Um, eating maror last time I checked is a Rabbinic commandment too.

You must be talking to someone else. I hadn't mentioned maror. You said "then go around our dining table each breaking off a piece and eating it with bitterness," and no one -- NO ONE eats the afikoman with bitterness.
So, regardless of your supposed 45 years of anything, you have no idea what you are talking about.

And Occam's razor tells me the Greek word afikoman comes from the past when the Messianics and non-Messianics were in the same congregations and did seders together.

You can use whatever method you want to justify your ignorance. The talmudic quote you seem to like is not one which supports your case.
By the way, I noticed that you also wrote, " Look at matzoh and tell me it doesn't have holes in it in striped patterns."
I tried that...you see striped patterns? Get your eyes checked.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5225/5638971034_6a484e92bd_b.jpg>

 

[RabbiO]

I've never pierced or striped my afikomen.....

What our friend does not seem to realize is that without little holes matzah - as well most leavened crackers I can think of, although the holes are harder to see with leavened products - would have air bubbles that in the extreme heat of baking would explode, leaving shattered pieces of matzah clinging to the sides of the oven.

 

[Tumah]

My argument is you don't understand my argument, not that I'm wanting to insult your intelligence. You are very sharp. Look at matzoh and tell me it doesn't have holes in it in striped patterns. Are you baking your own or what? Tell me we don't eat matzoh at the same meal with bitter herbs at a seder? Such foolishness, even.

I can't even tell if you're being serious.
The lines of holes is a modern invention. Along with crunchy matza. Just a few hundred years ago matzah was soft. It looked like like laffa bread. It had no holes or striped pattern. Yemenites and some other Sephardim still eat it that way.
I'm sure you knew that in your 45 year in Olam Hazeh.

I'm glad you're excited about the heritage of the Sanhedrin and assorted shortcuts. Just don't cut across the Mount on the Shabbat, not so good in Greek or English.

...whatever.

I'm excited about the Paschal Lamb given for the sin of world. I'm excited about Moses leading our people out of Egypt. In Y'shua's day, there were religiously zealous men who were also excited about tradition. I'm excited about the Word of G_d. Look, even the middle letter of the three is hidden from us. Hmmm.

You mean Paschal Goat. Since goats could also be used in the Passover sacrifice.

Three in One and One in Three, how errant was Maimonides? Rambam said it, so it must be true. We even wear our kippahs too. But never would do so in an ancient shul! Rebbe Shaul said keep hair uncovered, too. Save the coverings (and wigs) for the women, Jews!

Maimonides quotes Talmudic passages that anyone can read for themselves.
Paul writes a story that no one can validate.

Who to trust...?

I'm not trying to be pushy, here. And I should let you folks have the last word on this subject. But for G_d's sake, let us return in purity of spirit and worship at Him who made Rambam and not Rambam's doctrines. Which is better, the book or the commentary on the book! (It is the book... I bet we can find a ruling on this...)

Spoken just like a real Christian!

And G_d love me and Ha Shem love you, you actually called me a goy?! I was circumcised on the eighth day of my life in this present world, the Olam Hazeh if you will, in my home, not a hospital. So much blood, there was. Oy!

Being circumcised and liberally sprinkling your English with Yiddish does not make you a Jew.
If your parents were also Christian Jews, then there's a good chance you'd have to be re-circumcised were you to ever repent.
Unless, you're a woman, calling a man "G-d" makes you for all practical purposes, a non-Jew. Let's see if you do that...

"What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Messiah Y'shua my Adonai, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Messiah..."

That didn't take long!