African American Culture Appropriation(hypocrisy?)

[sealchan]

Yesterday before I was yet once again sent to facebook jail for 30 days(reasons unrelated to that conversation) I was in a debate about baby names, a woman was complaining about how certain names bothered her, in particular they were African American baby names, like Lateisha, Ladasha, Jashanna, Makayla, Tawana, Lakeisha, Dazzline, Aaliyah, Indigo etc etc, that got me thinking where do these names come from? so naturally I started searching up the etymology of these names.

Turns out, 90% of these names origins are not African. lots of Hebrew, Latin, Engish, Greek, Arabic, Persian, loads are European, Middle Eastern or Asian, and surprisingly few actually have origins from the "mainland."

Yet I do find African Americans to be more poignant and "offended" when others appropriate their own culture like it is taboo to touch other's cultures and assimilate it into their own. Yet I find it highly hypocritical that their own names are not "of their people" yet they claim it as theirs. Or any other non African tradition. America is a gianormous multicultural melting pot, you might think that all is fair game. Are we truly that divided when it comes to what we call our own? When the truth is, it was not our own to begin with?

Sure we are a melting pot...but eventually some people get tired of those who have who continue to do all the taking. If there were trusts between certain segments of the population there wouldn't be as many complaints.

So there are two right answers...its all fair game for creativity AND we should show respect for each other.

 

[Revoltingest]

I know it will confuse people, but as a by product...it would be really funny hearing people butcher his name.

I bet the kid would find it hilarious.
Children love to be singled out for being odd.

 

[Cacotopia]

he is gonna be a weirdo anyways with my genes, might as well seal the deal with a name to boot.

 

[sealchan]

The term "cultural appropriation" is frequently misused. It is supposed to refer to usurping cultural practices in a negative fashion, not innocuous or benign usages.

What about for profit? Is that negative or positive?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is choice v no choice essential in making one's preference wrong v right?

The act of appropriation right or wrong? I find it disrespectul either way, a choice or not. I put the burden on those with the choice than those without.

Like murder. Murder (taking a life; for point) is morally wrong, but we decide the consequences of morality based on circumstance rather than the act itself.

Morally, to me at least, they are both wrong. Our US government determines moriality by situation. The former had no choice in the matter, the latter did.

We place "wrong" on one's choice and relief of consequence on those without it. (We punish sinners but save those who had no choice to be inherited with sin; we have christian influences of morality)

 

[sealchan]

The act of appropriation right or wrong? I find it disrespectul either way, a choice or not. I put the burden on those with the choice than those without.

Like murder. Murder (taking a life; for point) is morally wrong, but we decide the consequences of morality based on circumstance rather than the act itself.

Morally, to me at least, they are both wrong. Our US government determines moriality by situation. The former had no choice in the matter, the latter did.

We place "wrong" on one's choice and relief of consequence on those without it. (We punish sinners but save those who had no choice to be inherited with sin; we have christian influences of morality)

I would, as someone who wants to "take" something from another culture, especially one that has been exploited by the culture in which the "taker" belongs, to ask yourself one question, "How would I feel if I told someone from that culture what I did with that element of their culture, how would that make me and them feel?" The answer to that question should determine whether or not you choose to use it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am so sick of being held back by both sets of my ancestors. Can we just move on already and quit tightly hugging the wrongs done a century ago when none of us were even alive? Yes, my family were screwed 100 times over by the British. You don't see us barring white folk from wearing our dress and eating our food.

I live with people three times my age, eighties and nighties, and they still "remember." Its not too far ago, at least where I live where we still reinact the Civil War etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

The act of appropriation right or wrong? I find it disrespectul either way, a choice or not. I put the burden on those with the choice than those without.

Like murder. Murder (taking a life; for point) is morally wrong, but we decide the consequences of morality based on circumstance rather than the act itself.

Morally, to me at least, they are both wrong. Our US government determines moriality by situation. The former had no choice in the matter, the latter did.

We place "wrong" on one's choice and relief of consequence on those without it. (We punish sinners but save those who had no choice to be inherited with sin; we have christian influences of morality)

I see nothing wrong with adopting facets of the cultures of others.
Note that black folk could choose to not sing opera, play western
classical music, ski, or play golf. Let them appropriate those things
& excel if they want.

I'm reminded of the old argument that the "homosexual lifestyle" was
a "choice", & therefore wrong. I didn't care if it were a choice or not.
It was solely the business of the person living it.

 

[sealchan]

I see nothing wrong with adopting facets of the cultures of others.
Note that black folk could choose to not sing opera, play western
classical music, ski, or play golf. Let them appropriate those things
& excel if they want.

I'm reminded of the old argument that the "homosexual lifestyle" was
a "choice", & therefore wrong. I didn't care if it were a choice or not.
It was solely the business of the person living it.

It is not so much the act of using material from other cultures but whether there is a history of exploitation...there are no hard, fast rules but one should consider, given historical contexts, how it would make you or others feel to use that content.

If one has the approval of known members of a culture for you to make extra-cultural use of certain material, that may be enough. Even if other members of that culture criticize you, you can tell them the story of how you were led to believe otherwise by equal representation. That may or may not convince them. In the end it matters most how you feel and you should expect such criticisms. In anticipation of that, do you have a reasonable story to tell in support of your use of that material?

In the end it matters so much that someone actually stops to take the time to think, to feel, to relate to that "other" that might complain against you. You may change your mind, you might be further inspired...you might be encouraged. Then when the complaints come, you will have your own moment to create a story that bridges the gap and helps to heal the hurt and the injustice we all culturally inherit.

It is worth taking that extra time and effort, it is not just a nuissance but part of our responsibility to create a fair and balanced melting pot.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Cultural appropriation is just a BS term, if you are emulating said culture is it not because you are fascinated by it? Isn't that a good thing? Would it not behoove you to help spread your own culture so that others can also appreciate it?

I largely agree. Cultures aren't static, and every time any two cultures have come into contact, cross polination has occured, whether by force or peaceful osmosis. It's great to be proud of your cultural heritage, but that doesn't mean drawing a line around it and saying "ONLY PEOPLE OF X HERITAGE MAY USE THIS!" Personally, the culture I come from is the culture that most resonates with me. I have mostly no real interest in adopting cultural practices from outside my heritage. But if someone from outside my culture wants to study and adopt my cultural heritage, more power to them. Culture isn't a zero sum game.

And, I suspect, that's the real motivation here. Our stupid monkey brains evolved to think in purely loss/gain terms, e.g. "if this outsider gets MORE fruit, I will get LESS fruit, therefore the outsider must not be allowed to get fruit!" Which makes perfect evolutionary sense. The problem arises when we apply the same thinking to non-finite concepts, e.g. "if this outsider gets MORE of our culture, 5hat will leave LESS culture for us, therefore the outsider must be stopped!"

 

[Revoltingest]

It is not so much the act of using material from other cultures but whether there is a history of exploitation...there are no hard, fast rules but one should consider, given historical contexts, how it would make you or others feel to use that content.

If one has the approval of known members of a culture for you to make extra-cultural use of certain material, that may be enough. Even if other members of that culture criticize you, you can tell them the story of how you were led to believe otherwise by equal representation. That may or may not convince them. In the end it matters most how you feel and you should expect such criticisms. In anticipation of that, do you have a reasonable story to tell in support of your use of that material?

In the end it matters so much that someone actually stops to take the time to think, to feel, to relate to that "other" that might complain against you. You may change your mind, you might be further inspired...you might be encouraged. Then when the complaints come, you will have your own moment to create a story that bridges the gap and helps to heal the hurt and the injustice we all culturally inherit.

It is worth taking that extra time and effort, it is not just a nuissance but part of our responsibility to create a fair and balanced melting pot.

I'm not big on getting approval of others....especially city or county building departments.

 

[Quintessence]

What about for profit? Is that negative or positive?

Depends on your values, I'd wager (and also what said profits are being used for). Most people in my country don't have a problem with for-profit operations on general principle. Not being a fan of capitalism, I don't count myself among their number.

 

[sealchan]

Depends on your values, I'd wager (and also what said profits are being used for). Most people in my country don't have a problem with for-profit operations on general principle. Not being a fan of capitalism, I don't count myself among their number.

But let's say someone with a lot of family money wants to create a "ethnic" restaurant business and so they "appropriate" a certain type of ethnic food. After opening their doors with a TV ad campaign or whatever they get a lot of business. They take most of the non-ethnic customers away from the existing local ethnic restaurants who flock to this newer, shinier, more "familiar" atmosphere and the other local businesses suffer.

Now there is nothing wrong with this from the capitalist business model. But how do you think the other people in the community feel?

Let's assume that in that community how people feel and treat each other is important and is often discussed...

 

[Quintessence]

But let's say someone with a lot of family money wants to create a "ethnic" restaurant business and so they "appropriate" a certain type of ethnic food. After opening their doors with a TV ad campaign or whatever they get a lot of business. They take most of the non-ethnic customers away from the existing local ethnic restaurants who flock to this newer, shinier, more "familiar" atmosphere and the other local businesses suffer.

Now there is nothing wrong with this from the capitalist business model. But how do you think the other people in the community feel?

Let's assume that in that community how people feel and treat each other is important and is often discussed...

Like I said, I'm personally not a fan of for-profit models on general principle. I'm especially not a fan of chain stores coming in to my town and running out the local businesses which tend to be more culturally authentic. There's not much I can do about it aside from vote with my wallet. I'm fortunate that I live in a place that is relatively friendly to small, local businesses (including ethnic restaurants) but the incursion of crap like Panda Express has made me uneasy. On the other hand, it's not as if most Chinese food made at these local places is that authentic either. It's American Chinese. Many of the places around here have an off-menu that serves authentic stuff, though, because we're a college town. That stuff is great. So long as people support it, it sticks around.

In that sense, it doesn't much matter what other people do with your cultural traditions. If you keep to it and your community still supports more authentic stuff, it survives. You can't control what other people do, but you can vote with your wallet and control what you do, yeah?

 

[Father Heathen]

It's bad to appropriate black culture because most black people in America are in America because their ancestors were brought to America in chains and there was an attempted erasure of their culture. Certain traditions aren't appropriated out of appreciation but as a way to take individual practices and assimilate them. Even if it's not the intent, it's frequently the outcome.
Most black people in America cannot be faulted for having been influenced by different European cultures which were literally forced onto their ancestors as a means of forced assimilation.

I can see a pretty distinct difference between the two.

Culture isn't intellectual property. Culture (and language) is a fluid and influential thing; it changes, it mixes, it diverges, it spreads, it fades, etc.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

De ja vu

I see nothing wrong with adopting facets of the cultures of others.

Its more than just taking something from someone else.

Think of if you had a family valuable thats been in your generation for years. (Hypothetical) You want to keep it in your own family and pass it down.

Only in This hypothetical, only, if I came and took one of your family's cherished items, painted it my own rainbow colors, and said "Im respecting your family not droping the item to break", how would you feel (or someone in the position who values family items if you dont would feel) that I, a stranger, would do such a thing to your family line?

Even if you dont care about family values or dont have any, if someone does, how would you think They would feel about breaking their generations valuables?

Only answer according to the details of the analogy not mix a match them.

If its right, how?

If its wrong, how?

Nothing in between.

Note that black folk could choose to not sing opera, play western
classical music, ski, or play golf. Let them appropriate those things & excel if they want.

Dont understand the connection. Stereotypes isnt the same as appropriation.

I'm reminded of the old argument that the "homosexual lifestyle" was
a "choice", & therefore wrong. I didn't care if it were a choice or not.
It was solely the business of the person living it.

Huh? How does this relate?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

De ja vu



Its more than just taking something from someone else.

Think of if you had a family valuable thats been in your generation for years. (Hypothetical) You want to keep it in your own family and pass it down.

Only in This hypothetical, only, if I came and took one of your family's cherished items, painted it my own rainbow colors, and said "Im respecting your family not droping the item to break", how would you feel (or someone in the position who values family items if you dont would feel) that I, a stranger, would do such a thing to your family line?

Even if you dont care about family values or dont have any, if someone does, how would you think They would feel about breaking their generations valuables?

Only answer according to the details of the analogy not mix a match them.

If its right, how?

If its wrong, how?

Nothing in between.



Dont understand the connection. Stereotypes isnt the same as appropriation.



Huh? How does this relate?

Not the same. Borrowing from someone else's culture doesn't "break" it. If you want to live by your own cultural tenets, be my guest. I fully support your right to do so. However, your right to do so is not in any way affected if I choose to borrow some of those tenets myself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not the same. Borrowing from someone else's culture doesn't "break" it. If you want to live by your own cultural tenets, be my guest. I fully support your right to do so. However, your right to do so is not in any way affected if I choose to borrow some of those tenets myself.

What you call borrowing, they call stealing. People didnt just "give" their culture to other people. People killed each other because or culture clashes and appropriation. It wasnt borrowing. It was stealing and using X for political use so that Y either could follow or be killed. It wasnt a nice exchange.

I see it as immoral given my history and cultural herritage.

How do you "borrow" someone's culture?

If you took an arlum of mine, how is that borrowing when you didnt ask permission to use it?

When did stealing become borrowing?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

What you call borrowing, they call stealing. People didnt just "give" their culture to other people. People killed each other because or culture clashes and appropriation. It wasnt borrowing. It was stealing and using X for political use so that Y either could follow or be killed. It wasnt a nice exchange.

I see it as immoral given my history and cultural herritage.

How do you "borrow" someone's culture?

If you took an arlum of mine, how is that borrowing when you didnt ask permission to use it?

When did stealing become borrowing?

But I'm not TAKING anything from you at all. Hence my "non-zero sum" comment. Stealing by definition involves depriving someone else of something. If I borrow from your culture, I'm not depriving you of anything.

Consider, for example, the language we are conversing in. English. It is an inherent part of my culture, but I lose nothing by your use of it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I went to a (Native American) POW WOW years ago. My family and I are fair toned skinn and have similiar looks and history and many native americans. There were a Lot of white people there too. We were all buying jewelry, clothing, etc. When my family arived, one tribal resident asked us where we were from and ethnicity. She was so happy we were'nt white. She remarked, LOOK minorities!

"White" people bought their cultural jelewery. They used clothing not made to be used for personal wear but for prayer ans rituals. While most people thought it was appropriate (they had permission), it wasnt the choice of the tribes to give their cultural designs. They needed to sell items to make money for their tribes. Even those who wished to be recognized by US government still live in poverty. Yet, people are happy to claim they are 1% native american. Its an insult. One tribal cheif told me that you have to be X native blood of a given tribe. They look to women first for seniority. You have to get permission from the chief. You need to know customs and culture and for many language.

Its not borrowing. Its stealing. Stealing religions. Stealing traditions. People in history didnt just say "here you go eureopeans do what you will with our family. Our language. Our way of life." US cititizens cant step foot with that countries citizenship with knowing the language ane having some connection of business or familar relations to grant welcome.

Some places you cant just "barrow" items. They wont let you take them out of the country.

Its not just historical or global. Its local. Its individual. Either one respects a culture or not. While we dont usually choose what we use that was "made from china" nor can we just stop eating foreign foods, thats not cultural appropriation. Like the NA above, they give their culture to survive.

CA having to do with traditions and language sacred that those native to those traditions will keep in the family without selling it. Its stealing like eurpeans do (not did).

Its not something people wanted.

What bothers me also is reading on RF why you guys think its okay. Its not just in the past. Its everyday life. We cant help eating some form of meat but if you are vegan, your morals will be different towards meat eating regardless how it was processed and distributed and who did it and why.