Afterlife for Non-Members of your Faith?

[Left Coast]

In Shinto (which I should say I'm not technically a believer in, but rather a member of a shrine), the idea accepted by the Jinja Honcho (Shrine Association) is that when people die, their spirits move onto an 'otherworld' which is a neutral place exactly like the living world, except that it's populated by spirits and kami as well. There are possibly several but none are heaven or hell and its disputed whether you can influence where you go. This will happen to everyone regardless of how much you worshiped the kami or ancestors in your life. You don't have to believe in kami or spirits or any god at all. You just go there, new life, boom.

However I guess you could argue that being a part of Shinto (or rather a family that practices ancestor worship) does matter because it's worship and veneration that allows and ancestor to watch over the family in the living world. So anyone who has family who worship their ancestors may be able to gain power over the living realm in order to protect your family. So, I guess that non-believers will likely never get that chance, so believers and nom-believers don't have an equal experience in the afterlife.

I should say that this really doesn't matter though. In the end, the only difference is whether or not you will get whisked away to the living world to serve the living or not. It's not necessarily a pro or a con unless you have strong feelings about how you'd like to spend your time in the otherworld. Do you want to be useful to your descendants or do you want to retire?

Anyway, this was a fun question to think about!

I've never known a Shinto practitioner on RF! Hi, thanks for being here.

 

[Left Coast]

Saved from what?

See the post I replied to.

 

[Trailblazer]

See the post I replied to.

Do you mean saved from hell, unless we believe that Jesus died for our sins, since because we are all sinners?

 

[stevecanuck]

No, I have not contradicted Qur'an.

What is a "disbeliever" ?
You merely take verses out of context to further your agenda of hate.

A disbeliever is a non-Muslim. The Qur'an spends 6,236 verses driving that point home. And you know it.

 

[Left Coast]

Do you mean saved from hell, unless we believe that Jesus died for our sins, since because we are all sinners?

Generally in Christianity being "saved" means saved from Hell or damnation in the Final Judgement, yes. Though Christians routinely quibble about those things.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Even if the person believes that sincerely?

There seems to be a problem here..

If a person denies sin, it could mean more than one thing.
It could mean that they have decided for themselves what is a sin, and what is not. That in turn could lead us to repeatedly sin without any remorse. That can only lead to disaster.

..or, it could mean that a person denies that there is any such thing as sin.
However, if we use other words, such as "something we shouldn't do", then people might think differently.

..so it depends how far we stray away from morality, as defined by Scripture.
As I say, only Almighty God knows what is in a person's mind.
Almighty God is not petty .. not even a person, as we define.

One thing is for sure. Nobody will suffer in the life hereafter, if they don't deserve to.
..and if you think that nobody deserves to suffer, then why do so many people suffer right now?
Almighty God doesn't want anybody to suffer, but it is part of the reality .. evil is very real .. sometimes it comes from ourself, and sometimes from others.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A disbeliever is a non-Muslim. The Qur'an spends 6,236 verses driving that point home. And you know it.

No. It depends on the context.

Nobody will suffer in hell who doesn't deserve it .. unlike in this life, where many people suffer at the hands of others without deserving it.

It is simply untrue to say that all non-Muslims will go to hell.
The Qur'an tells us that those who are Christians, for example, have their reward.

Nobody will be wronged unjustly in the life hereafter.
People may say that their creed are the only ones to go to heaven etc.
God knows best who is sincere in belief and who is not.
One does not have to be a Jew, Christian or Muslim to go to heaven.

..don't forget, Jesus, peace be with him, said "For the rich man to enter heaven is like the camel passing through the eye of the needle"
That goes for us all, and not just one particular nation/creed.

 

[Left Coast]

There seems to be a problem here..

If a person denies sin, it could mean more than one thing.
It could mean that they have decided for themselves what is a sin, and what is not. That in turn could lead us to repeatedly sin without any remorse. That can only lead to disaster.

Well, it can't only lead to disaster. There are lots of things you probably think are sins that I dont think lead to disaster at all. In fact I think they lead to improvements in our lives.

But in your opinion they lead to disaster, I understand.

One thing is for sure. Nobody will suffer in the life hereafter, if they don't deserve to.
..and if you think that nobody deserves to suffer, then why do so many people suffer right now?

Because life often isn't fair, unfortunately.

 

[syo]

what happens to us after death

We reincarnate. Big deal!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well, it can't only lead to disaster. There are lots of things you probably think are sins that I dont think lead to disaster at all. In fact I think they lead to improvements in our lives.

..and that's where the problem lies.

We all have things that we do that are questionable.
..as Christians will tell you, we are all sinners.
However, if we deny that something is a sin, then it is probably because we want to do it.
..so we will carry on doing it. This affects us spiritually, and we take a path in life which seems to good to us, but we have been warned that there are consequences.

Take marriage, for example.
A society in which marriage is viewed upon as "archaic" leads to social change, and weakens the family and the whole social structure, including govt.
It might look "cool", but our descendants will surely find that it really is not !

It is not disbelief, per se, that we might get punished for .. it is the consequences of our actions .. individually and collectively.
After all, most of us do not fare well by ourselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

We reincarnate. Big deal!

It would be a big deal if we died and had to come back to this dust heap of a mortal world....
a big bad deal!

 

[Trailblazer]

Because life often isn't fair, unfortunately.

Tell me about it.

 

[The Hammer]

Reincarnation all around.

 

[JDMS]

I've never known a Shinto practitioner on RF! Hi, thanks for being here.

Yeah.... not very surprising unfortunately
Most Shinto practioners live in Japan (I could count the number of true Shinto shrines that exist outside of Japan on two hands) and most of us Japanese folk don't take Shinto literally anyway. It's more of a way of life or philosophy than it is a religion for most people. The exception being those who are involved in maintaining the shrines, like priests. That's why most practitioners wouldn't say that their religion is "Shinto" at all.

 

[The Hammer]

It would be a big deal if we died and had to come back to this dust heap of a mortal world....
a big bad deal!

I don't think so. I happen to like this dust heap.

 

[Left Coast]

..and that's where the problem lies.

We all have things that we do that are questionable.
..as Christians will tell you, we are all sinners.
However, if we deny that something is a sin, then it is probably because we want to do it.

No, I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't want to smoke pot, but I don't think it's immoral. I don't want an abortion, but I also don't think that's immoral either.

It's very easy to blame people as somehow selfish because they don't buy into a religion's ridiculous moral systems. But it doesn't actually describe what's going on well.

Take marriage, for example.
A society in which marriage is viewed upon as "archaic" leads to social change, and weakens the family and the whole social structure, including govt.
It might look "cool", but our descendants will surely find that it really is not !

I don't know of any society on the planet where all marriage is looked at universally as "archaic." What's happened is, the nature of marriage has changed. It is a much more egalitarian and voluntary decision now. Whereas in the past it was often a) financially necessary b) socially pressured. We've also opened marriage to same sex couples, because there's no rational reason not to. So those things are positive changes that have not led us to disaster. Fear is a powerful motivator that fundamentalist religions use to keep people in line. But it's often not grounded in fact or reason.

 

[osgart]

In my afterlife there is neither heaven nor hell. The eternal source reality is the same for everyone. All shall lose their attachments to the physical realm. The mystery is what exactly is the afterlife like. We are veiled from the infinite and eternal. I do think it's a platonic realm with life merely a part of the whole of it.

Heaven and hell is in the heart, and no such places exist.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't know of any society on the planet where all marriage is looked at universally as "archaic." What's happened is, the nature of marriage has changed. It is a much more egalitarian and voluntary decision now. Whereas in the past it was often a) financially necessary b) socially pressured. We've also opened marriage to same sex couples, because there's no rational reason not to. So those things are positive changes that have not led us to disaster. Fear is a powerful motivator that fundamentalist religions use to keep people in line. But it's often not grounded in fact or reason.

..and this is the difference between belief and disbelief.
I believe that Almighty God is guiding me aright, whereas you embrace the "new world order" and see religion as "controlling".

I have said in a previous post that it is not the case that disbelievers cannot go to heaven, but it is their actions [and intentions] that will decide.

In other words, when It is said that God might send somebody to hell,
it is not through pettiness, but the result of their own deeds, because they scoffed and ignored the guidance.
Almighty God wrongs nobody .. we wrong ourselves, but don't perceive.
C'est la vie!

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think so. I happen to like this dust heap.

To each his or her own. I think it all depends upon our experience of it. It also depends upon our conception of what the next world will be like in comparison.

 

[Left Coast]

..and this is the difference between belief and disbelief.
I believe that Almighty God is guiding me aright, whereas you embrace the "new world order" and see religion as "controlling".

Sorry, but that's incorrect. I don't even know what you mean by "new world order." And I specifically indicated that fundamentalist religions are controlling. Which...they are. I've been in one. All religions aren't like that though.

I have said in a previous post that it is not the case that disbelievers cannot go to heaven, but it is their actions [and intentions] that will decide.

In other words, when It is said that God might send somebody to hell,
it is not through pettiness, but the result of their own deeds, because they scoffed and ignored the guidance.
Almighty God wrongs nobody .. we wrong ourselves, but don't perceive.
C'est la vie!

Well wait a minute. God's "guidance," according to you, is that we should become Muslims and follow Islam, isn't it? So if I don't do that, how can I go to heaven? I know what your religion teaches I should do, and I'm not doing it because I don't see a rational reason to do so. Am I going to hell?