African American Culture Appropriation(hypocrisy?)

[Thermos aquaticus]

So blacks can’t be faulted for appropriating from others, but others can be faulted whenever they appropriate from blacks. Nice double standard.

The standard is that you should not appropriate from cultures within your society that have been victims of institutionalized discrimination and slavery.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

The standard is that you should not appropriate from cultures within your society that have been victims of institutionalized discrimination and slavery.

Why?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

People didnt just "give" their language to others willingly. People were killed over culture clash.

But I'm not TAKING anything from you at all. Hence my "non-zero sum" comment. Stealing by definition involves depriving someone else of something. If I borrow from your culture, I'm not depriving you of anything.

When you take a item belonging to a culture to which you are not apart of nor have familarity with the relations there, to them, yes, you are stealing.

Best example I can give (personal experience) is Deaf (not deaf) Culture.


Deaf Culture Hijacked: The Hearing-Minded Taking Advantage of the Word “Deaf”

deaf-someone with hearing lost

Deaf-Someone Deaf or Hard of Hearing who recognize herself by cultural identity with people like herself-hard of hearing and Deaf based on like experiences, art, language rather than hearing loss.

A lot of hearing are stealing the ASL language without using it within the Deaf community with which the language is owned.

ASL is part French as well as other signed languages. That doesnt change who can use it. It wasnt a choice.

Same as other languages. Some languages and some words in spoke langusge as well, is more appropriate spoken by the people who know the original dialect before it was mixed.

Consider, for example, the language we are conversing in. English. It is an inherent part of my culture, but I lose nothing by your use of it.

The history doesnt excuse the immoral use of other peoples language. We dont Have to use English. Some people, especially British, will look down on American English because it is disorted with other languages.

Its not something we can help. I just feel its respect to be mindful of things we CAN chose to adopt or "borrow" and who is hurt by taking those traditions and language. It depends where you live too. The clash is more apparent in less urban areas. Its very pronounced in other countries with strong ties to preserving their traditions and language (especially from US americans who they think we all choose to take things that arent ours to take.)

 

[columbus]

Yesterday before I was yet once again sent to facebook jail for 30 days

Is that a problem for someone who cherishes their "wheelhouse of solitude"?
Tom

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Why?

The thought is that a culture that develops under the hardship of slavery and discrimination is cheapened when it is appropriated by the culture that oversaw slavery and discrimination. It's like a German catholic taking on the airs of a Jew and talking about the hardships of the Holocaust.

 

[LuisDantas]

Literally everyone who is not a hermit from an early age commits cultural appropriation.

It just turns out that some cultures are closer at hand to appropriate from than others.

To use that as a criticism truly confounds me.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Literally everyone who is not a hermit from an early age commits cultural appropriation.

It just turns out that some cultures are closer at hand to appropriate from than others.

To use that as a criticism truly confounds me.

Obviously, there isn't a hard and fast rule for cultural appropriation. If someone is reverential to the cultural source and grew up within that culture then it usually isn't frowned upon. A poor white kid who grows up in the hood can exist in the world of hip hop without raising too many eyebrows. A white kid who grows up in Beverly Hills isn't going to be given the same leeway. White artists who immerse themselves in classic blues and show reverence for the long line of black artists who perfected blues music is going to be looked on kindly.

What matters is the respect that people are shown.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

People didnt just "give" their language to others willingly. People were killed over culture clash.


When you take a item belonging to a culture to which you are not apart of nor have familarity with the relations there, to them, yes, you are stealing.

Best example I can give (personal experience) is Deaf (not deaf) Culture.


Deaf Culture Hijacked: The Hearing-Minded Taking Advantage of the Word “Deaf”

deaf-someone with hearing lost

Deaf-Someone Deaf or Hard of Hearing who recognize herself by cultural identity with people like herself-hard of hearing and Deaf based on like experiences, art, language rather than hearing loss.

A lot of hearing are stealing the ASL language without using it within the Deaf community with which the language is owned.

ASL is part French as well as other signed languages. That doesnt change who can use it. It wasnt a choice.

Same as other languages. Some languages and some words in spoke langusge as well, is more appropriate spoken by the people who know the original dialect before it was mixed.

Says who? If I learn ASL, that doesn't steal anything from deaf people. Indeed, I would have thought it makes deaf/non-deaf interactions better for everyone.

The history doesnt excuse the immoral use of other peoples language.

How is it ever immoral to use any language?

We dont Have to use English.

Use whatever language you like. The point is that you ARE using my language, and I am not diminished by it

Some people, especially British, will look down on American English because it is disorted with other languages.

Sure. But that's not a moral judgement, nor is it a matter of theft

Its not something we can help. I just feel its respect to be mindful of things we CAN chose to adopt or "borrow" and who is hurt by taking those traditions and language. It depends where you live too. The clash is more apparent in less urban areas. Its very pronounced in other countries with strong ties to preserving their traditions and language (especially from US americans who they think we all choose to take things that arent ours to take.)

How is anyone hurt by anyone borrowing from their culture? Cultural borrowing costs nothing, harms no one, and is universal.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Obviously, there isn't a hard and fast rule for cultural appropriation. If someone is reverential to the cultural source and grew up within that culture then it usually isn't frowned upon. A poor white kid who grows up in the hood can exist in the world of hip hop without raising too many eyebrows. A white kid who grows up in Beverly Hills isn't going to be given the same leeway. White artists who immerse themselves in classic blues and show reverence for the long line of black artists who perfected blues music is going to be looked on kindly.

What matters is the respect that people are shown.

Gatekeeping nonsense. "Oh, you're not a real fan unless you can name the original bassist who was with the band for 3 months in high school's mother's maiden name..."

 

[SomeRandom]

I live with people three times my age, eighties and nighties, and they still "remember." Its not too far ago, at least where I live where we still reinact the Civil War etc.

I'm all for remembering the past, I merely question why we must constantly relive past grudges that us mellenials had absolutely nothing to do with. It was before our time, our current peers, white black whatever didn't do anything to my family. They didn't enact Jim Crow, or steal an entire generation or abandon my family in a strange land etc. It just seems at times that this generation, my generation has to constantly lick the wounds of our ancestors long since dead. It just seems to perpetuate a cycle of blame that the underprivileged latch onto to excuse themselves from bettering themselves and their community (not that I'm against programs to help the underprivileged of course.)
I guess I have a hard time accepting identity politics and cultural appropriation not because I think society is "fixed now" or because I'm an anti whatever, I just take issue with what I see as a constant cycle of blame and hurt. It just seems to do more harm than good IMO.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I dont think you honestly understand it. I know as an minority and ally of minorities, I experience it intensily. Im highly empathetic.

Says who? If I learn ASL, that doesn't steal anything from deaf people. Indeed, I would have thought it makes deaf/non-deaf interactions better for everyone.

It does. Deaf not deaf. It will take a good while and sensitvity and openess to explain it since Im not deaf nor Deaf, just a hearing ally.

How is it ever immoral to use any language?

Its immoral to use the original language held within a said culture. If I came to Africa, thinking because Im African American I can use their language, thats an insult. Yes, I need to use their language to communicate with those who do not speak English. However, using the language to converse and using the language without direct need is stealing. Using "African' American" to many is stealing already because even though most African Americans came from Africa doesnt mean we still hold the culture insofar to carry that name. Even more of an insult to use one's tribal name. So forth down the line.

Use whatever language you like. The point is that you ARE using my language, and I am not diminished by it

Thats you personally. Minorities, as a group, are diminished by it. I was born and raised in the US, but Im not fazed if another uses English. English isnt a cultural language held sacred to a given group or ethnicity. However, if you took something that meant something personal to LGBTQ as a whole (not termed homosexuals), yes, WE, as a unit, would feel denimished. Give or take. Some more than others. Details arent the point.

You can Do whatever you want. That doesnt mean you have everyone's permission because you dont see culture as they do. Just be mindful of others. The least one can do is respect.

Sure. But that's not a moral judgement, nor is it a matter of theft

If you like. Not all feel that way if you look at it from our peespective too.

How is anyone hurt by anyone borrowing from their culture? Cultural borrowing costs nothing, harms no one, and is universal.

Long story. Youd have to be more open to other peoples personal worldview. Some of us are so engraved in multiple cultures that WE are ignorant to minorities. I understood this well being in LGBT culture and studying and befriending those in the Deaf community.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sure. But that's not a moral judgement, nor is it a matter of theft

A lot of minorities arent expecting you to get it (example below). Just be mindful of others when using things like language and traditions that you dont Need.

Obviously, there isn't a hard and fast rule for cultural appropriation. If someone is reverential to the cultural source and grew up within that culture then it usually isn't frowned upon. A poor white kid who grows up in the hood can exist in the world of hip hop without raising too many eyebrows. A white kid who grows up in Beverly Hills isn't going to be given the same leeway. White artists who immerse themselves in classic blues and show reverence for the long line of black artists who perfected blues music is going to be looked on kindly.

What matters is the respect that people are shown.

You can do whatever you like, @Armoured . We're become so mixed, its hard for people to keep their own traditions. Its not our faults; just, dont reinvent the wheel.

Respect.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm all for remembering the past, I merely question why we must constantly relive past grudges that us mellenials had absolutely nothing to do with. It was before our time, our current peers, white black whatever didn't do anything to my family. They didn't enact Jim Crow, or steal an entire generation or abandon my family in a strange land etc. It just seems at times that this generation, my generation has to constantly lick the wounds of our ancestors long since dead. It just seems to perpetuate a cycle of blame that the underprivileged latch onto to excuse themselves from bettering themselves and their community (not that I'm against programs to help th

I can understand that. I wasnt raised where culture as in tradition, religion, and language is my life past, present, and future. Other people older than me in family still live it. Its hard to switch generations and let up grudges that was experienced just "yesterday."

Politically, Id agree with you. Individually, I see its different than, how you say, pity-party. I know people in the US urbam areas like parts of NY may not experience it. People in DC do politically. Its still happening in present day. Its not more history but just a change of scenary and gadgets.

I guess I have a hard time accepting identity politics and cultural appropriation not because I think society is "fixed now" or because I'm an anti whatever, I just take issue with what I see as a constant cycle of blame and hurt. It just seems to do more harm than good IMO.

Yeah. I'm incomfortable with being always on the outside when I interacted in the Deaf Community. My Deaf friend whom I still speak with since elementart school said, one day, she got new hearing aids. She donated her old ones to other Deaf children or adults who need them. Things like that, keeping culture alive, is what its about.

Not looking at history's bad side but using same experiences to find reasons to live the good. There will always be discrimination. I just hope the majority (urban, white, hearing, straight, rich, men, etc) would one day see it. Not an overnight change but some type of lightbulb. The first black president was a start. His race not political views.

 

[LuisDantas]

Obviously, there isn't a hard and fast rule for cultural appropriation. If someone is reverential to the cultural source and grew up within that culture then it usually isn't frowned upon. A poor white kid who grows up in the hood can exist in the world of hip hop without raising too many eyebrows. A white kid who grows up in Beverly Hills isn't going to be given the same leeway. White artists who immerse themselves in classic blues and show reverence for the long line of black artists who perfected blues music is going to be looked on kindly.

What matters is the respect that people are shown.

I have to wonder if deeply divided cultures such as current USA (and for that matter Brazil, but also many others) have enough respect towards themselves to meet that bar.

It just feels so arbitrary.

 

[SomeRandom]

I can understand that. I wasnt raised where culture as in tradition, religion, and language is my life past, present, and future. Other people older than me in family still live it. Its hard to switch generations and let up grudges that was experienced just "yesterday."

I was. Thankfully the undercurrent of "it is/was what it is/was" was a very pervasive thought. So past transgressions were often posthumously forgiven, as it were. Not so for many people I know, however.

Politically, Id agree with you. Individually, I see its different than, how you say, pity-party. I know people in the US urbam areas like parts of NY may not experience it. People in DC do politically. Its still happening in present day. Its not more history but just a change of scenary and gadgets.

I suppose to be fair, I'm not really American. So I have my own set of identity politics to deal with, I won't front and say I understand your neck of the woods. And I am not in any way saying there aren't legitimate grievances. It's just that while I wholeheartedly support programs to help out indigenous communities, there is still an element who would rather sit back collecting reparations, complaining about the past whilst not doing anything about the future. I'm not saying that is a very large element,there are plenty of indigenous people who decide to better their future and their families. The achievements they go onto grab are admirable. But I feel like cycles of poverty, alcohol abuse and violence does tend to feed into this almost sense of entitlement and lack of motivation to really break it, instead opting to nurse decades (and even centuries old) grudges. We happily call white communities who live on welfare, engaged in drug/alcohol abuse and indentured into a cycle of poverty "dole bludgers" (white/trailer trash for you Americans.) And yet when an indigenous community does the same thing, it's suddenly worthy of sympathy, giving them no real motivation to seek help to break the chains holding them back. I just think that we should be helping both communities and whilst I realize the approach has to be different to allow for cultural differences, I thing that sometimes that comes with a little criticism. Not to abuse or harass them but to I guess try to wake them up. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm coming across as racist. But I'm merely using this as an example because it's the one I'm most familiar with.

Yeah. I'm incomfortable with being always on the outside when I interacted in the Deaf Community. My Deaf friend whom I still speak with since elementart school said, one day, she got new hearing aids. She donated her old ones to other Deaf children or adults who need them. Things like that, keeping culture alive, is what its about.

That's pretty cool.

I feel like an outsider in both my cultures. On the one hand I'm too far removed to really be truly authentically Indian. Too much of a Westerner. Even among my Western raised relatives. But on the other hand I have to awkwardly share this "white guilt" even though I can still talk to living relatives who can recount abuses inflicted upon them by British colonials, whilst happily breaking bread with my father's (Brit/Aussie) family. It's like I'm caught in the middle of all these abuses and heartaches from not only both sides but the past atrocities inflicted upon the indigenous people of my homeland. Like can we all just agree that the past was full of awful things happening to everyone not rich and white and move on?

Not looking at history's bad side but using same experiences to find reasons to live the good. There will always be discrimination. I just hope the majority (urban, white, hearing, straight, rich, men, etc) would one day see it. Not an overnight change but some type of lightbulb. The first black president was a start. His race not political views.

That's probably a healthy way to look at things.

 

[columbus]

I wondered.
I searched.
I found.

That's just gotta offend someone somewhere.
But if this guy wants to channel angry groundskeepers, he has my approval.

OMG!
The cultural appropriation here is utterly beyond the pale.
When I get my hands around the waist of that burly black stud, I am going to rip off his kilt and throw it as far as I can.
Tom

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I dont think you honestly understand it. I know as an minority and ally of minorities, I experience it intensily. Im highly empathetic.

You know nothing about me or my background

It does. Deaf not deaf. It will take a good while and sensitvity and openess to explain it since Im not deaf nor Deaf, just a hearing ally.

So explain it, then

Its immoral to use the original language held within a said culture. If I came to Africa, thinking because Im African American I can use their language, thats an insult. Yes, I need to use their language to communicate with those who do not speak English. However, using the language to converse and using the language without direct need is stealing. Using "African' American" to many is stealing already because even though most African Americans came from Africa doesnt mean we still hold the culture insofar to carry that name. Even more of an insult to use one's tribal name. So forth down the line.

What nonsense. Most places it's considered highly respectful to speak to people in their native language, rather than expect them to speak English. Indeed, many places the insult is expecting them to speak English while you make no attempt to speak the local language.

Thats you personally. Minorities, as a group, are diminished by it. I was born and raised in the US, but Im not fazed if another uses English. English isnt a cultural language held sacred to a given group or ethnicity. However, if you took something that meant something personal to LGBTQ as a whole (not termed homosexuals), yes, WE, as a unit, would feel denimished. Give or take. Some more than others. Details arent the point.

How are minorities "diminished" by borrowing from them? Specifically? How is anyone diminished by borrowing? You keep making the claim, you seem unable to explain it.

You can Do whatever you want. That doesnt mean you have everyone's permission because you dont see culture as they do. Just be mindful of others. The least one can do is respect.

I never suggested anyone be anything but respectful. That doesn't mean I need permission to borrow from anyone's culture, any more than anyone needs permission to borrow from mine.

Long story. Youd have to be more open to other peoples personal worldview. Some of us are so engraved in multiple cultures that WE are ignorant to minorities. I understood this well being in LGBT culture and studying and befriending those in the Deaf community.

You're making the claim. It's up to you to support it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You know nothing about me or my backgroundSo explain it, thenWhat nonsense. Most places it's considered highly respectful to speak to people in their native language, rather than expect them to speak English. Indeed, many places the insult is expecting them to speak English while you make no attempt to speak the local language. How are minorities "diminished" by borrowing from them? Specifically? How is anyone diminished by borrowing? You keep making the claim, you seem unable to explain it. I never suggested anyone be anything but respectful. That doesn't mean I need permission to borrow from anyone's culture, any more than anyone needs permission to borrow from mine.
You're making the claim. It's up to you to support it.

Rephrase your post. You are taking this personally where there is no insult intended.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

A lot of minorities arent expecting you to get it (example below). Just be mindful of others when using things like language and traditions that you dont Need.



You can do whatever you like, @Armoured . We're become so mixed, its hard for people to keep their own traditions. Its not our faults; just, dont reinvent the wheel.

Respect.

Once again, culture is not zero sum. If anyone is finding it hard to keep their traditions, it's not because other people are borrowing from them. I am active in several organisations about keeping traditional Western European culture and heritage alive. And I welcome anyone who wants to participate. What you don't seem to get is that we've ALWAYS been mixed. With the possible exception of the !kung culture (and even there I doubt there has been no detectable cultural osmosis) every culture on the planet is an amalgam of earlier cultures that have shifted, changed, merged, split, borrowed, traded, migrated, interbred, conquered and been subjugated by, with and to one another. Culture isn't static, and never has been. Culture doesn't exist in a vacuum, and never has.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Rephrase your post. You are taking this personally where there is no insult intended.

I don't think I need to rephrase anything, my meanings are clear. Can you answer the core question here or not?