Adulterating Pure Worship

[Eyes to See]

There have been a number of threads recently on Christmas and its pagan origins. There is plenty of information in secular history, in any Encyclopedia, in the threads on this website even, about the unbiblical practices and pagan traditions that became known as Christmas.

Most Christians from the churches of Christendom these days are not ignorant of the pagan roots of Christmas, but they excuse them away. "It's the thought that counts." "It's a family tradition." "I don't think God cares about the pagan origins," and we go on and on with their excuses to why it is okay to celebrate a pagan holiday dressed as something holy to God.

So reasoning from the scriptures, getting the mind of God on things, what does he really think about mixing pagan rites, traditions, and worship with pure worship?

I was studying some of the requirements of offering a sacrifice pleasing to God under the Mosaic law a couple weeks ago, and reasoning on Jehovah's view of holiness might give us an idea of how he views mixing false religion with pure worship.

For example, in Leviticus 7:11, 12 a person whose heart moved him could offer a communion sacrifice to God.

This sacrifice was not a sacrifice for sins or guilt, but rather of thanksgiving. It meant a person had a good conscious and wanted to offer, voluntarily, a sacrifice of thanksgiving to Jehovah God. The one offering the communion sacrifice ate of it along with his family, 'with' Jehovah. Signifying the peaceful relation they had with him.

But were just any sacrifices pleasing to Jehovah? No! Notice what Jehovah said about anyone offering a communion sacrifice that was unclean:

"But any person who is unclean and eats the flesh of the communion sacrifice, which is for Jehovah, that person must be cut off from his people."-Leviticus 7:20.

A person could not offer a communion sacrifice to Jehovah if they were unclean for any reason. First, they had to give a sin or guilt offering to sanctify themselves before Jehovah, and then they were allowed to eat of the communion meal with Jehovah. If they were to offer the communion sacrifice in an unclean state they were to be put to death.

So while no one is under the law today, that gives us a glimpse of Jehovah's view of being unclean and trying to be at peace with Jehovah. One first must cleanse themselves of all uncleanliness, then they may have a good relation with Jehovah.

So what of the pagan practices that Christendom has adopted. Does God view them as clean and acceptable?

Scripture says, concerning the pagan practices of the nations:

"No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons."-1 Corinthians 10:20, 21.

The rituals and traditions of the pagans that are at the roots of the traditions in Christmas are really things sacrificed to demons. And God says you cannot be partaking of the table of Jehovah and at the same time the table of the demons.

Can one really sit down at the communion table to eat and be at peace with Jehovah God, and at the same time use practices and traditions dedicated to demons?

 

[74x12]

There have been a number of threads recently on Christmas and its pagan origins. There is plenty of information in secular history, in any Encyclopedia, in the threads on this website even, about the unbiblical practices and pagan traditions that became known as Christmas.

Most Christians from the churches of Christendom these days are not ignorant of the pagan roots of Christmas, but they excuse them away. "It's the thought that counts." "It's a family tradition." "I don't think God cares about the pagan origins," and we go on and on with their excuses to why it is okay to celebrate a pagan holiday dressed as something holy to God.

So reasoning from the scriptures, getting the mind of God on things, what does he really think about mixing pagan rites, traditions, and worship with pure worship?

I was studying some of the requirements of offering a sacrifice pleasing to God under the Mosaic law a couple weeks ago, and reasoning on Jehovah's view of holiness might give us an idea of how he views mixing false religion with pure worship.

For example, in Leviticus 7:11, 12 a person whose heart moved him could offer a communion sacrifice to God.

This sacrifice was not a sacrifice for sins or guilt, but rather of thanksgiving. It meant a person had a good conscious and wanted to offer, voluntarily, a sacrifice of thanksgiving to Jehovah God. The one offering the communion sacrifice ate of it along with his family, 'with' Jehovah. Signifying the peaceful relation they had with him.

But were just any sacrifices pleasing to Jehovah? No! Notice what Jehovah said about anyone offering a communion sacrifice that was unclean:

"But any person who is unclean and eats the flesh of the communion sacrifice, which is for Jehovah, that person must be cut off from his people."-Leviticus 7:20.

A person could not offer a communion sacrifice to Jehovah if they were unclean for any reason. First, they had to give a sin or guilt offering to sanctify themselves before Jehovah, and then they were allowed to eat of the communion meal with Jehovah. If they were to offer the communion sacrifice in an unclean state they were to be put to death.

So while no one is under the law today, that gives us a glimpse of Jehovah's view of being unclean and trying to be at peace with Jehovah. One first must cleanse themselves of all uncleanliness, then they may have a good relation with Jehovah.

So what of the pagan practices that Christendom has adopted. Does God view them as clean and acceptable?

Scripture says, concerning the pagan practices of the nations:

"No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons."-1 Corinthians 10:20, 21.

The rituals and traditions of the pagans that are at the roots of the traditions in Christmas are really things sacrificed to demons. And God says you cannot be partaking of the table of Jehovah and at the same time the table of the demons.

Can one really sit down at the communion table to eat and be at peace with Jehovah God, and at the same time use practices and traditions dedicated to demons?

The design of Solomon's temple was based on a similar design used by pagans to honor Baal and other gods at the time. Solomon even had a master craftsman from Phoenicia help him build the temple.

And it's not different with Moses ... the ark of the covenant is very similar to arks used to honor Egyptian deities.

 

[metis]

Another nonsensical thread that posits "I'm right and all others are into paganism!".

"Physician, heal thyself!" instead of pointing a finger at everyone else, whereas three point right back at you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No one cares about your hateful and idiotic JW propaganda. Let me repeat to you: to many, it's your god who is the "demon".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Now wonder catholics go to confession and ask forgiveness before communion. Many protestants say "come as you are" to receive jesus while the OP is saying one needs to be clean to offer sacrifice. So, that makes sense. I always wondered why they do that. Hmm.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Pretty much. But I ironically learned something new about the Church. Go figure, huh.

Another nonsensical thread that posits "I'm right and all others are into paganism!".

"Physician, heal thyself!" instead of pointing a finger at everyone else, whereas three point right back at you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There have been a number of threads recently on Christmas and its pagan origins. There is plenty of information in secular history, in any Encyclopedia, in the threads on this website even, about the unbiblical practices and pagan traditions that became known as Christmas.

Most Christians from the churches of Christendom these days are not ignorant of the pagan roots of Christmas, but they excuse them away. "It's the thought that counts." "It's a family tradition." "I don't think God cares about the pagan origins," and we go on and on with their excuses to why it is okay to celebrate a pagan holiday dressed as something holy to God.

So reasoning from the scriptures, getting the mind of God on things, what does he really think about mixing pagan rites, traditions, and worship with pure worship?

I was studying some of the requirements of offering a sacrifice pleasing to God under the Mosaic law a couple weeks ago, and reasoning on Jehovah's view of holiness might give us an idea of how he views mixing false religion with pure worship.

For example, in Leviticus 7:11, 12 a person whose heart moved him could offer a communion sacrifice to God.

This sacrifice was not a sacrifice for sins or guilt, but rather of thanksgiving. It meant a person had a good conscious and wanted to offer, voluntarily, a sacrifice of thanksgiving to Jehovah God. The one offering the communion sacrifice ate of it along with his family, 'with' Jehovah. Signifying the peaceful relation they had with him.

But were just any sacrifices pleasing to Jehovah? No! Notice what Jehovah said about anyone offering a communion sacrifice that was unclean:

"But any person who is unclean and eats the flesh of the communion sacrifice, which is for Jehovah, that person must be cut off from his people."-Leviticus 7:20.

A person could not offer a communion sacrifice to Jehovah if they were unclean for any reason. First, they had to give a sin or guilt offering to sanctify themselves before Jehovah, and then they were allowed to eat of the communion meal with Jehovah. If they were to offer the communion sacrifice in an unclean state they were to be put to death.

So while no one is under the law today, that gives us a glimpse of Jehovah's view of being unclean and trying to be at peace with Jehovah. One first must cleanse themselves of all uncleanliness, then they may have a good relation with Jehovah.

So what of the pagan practices that Christendom has adopted. Does God view them as clean and acceptable?

Scripture says, concerning the pagan practices of the nations:

"No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons."-1 Corinthians 10:20, 21.

The rituals and traditions of the pagans that are at the roots of the traditions in Christmas are really things sacrificed to demons. And God says you cannot be partaking of the table of Jehovah and at the same time the table of the demons.

Can one really sit down at the communion table to eat and be at peace with Jehovah God, and at the same time use practices and traditions dedicated to demons?

I think the christian idea is the blood of the lamb (animal) that was given to god for his pardon of their sins in the OT was translated to the Lamb of God where that same "blood" is offered as a sacrifice (Eucharist) for the same reason, to ask pardon for the sins of the Church/body of christ.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Paganoia!

 

[1213]

...The rituals and traditions of the pagans that are at the roots of the traditions in Christmas...

Please tell, what are those traditions? Why they are pagan?

 

[exchemist]

There have been a number of threads recently on Christmas and its pagan origins. There is plenty of information in secular history, in any Encyclopedia, in the threads on this website even, about the unbiblical practices and pagan traditions that became known as Christmas.

Most Christians from the churches of Christendom these days are not ignorant of the pagan roots of Christmas, but they excuse them away. "It's the thought that counts." "It's a family tradition." "I don't think God cares about the pagan origins," and we go on and on with their excuses to why it is okay to celebrate a pagan holiday dressed as something holy to God.

So reasoning from the scriptures, getting the mind of God on things, what does he really think about mixing pagan rites, traditions, and worship with pure worship?

I was studying some of the requirements of offering a sacrifice pleasing to God under the Mosaic law a couple weeks ago, and reasoning on Jehovah's view of holiness might give us an idea of how he views mixing false religion with pure worship.

For example, in Leviticus 7:11, 12 a person whose heart moved him could offer a communion sacrifice to God.

This sacrifice was not a sacrifice for sins or guilt, but rather of thanksgiving. It meant a person had a good conscious and wanted to offer, voluntarily, a sacrifice of thanksgiving to Jehovah God. The one offering the communion sacrifice ate of it along with his family, 'with' Jehovah. Signifying the peaceful relation they had with him.

But were just any sacrifices pleasing to Jehovah? No! Notice what Jehovah said about anyone offering a communion sacrifice that was unclean:

"But any person who is unclean and eats the flesh of the communion sacrifice, which is for Jehovah, that person must be cut off from his people."-Leviticus 7:20.

A person could not offer a communion sacrifice to Jehovah if they were unclean for any reason. First, they had to give a sin or guilt offering to sanctify themselves before Jehovah, and then they were allowed to eat of the communion meal with Jehovah. If they were to offer the communion sacrifice in an unclean state they were to be put to death.

So while no one is under the law today, that gives us a glimpse of Jehovah's view of being unclean and trying to be at peace with Jehovah. One first must cleanse themselves of all uncleanliness, then they may have a good relation with Jehovah.

So what of the pagan practices that Christendom has adopted. Does God view them as clean and acceptable?

Scripture says, concerning the pagan practices of the nations:

"No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons."-1 Corinthians 10:20, 21.

The rituals and traditions of the pagans that are at the roots of the traditions in Christmas are really things sacrificed to demons. And God says you cannot be partaking of the table of Jehovah and at the same time the table of the demons.

Can one really sit down at the communion table to eat and be at peace with Jehovah God, and at the same time use practices and traditions dedicated to demons?

This is an example of the sort of thing that makes so many people despise the Jehovah's Witnesses: sanctimonious, narrow-minded, exclusivist - and a bit silly: nobody has made a sacrifice to a pagan deity at Christmas for over a thousand years.

 

[Eyes to See]

Please tell, what are those traditions? Why they are pagan?

There are several threads about the subject already. But just about everything in Christmas is of pagan origin. The date of December 25th, the giving of gifts, both parts of the festivities of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia.

The nation of Israel over and over incorporated the worship of pagan gods into their worship of Jehovah God and they were severely reprimanded by Jehovah for it.

There are those who are sincere in their desire to please God, and when they discern, by study of the Bible, that a certain practice or custom they formerly had displeases him, they stop it.

If you read in this thread a lot of derisive and scornful comments at the scriptures that show God's attitude toward what is unclean when worshipping him. The same attitude the Israelites showed to the prophets God sent them to tell them to to make their paths straight:

"Stop bringing in any more worthless grain offerings.
Your incense is detestable to me.
New moons, sabbaths, the calling of conventions
—I cannot put up with the use of magical power along with your solemn assembly.
I have hated your new moons and your festivals.
They have become a burden to me;
I am tired of bearing them."
-Isaiah 1:13, 14.


Instead of listening to God they hated his prophets and put them to death, including the greatest of all the prophets, Jesus Christ. No doubt they would do the same thing again today.

But Jehovah tells the sincere-hearted to stop touching the unclean thing and then he will accept them:

“‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’”-2 Corinthians 6:17.

Notice when the people stoned and put to death God's prophets, it was not the prophet they hated. It was Jehovah God and his good word.

That is why Jesus said that people would hate his followers. Not because they do what is wrong. But because they love what is right and clean and share it with others:

"If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours."-John 15:19-20.

 

[blü 2]

The rituals and traditions of the pagans that are at the roots of the traditions in Christmas are really things sacrificed to demons.

What demons, exactly?

And God says you cannot be partaking of the table of Jehovah and at the same time the table of the demons.

I dare say just about all religions express dislike for rival religions and warn their congregations against straying. The Abrahamic religions certainly do.

Can one really sit down at the communion table to eat and be at peace with Jehovah God, and at the same time use practices and traditions dedicated to demons?

If there's a God, and if that God is fair-minded and fond of human decency, then [he] can only be delighted when people gather for a festival that brings families together and expresses goodwill to everyone, regardless of nation, color or creed, no?

After all, assuming there was an historical Jesus at all, we don't know whether he was born in 1 CE or not, let alone the actual month and day of his birth. December 25 was already part of the midwinter festivals when the Christians of Rome chose it, and when they chose it, they were well aware of its pagan origins. There's one chance in 365.25 that it's the correct date, but we'll never know.

 

[Eyes to See]

If there's a God, and if that God is fair-minded and fond of human decency, then [he] can only be delighted when people gather for a festival that brings families together and expresses goodwill to everyone, regardless of nation, color or creed, no?

Well what did Jehovah think when the Israelites gathered together for festivities in the past that had been tainted with pagan worship? This is what he had Isaiah tell the people:

"Woe to the sinful nation,
The people weighed down with error,
A brood of wicked men, corrupt children!
They have abandoned Jehovah;
They have treated the Holy One of Israel with disrespect;
They have turned their backs on him.
5 Where will you be struck next as you add to your rebellion?
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart is diseased.
6 From the sole of the foot to the head, nothing is healthy.
There are wounds and bruises and open sores
—They have not been treated or bound up or softened with oil.
-Isaiah 1:4-6.

Jehovah is just in all he does. In fact if he wasn't so merciful his justice would have long ago done away with all of this. Just like he told Israel back then:

"Unless Jehovah of armies had left us a few survivors,
We should have become just like Sodʹom,
And we should have resembled Go·morʹrah."
-Isaiah 1:9.

"And when you spread out your palms,
I hide my eyes from you.
Although you offer many prayers,
I am not listening;
Your hands are filled with blood."
-Isaiah 1:15.

 

[Eyes to See]

What demons, exactly?

God does not dignify the demons by recording their names. Not even Satan's name is recorded in the Bible. Did you know that the Bible, although mentioning God by his name Jehovah over 7,000 times, does not mention the names of any angels but two: Gabriel and Michael.

 

[blü 2]

Well what did Jehovah think when the Israelites gathered together for festivities in the past that had been tainted with pagan worship? This is what he had Isaiah tell the people:

"Woe to the sinful nation,
The people weighed down with error,
A brood of wicked men, corrupt children!
They have abandoned Jehovah;
They have treated the Holy One of Israel with disrespect;
They have turned their backs on him.
5 Where will you be struck next as you add to your rebellion?
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart is diseased.
6 From the sole of the foot to the head, nothing is healthy.
There are wounds and bruises and open sores
—They have not been treated or bound up or softened with oil.
-Isaiah 1:4-6.

Jehovah is just in all he does. In fact if he wasn't so merciful his justice would have long ago done away with all of this. Just like he told Israel back then:

"Unless Jehovah of armies had left us a few survivors,
We should have become just like Sodʹom,
And we should have resembled Go·morʹrah."
-Isaiah 1:9.

"And when you spread out your palms,
I hide my eyes from you.
Although you offer many prayers,
I am not listening;
Your hands are filled with blood."
-Isaiah 1:15.

That's the God of the Tanakh, the god of a particular tribe.

In my view, you'd be better off to focus on the God of Paul. Paul, as you know, tore up the covenant of circumcision, and converted many many more pagans than Jewish people.

You appear to be for exclusion when it comes to goodwill. Me, I'm in favor of including all people of goodwill everywhere, and as many of the rest as possible.

Merry Christmas! I mean it!

 

[Eyes to See]

That's the God of the Tanakh, the god of a particular tribe.

In my view, you'd be better off to focus on the God of Paul. Paul, as you know, tore up the covenant of circumcision, and converted many many more pagans than Jewish people.

You appear to be for exclusion when it comes to goodwill. Me, I'm in favor of including all people of goodwill everywhere, and as many of the rest as possible.

Merry Christmas! I mean it!

Thank you. I know most people don't mean anything bad when saying Merry Christmas, and always say thank you when someone does so. I also respect other people and their right to believe and worship as they see fit.

I did not repeat the quotes in the Greek Scriptures from Paul about mixing pagan practices with worship to Jehovah because I quoted them above already (it would be redundant).

When I ask questions like the ones above, it is not to start a fight, or get people angry, or make them think I feel I am above them. Quite the contrary we are all under sin and need salvation. No one is greater than any other, and God loves all humankind. I do it to make people reflect on their relationship with God. That is what Bible reading and meditation on it is for. To reveal to a person what sort of person he is before Jehovah God. For the Bible reveals to us how God views us, it is a mirror, and it is alive and exerts power and its word pierces to the marrow and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[blü 2]

God does not dignify the demons by recording their names. Not even Satan's name is recorded in the Bible.

As you know, 'Satan' is Hebrew for 'Adversary', and in the earlier books of the Tanakh he's a courier at Yahweh's HQ, not Milton's revolutionary. The story, or play, of Job has God making a bet with him, for instance.

But if God is omnipotent then Satan, and demons (in the Christian sense) generally, can only exist in accordance with God's will.

 

[blü 2]

Thank you. I know most people don't mean anything bad when saying Merry Christmas, and always say thank you when someone does so. I also respect other people and their right to believe and worship as they see fit.

I did not repeat the quotes in the Greek Scriptures from Paul about mixing pagan practices with worship to Jehovah because I quoted them above already (it would be redundant).

When I ask questions like the ones above, it is not to start a fight, or get people angry, or make them think I feel I am above them. Quite the contrary we are all under sin and need salvation. No one is greater than any other, and God loves all humankind. I do it to make people reflect on their relationship with God. That is what Bible reading and meditation on it is for. To reveal to a person what sort of person he is before Jehovah God. For the Bible reveals to us how God views us, it is a mirror, and it is alive and exerts power and its word pierces to the marrow and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Then I won't mention Santa.

Go well.

 

[Eyes to See]

But if God is omnipotent then Satan, and demons (in the Christian sense) generally, can only exist in accordance with God's will.

Satan made himself the adversary. He was created a perfect angel, and he soon will be crushed according to God's will. God has allowed his rebellion to set precedent. When his time comes he will no longer exist, and no longer will precedent need to be set. God will not allow a future rebellion as he did this one.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Did you know that the Bible, although mentioning God by his name Jehovah over 7,000 times, does not mention the names of any angels but two: Gabriel and Michael.

And Raphael. Oh, wait. The Protestants threw a bunch of books out of the Bible, so you wouldn't know about him. There's other traditions that include more.