Adam = all Men's nature becomes sinful; Jesus =/= all Men become sinless?

[Heathen Hammer]

So all you have is a passage that you admit is figurative.

What you ought to have done is apologised and got the thread closed.

If the assault on Christianity has to be launched from a base of fundamentalism and misrepresentation, it must be a winner.

I note your pretend victory; denied. However it's couched, I have shown it's there. Which you questioned. Deal with it and answer the question if you can; if not, bow out.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Christ Jesus is the fallen Adam & who was raised from the dead for obeying finally what God has commanded. Who says Catholics do not believe in reincarnation?

Non sequitur. Please read what I wrote and respond to that.

 

[Villager]

I note your pretend victory; denied.

It's your own concession. Your own white flag, in your own words. There is no going back.

 

[krsnaraja]

Non sequitur. Please read what I wrote and respond to that.

Okay you win my friend if you make the Bible as your reference. In the Hindu scriptures however it`s not Adam but Manu-the father of mankind. Adam & Eve does not exist. The word Woman was taken from the word Manu (with womb). The word Human came from the word Uman.( Uma is the wife of Lord Siva.)

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Don't go there. Look at the concept and draw rational conclusions.

Right, let's ignore Scripture in our quest to understand Scripture. In which case Adam was Chinese you know.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans.

Let's start here. Can you back this up with Scripture?

Genesis 3 from 16-and beyond

Alrighty then. Now which verse or verses, specifically says that "Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans?" The only thing I see is that we're all going to die. Is that what you mean?

 

[Quiddity]

Alrighty then. Now which verse or verses, specifically says that "Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans?" The only thing I see is that we're all going to die. Is that what you mean?

Just out of curiousity, (and because I can't remember the last time I've ever dialogued with you) do you believe Adam's action changed the entire human race?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Just out of curiousity, (and because I can't remember the last time I've ever dialogued with you) do you believe Adam's action changed the entire human race?

My reading of Scripture shows that Adam brought death upon all mankind. Although I could argue (a bit speciously) that Adam was destined to die, bodily when God reforms the universe.

 

[Quiddity]

My reading of Scripture shows that Adam brought death upon all mankind. Although I could argue (a bit speciously) that Adam was destined to die, bodily when God reforms the universe.

And where does sin play into this in your mind?

 

[Villager]

My reading of Scripture shows that Adam brought death upon all mankind.

Fundamentalism rules, eh.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Fundamentalism rules, eh.

I am, after all, a Narrow-minded Biblist.

 

[Villager]

I am, after all, a Narrow-minded Biblist.

Just be a Biblist, then.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Just be a Biblist, then.

No way, man. Narrow-mindedness has it's rewards.

 

[Villager]

No way, man. Narrow-mindedness has it's rewards.

Perhaps.

 

[Pegg]

And why is that? Because it certainly was possible for God to change us TO sin the first time? Mankind cannot learn perfect obedience, so this is an impossible requirement that dooms us, and God knows it. Perfection does not exist.

God proved without any doubt that mankind can maintain perfect obedience when he is in his perfect state... Jesus was the proof of that.

People 'choose; to disobey because we are burdened with another's sin. As I said, this is not voluntary. Thus the only justice possible is to have the involuntary sin removed by God's choice.
This was, after all, God's design mistake, which he knew he could not fix, if your statements are true.

Well you are quite right. And for that very reason God did not charge any of Adams descendants with sin before the mosaic law...yet people were still dying, Why? Paul explains:

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For until the Law (mosaic law) sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. (God did not condemn the sins of man before the mosaic law was given) 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam

Its not Adams sin we are being punished for... we have not sinned "after the likeness of Adam" and God knows that....nevertheless, we are born with a defect that kills us and that is what God will remove from us via Jesus.

That still does not answer the question. Why must we CHOOSE to fix a sin we did not CHOOSE to inherit?

because our inherited imperfection has caused us to sin in our own ways. So we have become sinners by default. But God can rectify this. Paul shows how “For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 5:17)
By Adams trespass death began to reign over all who are out of Adam...all of his offspring. And in the same way, all who choose to be out of Jesus (through faith in Jesus) will have 'life' rule over them because Jesus maintained perfect obedience and God granted him eternal life.

 

[Quiddity]

*bump*
To Sandy:

And where does sin play into this in your mind?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

It's your own concession. Your own white flag, in your own words. There is no going back.

Nithling please, it's the exact opposite. But I guess Orwellspeak is all you have? The concept wasn't allegorical to Paul, of all people, omg!

lol are you in grade school with the 'no backsies' stuff?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Alrighty then. Now which verse or verses, specifically says that "Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans?" The only thing I see is that we're all going to die. Is that what you mean?

Yes, absolutely, that as well as possessing the knowledge of Good and Evil also dooming his descendants in a way which he did not, himself, possess at his creation; therefore his very nature was changed.

Now that we have determined this... your thoughts on the matter at hand?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Just out of curiousity, (and because I can't remember the last time I've ever dialogued with you) do you believe Adam's action changed the entire human race?

Yes, as I just posted to the person above. Why do you ask?

My reading of Scripture shows that Adam brought death upon all mankind. Although I could argue (a bit speciously) that Adam was destined to die, bodily when God reforms the universe.

Oh, you could argue that definitively. As I have said elsewhere here, the presence of the Tree of Life in the Garden shows this without question [for those who understand the implications, at least]. God stating they were doomed simply because of eating the ToKoG/E's fruit, was not precisely truthful.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

God proved without any doubt that mankind can maintain perfect obedience when he is in his perfect state... Jesus was the proof of that.

Quite right. And, since it is possible for one, why not return that gift to all? Why force us to witness the example, as unworthy onlookers? It's rather callous.

Well you are quite right. And for that very reason God did not charge any of Adams descendants with sin before the mosaic law...yet people were still dying, Why? Paul explains:

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For until the Law (mosaic law) sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. (God did not condemn the sins of man before the mosaic law was given) 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam

Paul's explanation isn't a very good one. If we are receiving the penalty [death], then we are still being charged for the sin. And, the fact that we CAN SIN, is really the issue. We should not be able to.

Its not Adams sin we are being punished for... we have not sinned "after the likeness of Adam" and God knows that....nevertheless, we are born with a defect that kills us and that is what God will remove from us via Jesus.

Jesus did not. That is the point you are missing completely.
We die. You will die. All men die, for real, Jesus removed nothing.

A number of you keep repeating this bit of dogma as if it's true. It isn't.

because our inherited imperfection has caused us to sin in our own ways. So we have become sinners by default. But God can rectify this. Paul shows how “For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 5:17)
By Adams trespass death began to reign over all who are out of Adam...all of his offspring. And in the same way, all who choose to be out of Jesus (through faith in Jesus) will have 'life' rule over them because Jesus maintained perfect obedience and God granted him eternal life.

God CAN rectify it, when it counts - now, in THIS LIFE, when it matters TO US, whom he claims to love so much He always seems to put his own wants ahead of the ones he loves. CAN rectify it, but DID NOT.

Please explain why that is. None of you have been able to so far.