after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an

[Kelvin Davidson]

one, yesterday i discovered that in the qur`an, chapter 11 verse 1 states that the verses are perfected and explained in detail, but all of chapter 111 is clearly about muhammad wanting revenge on his uncle and her wife. the entire message of the qur`an would be benefited without that chapter. how are those perfected verses?

two, even if you believe it's supposed to be hard to understand (which makes no sense because that can cause huge amounts of misinterpretation and chaos), that is still not explanation in detail, therefore it also makes the qur`an imperfect and completely contradicts chapter 11 verse 1.

three, it's as if people thought muhammad's complaints about family were teachings and added it into the qur`an. also, these are things that people believed muhammad said sorted out by people other than muhammad. if this chapter is in there, that further destroys its credibility.

four (as asked on page 6), why are the famous mysterious letters (i.e. alif lam ra) added into the qur`an with no explanation for them? and if they weren't in the actual qur`an, then a huge part of the world has been misguided by this. this contradicts chapter 11 verse 1

there are so many verses in the qur`an that are extremely hard to understand. and if you say it wasn't talking about every verse, then that would make chapter 11 verse 1 contradict even itself.

i do still however follow God. just with no religion.

 

[Sabour]

chapter 111 is clearly about muhammad wanting revenge on his uncle and her wife

I suppose that you came to this conclusion assuming that Muhammad peace be upon him was the author and that he was writing the verses. That is the only explanation that would lead to your conclusion.

The Quraan is revealed through the angel Gabriel to Muhammad peace be upon him. Quraan is the Word of God, not a human, not words of the prophets.

As for two and three, I didn't understand what you were claiming.

 

[firedragon]

one, yesterday i discovered that in the qur`an, chapter 11 verse 1 states that the verses are perfect and explained in detail, but all of chapter 111 is clearly about muhammad wanting revenge on his uncle and her wife. the entire message of the qur`an would be benefited without that chapter. how are those perfected verses?

two, even if you believe it's supposed to be hard to understand (which makes no sense because that can cause huge amounts of misinterpretation and chaos), that is still not explanation in detail, therefore it also makes the qur`an imperfect and completely contradicts chapter 11 verse 1.

three, it's as if people thought muhammad's complaints about family were teachings and added it into the qur`an. also, these are things that people believed muhammad said sorted out by people other than muhammad. if this chapter is in there, that further destroys its credibility.

i do still however follow God. just with no religion.

111:0 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
111:1 Condemned are the hands of the fire maker; condemned.
111:2 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
111:3 He will be sent to a flaming fire.
111:4 And his wife who carries the logs.
111:5 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.

Not about an uncle.

ITs about a fire maker, a person who creates fire and the one who fuels his fire are condemned. Those who spread hate and the helpers.

After being a Muslim for 5 years, if this is your reasoning, its beyond my basic logic.

 

[Kelvin Davidson]

111:0 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
111:1 Condemned are the hands of the fire maker; condemned.
111:2 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
111:3 He will be sent to a flaming fire.
111:4 And his wife who carries the logs.
111:5 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.

Not about an uncle.

ITs about a fire maker, a person who creates fire and the one who fuels his fire are condemned. Those who spread hate and the helpers.

After being a Muslim for 5 years, if this is your reasoning, its beyond my basic logic.

http://quran.com/111
abu lahab is muhammad's uncle

I suppose that you came to this conclusion assuming that Muhammad peace be upon him was the author and that he was writing the verses. That is the only explanation that would lead to your conclusion.

The Quraan is revealed through the angel Gabriel to Muhammad peace be upon him. Quraan is the Word of God, not a human, not words of the prophets.

As for two and three, I didn't understand what you were claiming.

no one wrote the verses except his followers years after he died. we're getting that version of the qur`an. it could consist of anything he said. and this does not debunk the fact that chapter 111 contradicts chapter 11 verse 1

 

[Sabour]

http://quran.com/111
abu lahab is muhammad's uncle


no one wrote the verses except his followers years after he died. we're getting that version of the qur`an. it could consist of anything he said. and this does not debunk the fact that chapter 111 contradicts chapter 11 verse 1

Ummm. no it doesnt

Quraan is the Word of God.

If you want establish that there is a contradiction, you have to prove it based on that assumption even if you don't believe in it.

Chapter 111 condemns abu Lahab and says he will be burned in fire. It will only be a contradiction if abu lahab embraced Islam. And he had 10 years to do so and prove that Quraan is wrong. But he didn't.


DO you think that if Muhammad peace be upon him was writing the Quraan, would he take such a risk by condemning Abu lahab and implying that he will never come a muslim?

This chapter actually shows that Quraan is written by God for only God would now if Abu lahab would accept Islam or not.

 

[Kelvin Davidson]

Ummm. no it doesnt

Quraan is the Word of God.

If you want establish that there is a contradiction, you have to prove it based on that assumption even if you don't believe in it.

Chapter 111 condemns abu Lahab and says he will be burned in fire. It will only be a contradiction if abu lahab embraced Islam. And he had 10 years to do so and prove that Quraan is wrong. But he didn't.


DO you think that if Muhammad peace be upon him was writing the Quraan, would he take such a risk by condemning Abu lahab and implying that he will never come a muslim?

you can't just argue with this saying it's the word of God. chapter 111 is completely unnecessary. countless people will go to hell. why would God have made that chapter about two people in particular? chapter 11 verse 1 implies that we wouldn't even need to debate about verses in the qur`an because they would be perfect and explained in detail. why would God say that and not follow through?

This chapter actually shows that Quraan is written by God for only God would now if Abu lahab would accept Islam or not.

this makes absolutely no sense. God does not write in books. people wrote the qur`an based on what muhammad said (in which even he had difficulty understanding the words of God) years before they started writing it.

 

[Sabour]

chapter 111 is completely unnecessary.

Who said so?

God does not write in books. people wrote the qur`an based on what muhammad said

Which was revealed to him from God through the angel Gabriel. I didn't say that God wrote it in the sense you are implying

 

[Kelvin Davidson]

Who said so?



Which was revealed to him from God through the angel Gabriel. I didn't say that God wrote it in the sense you are implying

people wrote the qur`an based on what they remembered muhammad saying years after he said it, where even muhammad had difficulty hearing what gabriel was saying.

 

[Sabour]

Not about an uncle.

ITs about a fire maker, a person who creates fire and the one who fuels his fire are condemned. Those who spread hate and the helpers.

111: 4
And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.

111: 5

Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.


For who is this verse referring? for the wifes of those who spread hate ?

 

[Sabour]

people wrote the qur`an based on what they remembered muhammad saying years after he said it, where even muhammad had difficulty hearing what gabriel was saying.

They wrote it after they have memorized it by heart and after going to references where some of the verses were written.

Muhammad peace be upon him didn't have a difficulty hearing Gabriel.

 

[DawudTalut]

one, yesterday i discovered that in the qur`an, chapter 11 verse 1 states that the verses are perfect and explained in detail, but all of chapter 111 is clearly about muhammad wanting revenge on his uncle and her wife. the entire message of the qur`an would be benefited without that chapter. how are those perfected verses?

two, even if you believe it's supposed to be hard to understand (which makes no sense because that can cause huge amounts of misinterpretation and chaos), that is still not explanation in detail, therefore it also makes the qur`an imperfect and completely contradicts chapter 11 verse 1.

three, it's as if people thought muhammad's complaints about family were teachings and added it into the qur`an. also, these are things that people believed muhammad said sorted out by people other than muhammad. if this chapter is in there, that further destroys its credibility.

i do still however follow God. just with no religion.

Peace be on you.
If you see the placing of chapter 111, it is clear that it comes just after chapter 110 which is about success of true Islam.

Thus chapter 111 mentions the other part i.e. about the persecutors and their helpers and their wealth, all is mentioned as Abu Lahab, his two hands and his spouse, their wealth and their war apparatus and their failure.

Abu Lahab and people like him stood against early Islam as soon as it came. They did extreme perseuction to poor early Muslims and tried their best to extinguish the divine light sent with Holy Prophet of Islam (s.a.w.).

In Quran, this name is mentioned for dual purpose; as his end and as end of persecutors to Islam in general.

Last chapters also tells about final success of true Islam through Promised Reformer of latter days i.e. Promised Messiah Mahdi [as Ahmadiyya Muslims believe he has come].

 

[firedragon]

abu lahab is muhammad's uncle

It doesnt say Abu Lahab.

no one wrote the verses except his followers years after he died. we're getting that version of the qur`an. it could consist of anything he said. and this does not debunk the fact that chapter 111 contradicts chapter 11 verse 1

11:1 ALR, a Book in which its revelations have been made lawgiving, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Expert.

Before getting into the discussion who wrote the Quran etc, lets take the Quran that you have in hand and please explain how it contradicts with 111.

 

[Kelvin Davidson]

Peace be on you.
If you see the placing of chapter 111, it is clear that it comes just after chapter 110 which is about success of true Islam.

chapters 110 and 111 seem completely unrelated. according to your beliefs, why would you even need to explain what you're saying to someone if the verses are "perfect" and "explained in detail"?

Thus chapter 111 mentions the other part i.e. about the persecutors and their helpers and their wealth, all is mentioned as Abu Lahab, his two hands and his spouse, their wealth and their war apparatus and their failure.

the only verse in chapter 111 that mentions anyone other than abu lahab and his wife is in verse 2 where there is a translation which says "his children," but it's worded like this:
His wealth and his children (etc.) will not benefit him!
http://quran.com/111/2

 

[firedragon]

111: 4
And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.

111: 5

Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.


For who is this verse referring? for the wifes of those who spread hate ?

Nope. The wife who brought logs to the fire.

The kindler and the helper, both are guilty. Thats what it means.

 

[firedragon]

The prophets uncle depicted in the ahadith is called Abdul Mutalib. Not Abu Lahab.

The Quran was written way before the ahadith, thus thinking of understanding the Quran from the view of ahadith is the problem. If you look at the Quran itself, the meaning is Abu = Father, Lahab = is flame. Father of Flame is a term used in classical arabic for a person who provokes. He fathers the flame. Some Quran translations have left this un translated and makes an assertion its somehow the prophets uncle. Thats an assertion, Actually its an interpolation.

Wa Umrahathuhu, and the wife. It doesnt stop there. His wife carrying the logs. The helper in the kindling.

IF I am a Muslim and have a problem with this, I will explore further.

Also, I cant see how this contradicts the chapter 11:1. All I can see in this is that either its just an absurd jump into conclusions, or a big fat lie.

 

[Kelvin Davidson]

The prophets uncle depicted in the ahadith is called Abdul Mutalib. Not Abu Lahab.

abdul muttalib was the prophet's grandfather.

 

[firedragon]

abdul muttalib was the prophet's grandfather.

Oh. apologies for making a mistake, he is abu muttalib.

What does that change?

Let me give his full name. Abd al-Uzza bin Ab al-Muttalib.

Thats all? 5 Years as a Muslim and thats a reason to denounce your faith.

 

[Godobeyer]

abdul muttalib was the prophet's grandfather.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abū_Lahab

 

[Ignorant Philosopher]

one, yesterday i discovered that in the qur`an, chapter 11 verse 1 states that the verses are perfect and explained in detail, but all of chapter 111 is clearly about muhammad wanting revenge on his uncle and her wife. the entire message of the qur`an would be benefited without that chapter. how are those perfected verses?

two, even if you believe it's supposed to be hard to understand (which makes no sense because that can cause huge amounts of misinterpretation and chaos), that is still not explanation in detail, therefore it also makes the qur`an imperfect and completely contradicts chapter 11 verse 1.

three, it's as if people thought muhammad's complaints about family were teachings and added it into the qur`an. also, these are things that people believed muhammad said sorted out by people other than muhammad. if this chapter is in there, that further destroys its credibility.

i do still however follow God. just with no religion.

Can I ask why you currently believe in such a being's existence?

 

[Godobeyer]

Thats all? 5 Years as a Muslim and thats a reason to denounce your faith.

5 years of left Islam for no reason.