Adam and Eve Equal Partners

[Pegg]

4)God has never taught that men should have dominion over their wives, nor that wives should have dominion over their husbands. Those are Satan's carnal teachings.

i think you've taken what i said completely the wrong way.

I said it was a 'consequence' of sin that man would come to dominate (rule) over his wife.

It only became that way after the man sinned....just as painful childbirth did. A woman has a natural desire to have a baby...pain in pregnancy is not supposed to be part of the process. It is a consequence of bearing children with an imperfect body...its not a punishment to the women.

 

[Pegg]

Now I have heard of prophetesses, but I have never heard of a Deaconess, enlighten me, what reference speaks of a Deaconess?

Romans 16:1  I recommend to YOU Phoe′be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cen′chre·ae, 2 that YOU may welcome her in [the] Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones, and that YOU may assist her in any matter where she may need YOU, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, yes, of me myself.

women were ministers just as the men were ... but they didnt take on the leadership role that a man did. They worked as ministers under the direction of the men in the congregations.

 

[Ingledsva]

Now I have heard of prophetesses, but I have never heard of a Deaconess, enlighten me, what reference speaks of a Deaconess?

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a Diakonos of the church which is at Cenchrea:

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Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

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Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;


Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.


Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

She "departed NOT from the Jerusalem TEMPLE" AND "SHE spoke about the Lord to ALL whom looked for redemption in Jerusalem!


A FEMALE PREACHER and PROPHETESS preaching from "THE" TEMPLE!

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And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
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Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
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2Ki 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college ) and they communed with her.
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Neh 6:14 My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear.


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[Flat Earth Kyle]

i think you've taken what i said completely the wrong way.

I said it was a 'consequence' of sin that man would come to dominate (rule) over his wife.

It only became that way after the man sinned....just as painful childbirth did. A woman has a natural desire to have a baby...pain in pregnancy is not supposed to be part of the process. It is a consequence of bearing children with an imperfect body...its not a punishment to the women.

I am saying that God was not commanding men to dominate over the women they were meant to be equal partners with.

Unrighteous dominion is the devil's teaching.

I love Christ's teaching in Matthew 20

25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

If anything man was made to serve the woman and the woman to serve the man.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a Diakonos of the church which is at Cenchrea:

*

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

*
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;


Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.


Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

She "departed NOT from the Jerusalem TEMPLE" AND "SHE spoke about the Lord to ALL whom looked for redemption in Jerusalem!


A FEMALE PREACHER and PROPHETESS preaching from "THE" TEMPLE!

*

And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
*

Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
*

2Ki 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college ) and they communed with her.
*

Neh 6:14 My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear.


*

I suppose it depends on which translation and manuscript you go by.
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Parallel Translations:
New International Version (©2011)
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.
New Living Translation (©2007)
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deacon in the church in Cenchrea.

English Standard Version (©2001)
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchreae.

International Standard Version (©2012)
Now I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess in the church at Cenchrea.

NET Bible (©2006)
Now I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
I entrust Phoebe our sister to you, who is a Servant of the church of Qenkraus,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
With this letter I'm introducing Phoebe to you. She is our sister in the Christian faith and a deacon of the church in the city of Cenchrea.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

American King James Version
I commend to you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

American Standard Version
I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church that is at Cenchreae:

Douay-Rheims Bible
AND I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae:

Darby Bible Translation
But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea;

English Revised Version
I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church that is at Cenchreae:

Webster's Bible Translation
I commend to you Phebe our sister, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Weymouth New Testament
Herewith I introduce our sister Phoebe to you, who is a servant of the Church at Cenchreae,

World English Bible
I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is a servant of the assembly that is at Cenchreae,

Young's Literal Translation
And I commend you to Phebe our sister -- being a ministrant of the assembly that is in Cenchrea --

 

[Me Myself]

Is God talking about punishment, or is he talking about consequences?

Oh! So you believe that before the fall the man was to rule over woman and then after the fall he decided they ruled equally?

Cause sure, then there may be consistency in your argument.

 

[Pegg]

I am saying that God was not commanding men to dominate over the women they were meant to be equal partners with.

Unrighteous dominion is the devil's teaching.

yeah, and isnt that exactly what i said?

eve was not being ruled over until sin entered the picture.... God told eve that as a consequence of sin, her husband would dominate/rule her.

Its as the Geneva bible (the bible before the KJV) states:

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly increase thy [a]sorrows, and thy conceptions. In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thy desire shall be subject to thine husband, and he shall (A)rule over thee.

I love Christ's teaching in Matthew 20


If anything man was made to serve the woman and the woman to serve the man.

how come you dont mind the word 'dominion' in this verse, but you have an issue with it in the genesis verse?

5 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

 

[Ingledsva]

I suppose it depends on which translation and manuscript you go by.
"

No it doesn't. It says - Phebe our sister, which is a Diakonos.

Συνιστώ δε εις εσάς Φοίβην την αδελφήν ημών, ήτις είναι διάκονος της εκκλησίας της εν Κεγχρεαίς,

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[Flat Earth Kyle]

Oh! So you believe that before the fall the man was to rule over woman and then after the fall he decided they ruled equally?

Cause sure, then there may be consistency in your argument.

No, The Lord intended that the woman be a helpmeet for man (meet means equal).

"16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule [with] thee."

Take careful note of the semi colon, it separates two different statements and joins them into one sentence.
Statement 1: (Consequence) I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children
Statement 2: and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule [with] thee.
Statement 1, having children will be difficult for you, statment 2, but you will still desire to have children and your husband will help support you.

 

[Me Myself]

No, The Lord intended that the woman be a helpmeet for man (meet means equal).

"16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule [with] thee."

Take careful note of the semi colon, it separates two different statements and joins them into one sentence.
Statement 1: (Consequence) I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children
Statement 2: and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule [with] thee.
Statement 1, having children will be difficult for you, statment 2, but you will still desire to have children and your husband will help support you.

That makes no sense. He is describing punishment everywhere except in the part where he says she will have a loving relationship witth her husband.

So the most logic understanding is that that trasnlation is not a good one, because it makes no sense with the story and the sentence.

Everything that God describes must be new or be relevant to something new. Why say she will desire her husband and rule with m if they were already doing that? Bth already ruled over Eden, second only to God, so why say that when that was known?

If he wanted to reassure them this didnt change the sentence would read something like "but I will STILL let you rule one at the side of the other, over the whole creation. This I wont take from you" but it doesnt.

He is describing the woman's punishment, ruling at the side of your husband in a loving relationship of equals is a blessing not a punishment.

Notice that it is meant to say " you will desire what makes you miserable ( both men and children) " that is the punishment, that interpretation makes sense given the story.

Your interpretation doesnt.

 

[Ingledsva]

No, The Lord intended that the woman be a helpmeet for man (meet means equal).

"16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule [with] thee."

Take careful note of the semi colon, it separates two different statements and joins them into one sentence.
Statement 1: (Consequence) I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children
Statement 2: and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule [with] thee.
Statement 1, having children will be difficult for you, statment 2, but you will still desire to have children and your husband will help support you.

I posted this to you below.

Interesting. Those last couple words usually translated as "he shall rule over," can be read as, "and he also with shall bear." Then it lists his punishment.

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[Flat Earth Kyle]

yeah, and isnt that exactly what i said?

eve was not being ruled over until sin entered the picture.... God told eve that as a consequence of sin, her husband would dominate/rule her.

Its as the Geneva bible (the bible before the KJV) states:

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly increase thy [a]sorrows, and thy conceptions. In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thy desire shall be subject to thine husband, and he shall (A)rule over thee.



how come you dont mind the word 'dominion' in this verse, but you have an issue with it in the genesis verse?

5 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

Sorry, I guess I am just used to people claiming that Genesis 3:16 was saying it was God's will for man to have dominion over woman.

In Matthew Chapter 20 it states:
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Christ was teaching his disciples not to exercise dominion over each other, differentiating the way of the world and the way of God.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

It is 3 A.M. over here, so don't give me too much grief about me not realizing the two of you were agreeing with me.

 

[Pegg]

It is 3 A.M. over here, so don't give me too much grief about me not realizing the two of you were agreeing with me.

aww thats alright yaddo ... now go to bed!

 

[Muffled]

Since it is written that men are supposed to treat their wives the same as they treat their own bodies, I don't think men are supposed to rule over women.

I believe it is a sad man who lets his body rule him.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I believe it is a sad man who lets his body rule him.

I believe it is sad when anybody is forced to be personally ruled over, man or woman.

 

[Muffled]

“Genesis 3:16 states that Adam is to ‘rule over’ Eve, but this doesn’t make Adam a dictator. … Over in ‘rule over’ uses the Hebrew bet, which means ruling ‘with,’ not ruling ‘over.’ … The concept of interdependent, equal partners is well-grounded in the doctrine of the restored gospel. Eve was Adam’s ‘help meet’ (Genesis 2:18). The original Hebrew for meet means that Eve was adequate for, or equal to, Adam. She wasn’t his servant or his subordinate.”

In the plan of happiness, man and woman play equally powerful and equally important roles. For the plan to work, each must hearken to the other. Before God, they stand as equals.

~Ensign, April 2013, Equal Partnership in Marriage

Often there is more than one meaning to a Hebrew word, so my guess is that someone chose the meaning that he liked. Biblical scolars have chosen the translation "rule over" and I would agree that it fits the context better.

I beleive this is true and in God even more so but even God who is one sets up an authority path from Father to Son. To ignore the authority paths God sets up is to be in rebellion against God.

This is probably a Mormon myth. I once ceded my authority to my wife and as a result also my responsibility. There is no responsibility where there is no authority. Strangely enough my wife thought that I would simply follow her lead. That didn't happen; she found out to her own chagrin.

 

[Ingledsva]

Often there is more than one meaning to a Hebrew word, so my guess is that someone chose the meaning that he liked. Biblical scolars have chosen the translation "rule over" and I would agree that it fits the context better.

...

Actually the ending words do not have to be translated "he rule".

It can be translated - "and the same/also he bears."

This also makes sense as the text concerns their actions and what consequences they will "bear." It immediately follows with more consequences.

 

[Avoice]

“Genesis 3:16 states that Adam is to ‘rule over’ Eve, but this doesn’t make Adam a dictator. … Over in ‘rule over’ uses the Hebrew bet, which means ruling ‘with,’ not ruling ‘over.’ … The concept of interdependent, equal partners is well-grounded in the doctrine of the restored gospel. Eve was Adam’s ‘help meet’ (Genesis 2:18). The original Hebrew for meet means that Eve was adequate for, or equal to, Adam. She wasn’t his servant or his subordinate.”

In the plan of happiness, man and woman play equally powerful and equally important roles. For the plan to work, each must hearken to the other. Before God, they stand as equals.

~Ensign, April 2013, Equal Partnership in Marriage

Fantastic. And amazing to me that I read the old KJV to mean what you have posted here. This is true at creation. It changes at the Fall and expulsion from the Garden when woman is made subject to man. Though I think such was carried to far when women could be bought and sold. Moses Read the Law to all including women and children as God had planned.

 

[Ingledsva]

Fantastic. And amazing to me that I read the old KJV to mean what you have posted here. This is true at creation. It changes at the Fall and expulsion from the Garden when woman is made subject to man. Though I think such was carried to far when women could be bought and sold. Moses Read the Law to all including women and children as God had planned.

Personally I don't think it says that - but - even if it did say he would rule over her - how can males take that to mean all women are to be lorded over by males? It was concerning Adam and Chavvah - no one else.