Adam & Eve And Evolution

[Badran]

This is mostly an educational thread, which is why i didn't put it in the Evolution Vs. Creationism forum. Basically i'm pretty ignorant regarding evolution, but understand some very little basic ideas, and generally accept it, based on that limited understanding (as i have no reason or ground based upon which i would choose to not accept it, or treat it any differently).

My question here is regarding the idea which i've seen proposed as a fact in many threads, regarding evolution negating the possibility for the Adam and Eve story. The reason i'm wording it that way ("proposed as a fact") is that i haven't actually yet read or seen the basis or justification behind it. So what i'm trying to know here, is the basis for that statement, whether or not its really a fact, and whether or not any aspect of the issue is debatable. Feel free to post relevant links, explain in your own words or a combination of both. The one thing i would ask to put in mind is what i said above, that i'm pretty ignorant about the issue, so i guess put that in mind please while explaining or sharing links.

Finally, please also take care that i'm not addressing the story from one particular theology, but as a general idea (since it varies a little bit between the religious scriptures that contain the story). I'm also not addressing it based on simplistic ideas such as god 'just putting them here on earth' or things along those lines. I'm essentially asking what is the other supposed scenario that negates the one where its two people in the beginning. IOW, i'm not trying to see whether or not the literal understanding of a certain scripture can work, as much as i'm curious about the alternate scenario, and in what way it supposedly negates one along the lines of Adam and Eve.

Thanks in advance.

 

[wubs23]

Well, there are several reasons..

1. humans and apes share a common ancestor.
2. there would have to be generations of incest if there were only 2 people in the beginning.
3. when they got kicked out of paradise there were people; where did they come from

Now, in fact the study of genetics did show that we all come from 2 people.
1 man, and 1 woman.

however, these people lived thousands of years apart.

I suggest you read some papers about genetics. Explaining evolution and genetics will take long, but even a basic understanding should answer your questions for you.
Any video or article will do.

Maybe this is a good place to start:
Learn.Genetics™

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Y-chromosomal Adam=Noah and mitochondrial Eve=Eve?

Is it possible? I am quite ignorant in these areas and if it isn't possible then I would like to know the scientific reasons why.

 

[Caladan]

Hi Badran,

I think you should consider the following: evolution and scripture are two different areas, and in any biology department or any class about evolution (serious academic class anyway), the Biblical story of Adam and Eve is not even part of the material.
Theology is one thing, and biology is another. I think considering that is a good beginning, because it will help you separate two different fields that have been badly mixed in the past.

 

[wubs23]

Y-chromosomal Adam=Noah and mitochondrial Eve=Eve?

Is it possible? I am quite ignorant in these areas and if it isn't possible then I would like to know the scientific reasons why.

No, because as I said, they lived thousands of years apart.

 

[idav]

I don't think evolution negates the adam and eve story because there were always other humans in the world as is in the bible. The one thing the bible would have gotten wrong is there ever being point that all life and or humans were wiped out. Cain and Seth ran into other humans as did Noah's family after the flood. If anything the story is a beginning of a chosen people. There was already a difference at the point of the story between humans and most other animals.

 

[shawn001]

I don't think evolution negates the adam and eve story because there were always other humans in the world as is in the bible. The one thing the bible would have gotten wrong is there ever being point that all life and or humans were wiped out. Cain and Seth ran into other humans as did Noah's family after the flood. If anything the story is a beginning of a chosen people. There was already a difference at the point of the story between humans and most other animals.

"I don't think evolution negates the adam and eve story because there were always other humans in the world as is in the bible."

Humans in the bible before adam?

There were hesitant to use the term "eve"or Adam, because of the bible reference.

Mitochondrial Eve

Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Y-chromosomal Adam

Y-chromosomal Adam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You should read a couple things here.

Evolution Resources from the National Academies


The genome #2 that fused between us and the great apes.

"The phases through which chromosomes replicate, divide, shuffle, and recombine are imperfect, as DNA is subject to random mutations. Mutations do not always produce harmful outcomes. In fact, many mutations are thought to be neutral, and some even give rise to beneficial traits. To corroborate Darwin's theory, scientists would need to find a valid explanation for why a chromosome pair is missing in humans that is present in apes."

[youtube]8FGYzZOZxMw[/youtube]
Ken Miller Human Chromosome 2 Genome - YouTube


The below site is state of the art on human evolution.


Human Origins program and the Smithsonian Museam

Human Evolution by The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program

 

[Sunstone]

When I was a kid, a deacon of my town's Presbyterian Church told me one day that he figured both evolution and the story of Adam and Eve were more or less true. The way he reconciled the two was to suppose that Adam and Eve were the very first of our species to be given souls. That, in a way, made them the first people.

 

[Caladan]

When I was a kid, a deacon of my town's Presbyterian Church told me one day that he figured both evolution and the story of Adam and Eve were more or less true. The way he reconciled the two was to suppose that Adam and Eve were the very first of our species to be given souls. That, in a way, made them the first people.

I just wish that people will recognize biological evolution and scripture as two different fields instead of creating these bizzare hybrids.
recognizing the sicentific model of evolution doesn't mean throwing our scriptures out the window, it means that its long overdue for us to recognize the two fields in their own right.

 

[shawn001]

When I was a kid, a deacon of my town's Presbyterian Church told me one day that he figured both evolution and the story of Adam and Eve were more or less true. The way he reconciled the two was to suppose that Adam and Eve were the very first of our species to be given souls. That, in a way, made them the first people.

"The way he reconciled the two was to suppose that Adam and Eve were the very first of our species to be given souls."

except it didn't work that way. There is also lilith?

At one time not to long ago there were more then one speicies of humans on the planet at the same time.

 

[outhouse]

first STOP with the theology regarding human origins. We dont even need evolution for this debate.

FACTS are that man [homo sapiens] have been here for 200,000 years, with or without evolution.

FACTS are that Israel as a people and a nation really only go back to a little over 3200 years ago, when the Canaanite city state structure broke down at the end of the late bronze age.

FACTS are Mesopotamians had a simular legend as where Adamu was the first man, except there legend goes back over a thousand years before Israeli's [ancient hebrews] existed. Some of these semetic speaking Mesopotamian's migrated to Israel with these stories as their governement broke down at the same time as the Canaanite governement.

FACTS the creation myth was written in the 5th and 6th century and was never a early part of ancient hebrews history, this was a later creation



WE only need the first example I gave to put the creation myth of adam and eve to bed. the rest just put nails in its coffin, and the last tamp's the dirt tightly over the grave

 

[idav]

Humans in the bible before adam?

Yes, and after, according to the story in the bible.

 

[Badran]

Hi Badran,

I think you should consider the following: evolution and scripture are two different areas, and in any biology department or any class about evolution (serious academic class anyway), the Biblical story of Adam and Eve is not even part of the material.
Theology is one thing, and biology is another. I think considering that is a good beginning, because it will help you separate two different fields that have been badly mixed in the past.

Hi Caladan,

I agree that they're two separate fields. I made this thread however for two reasons:

1) That like i said, some people do make the claim i mentioned, which is why i was interested in seeing whats the reasoning, or facts supporting it, if there are any.

2)While they are two separate fields, i think its still possible to debate and discuss issues regarding the two in some regards. Since some of these claims in theology might have to do with things that biology has the say in. I don't think discussing them in the way i'm attempting to fails to recognize that they are two different fields.

I tried (but it didn't work) to make it clear for that specific reason, that i'm not talking about any specific scripture, or the idea through any specific theology, but rather in general. The idea of us tracing to two human beings. I'm attempting as much as possible to make the discussion go in the way of addressing a general idea, rather than some specific theology.

Like i said in the OP, in other words, you can look at it as me trying to understand the scenario we know through biology in this regard, and how it would handle a proposition along the lines of Adam and Eve, in general.

 

[Badran]

Well, there are several reasons..

1. humans and apes share a common ancestor.
2. there would have to be generations of incest if there were only 2 people in the beginning.

Why are these two points considered a problem?

I understand the implications of the second one (but not entirely sure), the first one however completely goes over my head, in that i don't see why its a problem.

3. when they got kicked out of paradise there were people; where did they come from

Now, in fact the study of genetics did show that we all come from 2 people.
1 man, and 1 woman.

however, these people lived thousands of years apart.

I suggest you read some papers about genetics. Explaining evolution and genetics will take long, but even a basic understanding should answer your questions for you.
Any video or article will do.

Maybe this is a good place to start:
Learn.Genetics™

Thanks a lot for sharing. I will start by reading your link.

 

[outhouse]

but rather in general. The idea of us tracing to two human beings

that in itself is a impossibility

 

[Badran]

first STOP with the theology regarding human origins. We dont even need evolution for this debate.

We do need evolution for this debate, because as i said in the OP, if you bothered to read it, that is specifically what i'm talking about. I'm not trying to see whether or not a literal interpretation of any given scripture can work (like i said, again, in the OP), but i'm addressing the idea of us tracing to two people in general, and what does biology have to say on the issue.

And like i tried to emphasize, this is not as much of a debate as it is an educational thread. So the sooner you drop the "Evolutionists Vs. Creationists" attitude, the better. Since it doesn't apply here. This is not what this discussion is about neither am i a creationist in the first place (not one that opposes evolution, i mean).

FACTS are that man [homo sapiens] have been here for 200,000 years, with or without evolution.

Not sure what is this in response to.

FACTS are that Israel as a people and a nation really only go back to a little over 3200 years ago, when the Canaanite city state structure broke down at the end of the late bronze age.

FACTS are Mesopotamians had a simular legend as where Adamu was the first man, except there legend goes back over a thousand years before Israeli's [ancient hebrews] existed. Some of these semetic speaking Mesopotamian's migrated to Israel with these stories as their governement broke down at the same time as the Canaanite governement.

FACTS the creation myth was written in the 5th and 6th century and was never a early part of ancient hebrews history, this was a later creation

None of which, assuming they were true, has anything to do with this discussion, or its purpose.

WE only need the first example I gave to put the creation myth of adam and eve to bed. the rest just put nails in its coffin, and the last tamp's the dirt tightly over the grave

I'm assuming it must be clear at this point, but just in case, like i said, in this thread, as indicated by the OP and the thread title, i'm looking for what evolution has to say about the issue.

 

[Badran]

that in itself is a impossibility

Okay, if you feel like it, please share on why it is supposedly so, as thats what i'm looking for.

 

[Copernicus]

Badran, you are asking us to explain the reasoning of a group of unnamed people who have argued that evolution disproved the story of Adam and Eve. It is hard to say why they raised that particular issue, not being familiar with the context in which they raised the argument.

If I were to argue against that story, bringing up evolution would be way down the list of my objections to it. It is an internally inconsistent story, as others have pointed out. That is, it does not explain how Adam's progeny were able to find other people to mate with. It appears to combine elements of an older Semitic folktale epic, the Gilgamesh myth, into a newer myth. And the story of God's behavior and reasoning just doesn't make any sense, given his perfect foreknowledge of what Adam and Eve would have done under the circumstances that he supposedly created. You have to get past all of that before it makes sense to even raise the question of whether the story fits in with evolution.

My guess is that some people may think evolution relevant to the discussion, because it provides a more credible alternative theory to the origin of the human race. The Adam and Eve just-so story claims that those two individuals were directly created by God. They had no parents, so it makes no sense that they had a common ancestor with apes, let alone other animals. The theory of evolution claims that humans had a common ancestor with apes and other animals. Indeed, it provides an explanation of how the common descent of all living things on the planet came about.

Does evolution disprove the story of Adam and Eve? It does not rule out the logical possibility. God could have created all living things all at once with DNA that made it appear that they all had common ancestry. He could have seeded the Earth with layers of sediment containing fake fossil remains that made it appear that there had been hundreds of millions of years of evolutionary development in living species. Is that logical possibility plausible? No.

 

[outhouse]

Okay, if you feel like it, please share on why it is supposedly so, as thats what i'm looking for.

it is impossible for a single pair to sustain a breeding population


Adam and Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In terms of human genetics, the concept that all humans descended from two historical persons is impossible.[18] Genetic evidence indicates humans descended from a group of at least 10,000 people due to the amount of human genetic variation.[18] If all humans descended from two individuals several thousand years ago, as Young Earth creationism supposes, it would require an impossibly high mutation rate to account for the observed variation.[18] This has caused some religious practitioners to move away from a literal interpretation and belief in the Adam and Eve creation myth.[18] Other literalists continue to believe in what they see as a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith.[18]

 

[outhouse]

None of which, assuming they were true, has anything to do with this discussion, or its purpose.

but you asked this

I'm essentially asking what is the other supposed scenario that negates the one where its two people in the beginning.

so my statements all apply as they do negate the creation myth's by showing the problems of trying to shove mythology into reality, which is what a literal interpretation of adam and eve does