against intelligent creator?

[A Vestigial Mote]

it seems to me absurd that lifeless, mindless matter can produce sentient life. I don't consider that plausible.

And yet lifeless, mindless matter forms the entire container that houses the very essence of what we humans believe that we are. Not to mention the fact that matter is constantly forming new relationships with other matter at all times, constantly throughout the entire universe without the need for intervention by any form of intelligence or "life." "Lifeless" matter always has done and always will do far, far more to affect the universe at large. "Life" is such a small, nearly insignificant part of it all that it is a wonder to me that we life-forms seem to find ourselves so very important.

 

[suncowiam]

Instead of whining about what I do, improve your own credibility by posting some evidence to prove what you say. Unless you do that you have no credibility.

I never asserted anything true or false about religion, hence, the word hypothetical. But you asserted it's not hypothetical from a Christian's view, so feel free to prove it. I'll be here.

Getting a little personal now, eh? You perceive whatever you want.

 

[suncowiam]

It is not perceived. Some of it is exhibited in this form. There are also organzations (aclu) that are actively trying to eliminate all references to Christianity out of public life.

Fundamentalist don't try to restrict people's rights, but the aclu does.

Maybe you're referring to secularists who want separation from state and religion. I for one am fine with theists expressing themselves but until they prove their concepts, then it shouldn't be mandated to the whole community.

 

[Polymath257]

IMO most atheist don't want to admit the existence of God. If He real, they will have to change their conduct.

I, for one, would not change my conduct if a deity exists. Why would I?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First of all I have a written record. Second feeling can be deceptive, making them unreliable.

Do you trust your own feelings that god exists and your purpose in him?

Why would other people's feelings be deceptive but others are not?

That depends on if it is true or not. Did it come from God or from me?

Regardless if god exists or not, it only applies to those who follow him. Making it apply to all people is not an action of love at all.

My purpose is to believe God.

"Your" purpose?

That means god has nothing to do with your choice to believe in him?

In my humble opinion, that sounds more like ego.

I remember years ago I talked in a chat room. One guy said he rather be a slave to god rather than not be with god at all. It made me think. Why are some believers reluctant to 100 percent submit to god? Is freedom of choice so powerful that you get punished for making the freedom of choice but feel like a robot (but a child in god's eyes) when you don't take it?

How do you know it was the Spirit of Christ?

The sacraments of Christ are not sacraments unless they have the spirit of christ in them to make them such. You can't (in my opinion) pray the Sinner's Prayer and wala! You experienced christ. It's a lifelong journey. However, if you want to open the door, you have to understand and participate in christ's teachings first before commitment to it.

I know there is a God. The heavens are declaring His glory.

You are stating this as a fact but then undermine me when I state what I know is a fact. You said no one knows for sure yet in this statement, you said you know.

You seem to not beleive in One that does exist.

I know god does not exist. We can use believe, if you like. Though, you feel you know god does exist why use believe when you know something for sure and you feel it can be substantiated just as well as I feel my position can too?

How do you know this if he may not exist?

There is a broken quote at the bottom so I don't know what this refers to.

And your belief that He does not exist are opinions and beliefs, not facts.

If you want to say it that way, your beliefs are not facts either. It's a level playing field, here. Though, I can show god does not exist as a separate entity. It's not "apparent" in nature nor synchronized as such. Your belief in god is shaped by other people's culture, traditions, and environment. It's all based on the human's desire to find a pattern or purpose in life (or however they define it).

Maslow showed it on his Hierarchy of needs:

The culture and traditions that wrap up these things can be dependent on an "other" that the full community can attribute their gratitude to someone apart from themselves (taking away ego). In other cases, the "other" is within the person and everything. That sense of "being everywhere"

that loving and belonging, etc is a part of human nature. It's not magical or anything like that. Nothing that needs scripture for us to see it as common sense.

If god exists, explain who god is apart from people and environment.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Instead of whining about what I do, improve your own credibility by posting some evidence to prove what you say. Unless you do that you have no credibility.

I have to interject. Follow this logic here. It's very simple, not religious at all. Like two and two is four not five, type of thing. Below has no comparisons or analogies.

1. If you held out your hand with a pencil on its palm. You cover your hand so no one can see the pencil.

2. I tell you (since I haven't see what's in your hand), the pencil does not exist.

3. You tell me, it does because it's in your hand.

So, out of curiousity, I question you. Let me see because I don't believe it's in your hands.

Then you say

4. Prove it's not in my hands.

I'm taken aback. Wait! I said the pencil does not exist.

How can you prove that something does not exist when it does not exist to begin with?

5. First you need to give us your statement (open your hand) then we can discuss whether the pencil is there or its an illusion.

6. Until then, basically, you're telling us to prove an non-existent thing.

Does that at all make sense to you?

Take out religion and god

Does the logic make sense?

Asking to prove something does not exist from something that does not exist.

 

[Valjean]

Jesus' policies are not socialistic.

He advocated holding all things in common, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick. He denounced the social classes -- neither Greek nor Roman, Jew or Gentile -- and proclaimed a universal brotherhood. He denounced the 1% and advocated giving away one's wealth.

Face it -- the man was a hippie.

 

[osgart]

And yet lifeless, mindless matter forms the entire container that houses the very essence of what we humans believe that we are. Not to mention the fact that matter is constantly forming new relationships with other matter at all times, constantly throughout the entire universe without the need for intervention by any form of intelligence or "life." "Lifeless" matter always has done and always will do far, far more to affect the universe at large. "Life" is such a small, nearly insignificant part of it all that it is a wonder to me that we life-forms seem to find ourselves so very important.

that's an assertion, and assumption.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

that's an assertion, and assumption.

Which part? Hopefully you only mean the part where I state that what we consider our "selves" is contained entirely in the matter we are made up of - because that is really the only place where any form of "doubt" even has a leg to stand on.

Matter DOES form relationships with other matter, on its own, at all times, throughout the entire universe. Fact. Even if God exists, He apparently designed the universe such that He needn't be present at all for things to go on about their business.

Lifeless matter does do more "work" throughout the universe than matter imbued with life can ever hope to do. Ever. Fact. One star has done more to affect the universe than all life on Earth will likely ever accomplish. A ridiculous amount more than we have done so far ourselves.

Even if a million planets out there contain life, the vastness of space and the amount of matter present within it to form all those galaxies, huge stars and other forms out there puts the matter involved in life processes at an infinitesimally small percentage of overall matter. So small it would hardly be worth consideration from a statistical analysis perspective. Fact.

 

[Darkstorn]

I have admitted I can't prove the existence of God.

No irony. There is proof that God exist, you just don't accept it.

Wait... You actually say these two contradictory things in the exact same post? So, which one is it? No proof, or proof? If there's proof, where is it?

 

[LuisDantas]

I, for one, would not change my conduct if a deity exists. Why would I?

Same here.

 

[Father Heathen]

WE are not saved by how we treat people. We are saved by what we believe about Jesus. Once we are saved, we are required to treat people, all people, with respect. Those you call self appointed middlemen are not self appointed. They are called by God to minister to the spiritual needs of people. The good ones don't presume to speak for God, they simply teach what the Bible says.

See, this is exactly what I meant by blind, unquestioning adherence to irrational, unsubstantiated, and arbitrary assertions made up by self-appointed middlemen who presumed to speak on god's behalf. The bible was just one of many of man's attempt to perform a ventriloquist act with god, placing their own words in his mouth.
If there is a god, such a being would be of pure love and pure logic, therefore anything devoid of either compassion or reason cannot be of god. Why would he gift us with intelligence only to expect us to forgo its use?

 

[Father Heathen]

It is not perceived. Some of it is exhibited in this form. There are also organzations (aclu) that are actively trying to eliminate all references to Christianity out of public life.

Fundamentalist don't try to restrict people's rights, but the aclu does.

No, you have it backwards. The ACLU defends attacks upon people's rights and freedoms. No one is trying to remove all reference to Christianity out of public life, only in cases where government violates the the separation of church and state. The government is supposed to represent all citizens, which mean that it shouldn't be favoring or advocating for any faith above another. How would you feel if your tax dollars were used to buy Korans to distribute in public schools?

And fundamentalists most certainly do try to restrict people's rights, specifically LGBT rights and women's rights.

 

[omega2xx]

I honestly do not believe God exists. I believe wholeheartedly that He does not exist. He's not there. Not looking down, not casting judgment, not tweaking His creation or putting His hand to any "work" being done anywhere in the whole of the universe. HE ISN'T THERE. This is what I believe. This is what I accept as the truth about "God." He is mythology, falsehood, the hope of people who otherwise lack the ability to cope with an indifferent/unforgiving reality. Nothing more. I accept His non-existence as FACT.

I honestly do not believe God exists. I believe wholeheartedly that He does not exist. He's not there. Not looking down, not casting judgment, not tweaking His creation or putting His hand to any "work" being done anywhere in the whole of the universe. HE ISN'T THERE. This is what I believe. This is what I accept as the truth about "God." He is mythology, falsehood, the hope of people who otherwise lack the ability to cope with an indifferent/unforgiving reality. Nothing more. I accept His non-existence as FACT.

I don't need God to stick to my principles of conduct. Do you?

How do you know your principles are right? Do you ever violated your principles

If so what are teh consequences?

 

[omega2xx]

I never asserted anything true or false about religion, hence, the word hypothetical. But you asserted it's not hypothetical from a Christian's view, so feel free to prove it. I'll be here.

Getting a little personal now, eh? You perceive whatever you want.

Spiritual principles can't be proved/disproved. They must be accepted by faith alone.

 

[omega2xx]

Maybe you're referring to secularists who want separation from state and religion. I for one am fine with theists expressing themselves but until they prove their concepts, then it shouldn't be mandated to the whole community.

Not only is it not mandated, it is against the constitution to mix church and state. That is a good thing and I hope all Christians realize that.

 

[omega2xx]

I, for one, would not change my conduct if a deity exists. Why would I?

Because your standard of conduct may not be right and there is a penalty for sin.

 

[omega2xx]

Do you trust your own feelings that god exists and your purpose in him?

No I trust what God says in His word.

Why would other people's feelings be deceptive but others are not?

All feelings ae not deceptive. It is just hard, if not impossible to know if a feeling comes fro the Holy Spirit or from self.

Regardless if god exists or not, it only applies to those who follow him. Making it apply to all people is not an action of love at all.

God has rules and there is a penalty for breaking them The loving thing is to tell them what God requires. To not tell them would not be lovsing them.

"Your" purpose?

To glorify God.

That means god has nothing to do with your choice to believe in him?

There are words that say He does: predestination---called---adopted---chosen

In my humble opinion, that sounds more like ego.

It is not in my case.

I remember years ago I talked in a chat room. One guy said he rather be a slave to god rather than not be with god at all. It made me think. Why are some believers reluctant to 100 percent submit to god? Is freedom of choice so powerful that you get punished for making the freedom of choice but feel like a robot (but a child in god's eyes) when you don't take it?

One goal of conservative Christianity is to be 100% submissive to God and to His will.

The sacraments of Christ are not sacraments unless they have the spirit of christ in them to make them such.

Agreed.

You can't (in my opinion) pray the Sinner's Prayer and wala! You experienced christ. It's a lifelong journey. However, if you want to open the door, you have to understand and participate in christ's teachings first before commitment to it.

It is not the prayer that saves, it is the motive of the one praying. If they are sincere, that is all that is necessary for salvation.

You are stating this as a fact but then undermine me when I state what I know is a fact. You said no one knows for sure yet in this statement, you said you know.

I know what the Bible says; I know what I have done, I know I am saved(I Jn 5:13)

I know god does not exist. We can use believe, if you like. Though, you feel you know god does exist why use believe when you know something for sure and you feel it can be substantiated just as well as I feel my position can too?

You do not know God doe snot exists. That can't be known.

There is a broken quote at the bottom so I don't know what this refers to.

If you want to say it that way, your beliefs are not facts either.

The are facts unless you can prove they are not.

It's a level playing field, here.

Not if the Bib le is tdrue.

Though, I can show god does not exist as a separate entity.

Noo you can't.

It's not "apparent" in nature nor synchronized as such. Your belief in god is shaped by other people's culture, traditions, and environment. It's all based on the human's desire to find a pattern or purpose in life (or however they define it).

Not true, God inspired word is the only thing that shapes my life.

Maslow showed it on his Hierarchy of needs:

The culture and traditions that wrap up these things can be dependent on an "other" that the full community can attribute their gratitude to someone apart from themselves (taking away ego). In other cases, the "other" is within the person and everything. That sense of "being everywhere"

that loving and belonging, etc is a part of human nature. It's not magical or anything like that. Nothing that needs scripture for us to see it as common sense.

If you want to put your faith in Maslow, be my guest. I don't need him

If god exists, explain who god is apart from people and environment.

God is the great Creator, who love everyone.

 

[omega2xx]

I have to interject. Follow this logic here. It's very simple, not religious at all. Like two and two is four not five, type of thing. Below has no comparisons or analogies.

1. If you held out your hand with a pencil on its palm. You cover your hand so no one can see the pencil.

2. I tell you (since I haven't see what's in your hand), the pencil does not exist.

3. You tell me, it does because it's in your hand.

So, out of curiousity, I question you. Let me see because I don't believe it's in your hands.

Then you say

4. Prove it's not in my hands.

I'm taken aback. Wait! I said the pencil does not exist.

How can you prove that something does not exist when it does not exist to begin with?

5. First you need to give us your statement (open your hand) then we can discuss whether the pencil is there or its an illusion.

6. Until then, basically, you're telling us to prove an non-existent thing.

Does that at all make sense to you?

Take out religion and god

Does the logic make sense?

Asking to prove something does not exist from something that does not exist.

No.

 

[Father Heathen]

I have admitted I can't prove the existence of God. Will you admit you can't prove He does not exist?

Not only will I admit that I can't prove that god doesn't exist, I in fact accept the possibility that there is a god. However, the burden of proof falls upon whoever makes the positive assertion.

aNo irony. There is proof that God exist, you just don't accept it. The heavens are telling of the glory of God. You can't have a creation without a Creator.

By all means, share it.

You can't wave the magic wand of evolution and have matter, energy and life just pop into existence and you have no other explanation, let alone a scientific one.

But that isn't even what the theory of evolution is about. However, that aside, god couldn't have just popped into existence either, but if you say he was here forever then so too could've the universe.
Besides, it could be said that evolution, abiogenesis, "big bang", etc. were the methods used by god, so it's a moot point.

I have been asking for months for one of you evo to cut and past some evidence from a link that I can evaluate. To date not one has accepted my challenge. Would you like to be the first or will you run and hide like the rest of them have. Don't forget to cover your ears and yell as loud as you can"It ain't so, it ain't so.

How about starting with the FAQ threads that have been stickied in the Evolution Vs. Creationism sub-forum for years?

Evidently you don't eve understand the fossil record. Your greatest evangelist of the fossil record, Stephen Gould, says, I regard the failure to find a clear 'vector of progress' in life's history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record... we have sought to impose a pattern that we hoped to find on a world that does not really display it.

Is he right or wrong?

Quote Mine Project: Gould, Eldredge and Punctuated Equilibria Quotes Scroll down to Quote #3.12