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African American?

rheff78

I'm your huckleberry.
Where does it stop though. If you were born here, you're American. Why label it anything else? Like I said, I'm not European American or Irish American. I'm a white (slightly tanned) American. You can still be proud and curious about your heritage (as I am mine) but not cause division by labeling yourself African American, Asian American, etc. We are ALL Americans, and we ALL came from somewhere else.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
We are ALL Americans, and we ALL came from somewhere else.
I understand the point you are trying to make... but you assume everyone who lives here was born here.... or that everyone who is born here will remain here.... country of origin might not be important to "average joe american", but it is quite important to those of us who have lived in other countries.
 

rheff78

I'm your huckleberry.
I understand that. I guess maybe I should narrow it down. I'm talking about your average black person that was born and living in America. I'm very curious about my ancestors and I want to know all about where they came from but the title doesn't have to be, Irish American.
 

kai

ragamuffin
This illustrates the main difference as far as the current subject goes between me and you. This is something I can't do Dallas. I cannot go back far enough to get past the plantation owner that may have owned some of my ancestors. I can't say well, my great-great-great grandmother was from a tribe in Ghana, and all of that. My ancestral history and thusly cultural and racial identity has been lost. This has resulted in us having to make a culture and forge and identity while distancing ourselves from slavery. Problem is, that's the heritage and mentality that has been passed down to us generation to generation, because that's what we came to identify ourselves as - slaves. So along the way we went from negroes, to colored, to black, to african-american, and I can't for the life of me understand why it is even a point of discussion that we should somehow feel silly and shallow if we prefer the term. That we are just being sensitive about it and we should just call ourselves American.


well i cant get further back than my great grand parents, my cultural identity is therefor the country my family has grown up in. i am "white" but thats how i was born, the slave trade should be well documented and people should not cherry pick it and leave out african and arab contributions to it , i am afraid your great great great grand mother may very well have been sold by an Afican.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
I understand that. I guess maybe I should narrow it down. I'm talking about your average black person that was born and living in America. I'm very curious about my ancestors and I want to know all about where they came from but the title doesn't have to be, Irish American.
OK.... you're getting there....:D but you do realize that the title "Irish American" is quite important (especially here outside of Boston) and that some people do identify themselves by the national/ethnic backround? It's not because of a lack of patriotism or the desire to exclude others.... actually having a tangible national/ethnic backround is something that the "average" American (who only has a basic sense of "Well.... my Mom told me that Grandpa was German") can't relate to.
 

Izdaari

Emergent Anglo-Catholic
Hmm. Heinz 57 mutt that I am, I guess I must be a European-Asian-African-Native American? :confused:
 

Fluffy

A fool
I prefer the term "people". So far, I've never been in a situation where it hasn't applied and so I see no reason to exchange it for anything more complex.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
I prefer the term "people". So far, I've never been in a situation where it hasn't applied and so I see no reason to exchange it for anything more complex.
My friend.... please don't go to Harlem and yell out "you people".... might not go so well.:D
 

rheff78

I'm your huckleberry.
I do understand that. But even then it's silly. I know Germans and Italians and Irish and alot of others have a rich history. It's normal for wanting to know about your heritage, but, IMHO, that's where it should stop. I don't think there is a need to identify outright, hey I'm such and such. You're American first, heritage second. DOn't get me wrong, I'm proud as anything to be of Irish decent, but I don't go around saying, hey, I'm Irish American!!!
 

Fluffy

A fool
Scott1 said:
My friend.... please don't go to Harlem and yell out "you people".... might not go so well.
biggrin.gif
Hehe fair point! :)
 

Fat Old Sun

Active Member
For the record... there are some of us "African Americans" who are not "black".

Freaks people out when I mark that on applications and what not....

An interesting point. A person who can trace his heritage back to Morocco or Lybia, or even a lily white fella from South Africa who lives in the states now could lay claim to the title African American. That brush paints with a bit broader stroke than most people realize.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Where does it stop though. If you were born here, you're American. Why label it anything else? Like I said, I'm not European American or Irish American. I'm a white (slightly tanned) American. You can still be proud and curious about your heritage (as I am mine) but not cause division by labeling yourself African American, Asian American, etc. We are ALL Americans, and we ALL came from somewhere else.

It will stop on its own as our somewhat separated cultures get over our past.

It did when the Irish and Italians became fully accepted as Americans, when Catholics became accepted fully as Americans, and when that largely happens for those of African descent, and they really *are* viewed as fully American by society at large, then all this stuff will become a non-issue.

Even those of European descent have had their divides. Maybe we forget that because it isn't an issue now as it was a century ago? It was a big scandal in my own family when my mother, who "was Dutch" decided to date my dad, because he wasn't Dutch but French.

We would think that "difference" is laughable now, eh?

And yet, the idea that there is some reason why blacks marrying whites should be just as accepted as those of Dutch descent marrying those of French descent hasn't happened yet, which I think should tell us there is still some progress we need to make in our country.

Not to interject matters of faith into this, but fwiw among Baha'is the racial divide between black and white is called the "Most Challenging Issue" for a reason.

Even within the faith, it takes a lot of work, patience, and struggle for people who all look to the same source of inspiration to cross that racial divide, but because we have that unifying thing in common, and really it's a cardinal principle of our faith that we have to work on this, we all get tossed in together and just are forced to work things out, where much of America, well, you see your coworkers, but really, how much "integration" is there around the breakfast table?

I don't know if I can even describe the difference between what I see within my faith and what I see outside it, but I can tell you the difference is often...striking.

And we Baha'is still have a lot more work to do. It's not like we've even solved this intractable problem among just ourselves.

But there is hope, and yes there has been progress. You can tell a group is coming into its own in our nation by looking at how they move up into the power structures.

You could see it when people like the Kennedy family came into politics, for just one example. I'm sure there are other people here who were aroung when JFK ran for office, and people actually asked the question "Can a Catholic be president?" We would think that is a ridiculous question now, but it was taken seriously then. Now no one bats an eyelash about someone of Irish descent or a Catholic holding high office. It's a nonissue.

Well here we are in 2008, and yeah in some ways it's a repeat of JFK, in that there are still people asking the question "Can a black man be president?" Well yes, I consider that a ridiculous question, but there are still white Americans who think it's as serious a question as the one asked about JFK's faith.

That we've even gotten to this points shows that we have made progress, and just as we got over Catholics and "No Irish Need Apply" so we will get over the divides we have now.

It takes time for these things to happen. I'm speculating of course, but I've always thought the progress was slow simply because some people are not gonna change their ways and honestly the older generation just has to, uh, DIE for progress to continue. This is true not just on racial issues, but issues of religious and cultural prejudice of of any sort.

My children's attitudes are nothing like what I knew at their age. It would not have been acceptable for me to have any friends of a "different" race at that time.

The fact that my children and their friends of other descent are blown away by that fact and just cannot conceive of how that can be so shows that we have made progress indeed.

Patience, listening, compassion, understanding and more patience are the tools we desperately need to solve this problem.

Oh, and we need to be patient with each other too. ;)

And faith. It will happen no matter what obstacles are set in our way.

Let history be our guide and our inspiration. This country has always been about widening the circle of "who is fully human" and I see no reason to think we are going to do an about face any time soon.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
It takes time for these things to happen. I'm speculating of course, but I've always thought the progress was slow simply because some people are not gonna change their ways and honestly the older generation just has to, uh, DIE for progress to continue. This is true not just on racial issues, but issues of religious and cultural prejudice of of any sort.

My children's attitudes are nothing like what I knew at their age. It would not have been acceptable for me to have any friends of a "different" race at that time.

The fact that my children and their friends of other descent are blown away by that fact and just cannot conceive of how that can be so shows that we have made progress indeed.

Patience, listening, compassion, understanding and more patience are the tools we desperately need to solve this problem.

I just want to say I completely agree with all you said and particularly this part..When I was growign up I was never "told" it wasnt "appropriate" to have friends that were of different "race"..We went to school together..(even though it wasnt untill I was older and in Texas I ever saw many Asians or Hispanics)..Anyway liek i said no one "prevented" me ..it was simply we were still sort of "segregated" as far as where we lived..I had no opportunites to just meet a black person in my neighborhood and make friends..The time period Im speaking of was mostly in my elementary up to about 7th grade all during the 70's up till around 81..This today makes me sad.

My children on the other hand had opportunites ..My 25 year olds closest adn dearest friend is black ...He's considered a member of our family..And my 18 year old has many Asian and Hispanic friends..He has had many a crush(LOL) on "non white" girls..My 12 year old is sort of a loner.But when choosing firends "race" is not a consideration whatsoever..And that is the way it should be.

Blessings

Dallas
 

rheff78

I'm your huckleberry.
Booko, I understand what you are saying. So, I am getting the feeling that it's more blacks labeling themselves as African American than it is whites doing it because it sounds nicer.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Im undertanding this as well..And Im sorry if I sounded argumentative or denfensive before.Maybe I feel residual guilt..I dont know..

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Booko, I understand what you are saying. So, I am getting the feeling that it's more blacks labeling themselves as African American than it is whites doing it because it sounds nicer.

On that note?..The reason I refer to my sons best friend as "black" is because he specifically said he is not from Africa.He was bron in the Domincan Republic and moved to the states at around 5 or 6 years old.

Blessings

Dallas
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
kai said:
i am "white" but thats how i was born, the slave trade should be well documented and people should not cherry pick it and leave out african and arab contributions to it , i am afraid your great great great grand mother may very well have been sold by an Afican.

And? There were a whole lot of other people and countries who benefited off of the African Slave trade, but I'm talking about how America played a role. I fail to see how other hands being in the pot in any way absolves the American government for its own part. The slavery of the Africans in America had many facets well beyond unpaid hard labor. There was the whole dehumanization, degradation, humiliation, and outright pure hatred that helped to shape and define what slavery here meant. Believe it or not, black people still suffer from the after effects today, regardless of the fact that those of us living now have never physically endured slavery. We have however been taught slave mentality from generation to generation. What was once learned behaviour for survival sake, became tradition for us. It was normal to be raised in fear/awe/trepidation/dislike-hatred of white people in general. It was normal to feel inadequate around them, or feel unworthy. This goes on today in a more subtle subconscious way. It takes a great effort to realize that type of thinking is backwards and wholly unproductive.

The reason why racism, bigotry, and even the perception of these things is a sore spot for us, is because as a whole we have not fully recuperated from it. A century or so is not enough time to fully heal from something like that. We were taught to be slaves, think like slaves, talk like slaves, act like slaves, and it takes much time to unteach that, and undo it. The wounds of slavery cannot be healed with legislation only. It helps obviously, but the onus is on us blacks to heal ourselves. The biggest problem with that though is that we have not all came to an agreement that we have a problem in the first place.


rheff78 said:
You can still be proud and curious about your heritage (as I am mine) but not cause division by labeling yourself African American, Asian American, etc. We are ALL Americans, and we ALL came from somewhere else.

I guess what I want to know is why should the noting of the difference between races be a source of division in the first place? Why should a person distinguishing themselves as French American bother me? Why should I feel a sense of division because they are saying to the world that yes I am American, but my heritage is French and I love that? It would be my personal problem, and I would have to check myself and ask myself why that makes me feel negatively. I would think that stating the differences between races should be a source of happiness for us. There ARE different races, we DO have differences. We LOOK different, sometimes we ACT different, our CULTURES are different. Yes we are all human beings, but that should go without saying that our treatment of one another should be good generally. I fail to see why distinguishing such things must be a source of division and strife automatically. It is divisive only if we make it so.
 
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