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Age of the Earth.

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Then again I ask, why was it placed in the Evolution V creationism section and not put into the science section?

Because the age of the Earth is a key point in both evolutionary theory and Young Earth Creationism. If the Earth is young, then evolution would have been impossible. If the Earth is old, then Young Earth Creationism is incorrect.

Correct, [snip]

Okay, then. That's all I wanted to know.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Maybe you still need to go back and review what is real and not, especially if you buy into the evolution fairytale.

Nice bluster. Do you have any actual evidence to present against the theory of evolution? Or do you have any evidence in favour of an alternative idea? Have you looked at any of the overwhelming evidence in favour of evolution? Do you have any intelligent comments to make about the evidence supporting evolution?

If you have any evidence I would love to see it, but if all you have is bluster I just have to laugh.
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
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Because the age of the Earth is a key point in both evolutionary theory and Young Earth Creationism. If the Earth is young, then evolution would have been impossible. If the Earth is old, then Young Earth Creationism is incorrect.

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Okay, then. That's all I wanted to know.

But on the same token, If evolutionists beleive that all the complex life forms that exist today, had evolved in a mere 4,567 billion years, they've got rocks in their heads.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
But on the same token, If evolutionists beleive that all the complex life forms that exist today, had evolved in a mere 4,567 billion years, they've got rocks in their heads.
As opposed to a magical "poof" 10,000 years ago?
BTW, perhaps you would do better to actually understand the processes of evolutionary biology before condemning those who rely on facts rather than faith as having "rocks in their heads".
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
But on the same token, If evolutionists beleive that all the complex life forms that exist today, had evolved in a mere 4,567 billion years, they've got rocks in their heads.

Are you basing this statement on your mastery of statistical probability (which you have so clearly demonstrated), or your dogmatic faith in the innerancy of your religious beliefs?

Either way, I promise none of us will be surprised.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
But on the same token, If evolutionists beleive that all the complex life forms that exist today, had evolved in a mere 4,567 billion years, they've got rocks in their heads.

Actually, life started on earth at most a billion years ago, with multicellular life taking off around a half a billion years ago. Actually, evolution happens fairly quickly on a geologic scale if conditions are right.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
But on the same token, If evolutionists beleive that all the complex life forms that exist today, had evolved in a mere 4,567 billion years, they've got rocks in their heads.
Pssst.....nobody tell S-word that the earth is a bit younger than that.... :p
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
But on the same token, If evolutionists beleive that all the complex life forms that exist today, had evolved in a mere 4,567 billion years, they've got rocks in their heads.

Do you have some math to show this is not possible?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Pssst.....nobody tell S-word that the earth is a bit younger than that.... :p

Come on, Jose. He's just being coy. He understands the difference between a comma and a period. What he doesn't understand is the difference between rational thought and blind faith.
Don't gang up too much on S-Word. They use a comma where we use a decimal point plenty of places... most of Europe, for instance.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Don't gang up too much on S-Word. They use a comma where we use a decimal point plenty of places... most of Europe, for instance.

I thought about that. I may be wrong, but the way I read most of S-word's posts, he seems to be from the USA.

Then again, I do have trouble reading most of his posts all the way through.
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
I thought about that. I may be wrong, but the way I read most of S-word's posts, he seems to be from the USA.

Then again, I do have trouble reading most of his posts all the way through.

Australia matey, north Queensland, and clearing up the mess from last nights cyclone, I would have thought that being the straw man who goes out in search of a brain, you would have had trouble reading anything at all, let alone my posts..
 
Last edited:

Half Asleep

Crazy-go-nuts
Australia matey, north Queensland, and clearing up the mess from last nights cyclone, I would have thought that being the straw man who goes out in search of a brain, you would have had trouble reading anything at all, let alone my posts..

Feisty!

: hamster :: hamster :: hamster :
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Australia matey, north Queensland, and clearing up the mess from last nights cyclone, I would have thought that being the straw man who goes out in search of a brain, you would have had trouble reading anything at all, let alone my posts..

My mistake, S-word. I should have been more clear. It isn't that I can't read your posts - it's that I choose not to finish them. I get started, but usually by the halfway point, I realize that I can just go to the "Answers in Genesis" website and cut out the middle man.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Actually, life started on earth at most a billion years ago, with multicellular life taking off around a half a billion years ago. Actually, evolution happens fairly quickly on a geologic scale if conditions are right.
Not to quibble but life started over 3.5 billion years ago.

wa:do
 

RedOne77

Active Member
fantôme profane;1927247 said:
Nice bluster. Do you have any actual evidence to present against the theory of evolution? Or do you have any evidence in favour of an alternative idea? Have you looked at any of the overwhelming evidence in favour of evolution? Do you have any intelligent comments to make about the evidence supporting evolution?

If you have any evidence I would love to see it, but if all you have is bluster I just have to laugh.

Unfortunately not today. I've been busy with schoolwork recently and I don't have as much time as I would like. And yes, I have looked at much of the "overwhelming" evidence for evolution. I am by no means an expert, but I think I understand it well enough.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Unfortunately not today. I've been busy with schoolwork recently and I don't have as much time as I would like. And yes, I have looked at much of the "overwhelming" evidence for evolution. I am by no means an expert, but I think I understand it well enough.
If you have any questions, I'm a biology student and working evolutionary biologist (currently doing research on population genetics in the American Horseshoe Crab) let me know. I'd be happy to fill in any blanks or explain any aspects of evolution you may have questions about.

I find that the problem many people have with evolution is simple misunderstandings of what the theory actually covers and how it works. (Even supporters of evolution often have questions, it is a very complex theory)

wa:do
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate
I'd be happy to fill in any blanks or explain any aspects of evolution you may have questions about.
I hope i'm not completely derailing the thread, but i have one i always wondered about. How did sexual reproduction develop? How did we end up with two sexes, y'know?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
RedOne77 said:
Radiometric dating assumes that the sample had X amount of parent to daughter ratio, and that the sample didn't gain or lose any amount of the two elements. I have yet to see any solid evidence or reason why scientists accept they know these axioms to be true. Could you possibly explain this to me?

Surely experts who disagree with you would be happy to discuss that with you if you wish. You might be able to contact Dr. Roger Wiens at [email protected]. He is a Christian. He believes that the earth is old. Consider the following:

Radiometric Dating

asa3.org said:
Dr. Wiens has a PhD in Physics, with a minor in Geology. His PhD thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites, including surface exposure dating. He was employed at Caltech's Division of Geological & Planetary Sciences at the time of writing the first edition. He is presently employed in the Space & Atmospheric Sciences Group at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.

First edition 1994; revised version 2002 [by Dr. Wiens]

Radiometric dating--the process of determining the age of rocks from the decay of their radioactive elements--has been in widespread use for over half a century. There are over forty such techniques, each using a different radioactive element or a different way of measuring them. It has become increasingly clear that these radiometric dating techniques agree with each other and as a whole, present a coherent picture in which the Earth was created a very long time ago. Further evidence comes from the complete agreement between radiometric dates and other dating methods such as counting tree rings or glacier ice core layers. Many Christians have been led to distrust radiometric dating and are completely unaware of the great number of laboratory measurements that have shown these methods to be consistent. Many are also unaware that Bible-believing Christians are among those actively involved in radiometric dating. This paper describes in relatively simple terms how a number of the dating techniques work, how accurately the half-lives of the radioactive elements and the rock dates themselves are known, and how dates are checked with one another. In the process the paper refutes a number of misconceptions prevalent among Christians today. This paper is available on the web via the American Scientific Affiliation and related sites to promote greater understanding and wisdom on this issue, particularly within the Christian community.


Dr. Hugh Ross, Ph.D., astronomy, is another Christian who believes that the earth is old. Consider the following from one of Dr. Ross' websites:

Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective | Reasons To Believe

reasons.org said:

That is quite a distinguished group of Christians. Where do you suppose they went wrong?

Dr. Ross and many other Christian experts have lots of reasons other than radiometric dating for believing that the earth is old.

I assume that the main reason why some people believe that the earth is young is inerrancy, not science.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
RedOne77 said:
I am willing to learn what I can, just be aware that beating me here says absolutely nothing about their validity, only that you can convince an ignorant creationist to conform to your paradigm.

The same goes for people who disagree with you.

The vast majority of people in the world do not know enough about science to properly evaluate the age of the earth. They can either accept the opinions of a sizeable consensus of experts that includes many experts who are religious, or a very small group of experts, most of whom, or all of whom are inerrantists.

Dr. Hugh Ross, Ph.D., astronomy, is a Christian. He believes that the earth is old. Consider the following:

AVOIDING A DANGEROUS TRAP | Reasons To Believe

Dr. Hugh Ross said:
Avoiding a dangerous trap

Have you ever wondered why most Christian astronomers reject a young-universe interpretation of Genesis? The answer has to do with Scripture and theology, as well as with science. In my book Creation and Time (not to be confused with the book by the same title subsequently produced by Van Bebber and Taylor), I state that the rules of biblical exegesis support long creation days, an old earth, and an even older universe.' If the creation periods are interpreted as six consecutive 24-hour days, other books of the Bible and other chapters of Genesis become contradictory.

Basic tenets of Christian theology also support the long-day, old-earth, older-universe view. While this issue draws less attention than the day issue, it is nonetheless significant: a recent creation date for the earth and the cosmos forces us into the gnostic-like belief that the physical realm is illusory and only the spiritual realm, real.2 However, Earth by the observed principles of planet and crust formation and the universe by its very size argue against creation dates only thousands of years ago.

In the case of the universe, the problem arises from the facts about light, which takes a specific amount of time to travel a certain distance. For example, a galaxy measured to be about 13 billion light years away must have existed about 13 billion years ago. That's when the light from that galaxy started on its way to Earth's telescopes. In fact, the visible universe would be very small indeed if its light had existed for only a few thousand years. Under the laws of physics, visible stars would be less numerous than is the case, and most of the Milky Way galaxy (as well as every other galaxy) would be invisible, being too far away for their light to have yet reached Earth.

Light travel time means that astronomers have a direct window to the past. What God did to the cosmos in the past can be observed at the present moment. Astronomers need only select a heavenly body the appropriate distance away. Even as we look at the moon, we see it not as it is this second but rather as it was 1.5 seconds ago when the sun's light bounced off it on its way to us.

A few young-earth creationists explicitly concede that their view denies the reality of light travel. Gary North, a well known reconstructionist writer says, "The Bible's account of the chronology of creation points to an illusion. …The seeming age of the stars is an illusion. …Either the constancy of the speed of light is an illusion, or the size of the universe is an illusion, or else the physical events that we hypothesize to explain the visible changes in light or radiation are false inferences."3

Others see light travel time as part of a myth concocted and disseminated by the astrophysical community, a deliberate lie religiously embraced and zealously perpetrated on others. Russell Akridge, in addressing the 1982 Annual Creation Convention, made this claim: "Astrophysicists and astronomers have become the high priests of this decades-old cult.... [As] persuasive speakers [they] have deceived an unsuspecting public."4

.......I asked three university professors (a particle physicist, a string theorist, and a specialist in general relativity) and a doctoral candidate in a relevant field of astronomy (at M.I.T.) to review Humphreys' book. All four joined me in asking Humphreys to withdraw the book because it violates both the observational and theoretical evidence for time's cosmic constancy.

After only a few months of written exchange between this group and Humphreys, the latter refused to continue the exchange. At that point the Creation Ex Nibilo Technical Journal (a leading young earth publication) offered to provide a forum for debate. The August 1998 issue included an article exposing the fatal flaws in Humphreys' hypothesis.9 In his response, Humphreys refused to acknowledge any serious errors or problems.10 He did, however, offer to "adjust" his model. His adjustment, couched in highly technical language, merely represents a shift from the sixth supposed loophole back to the fifth. In addition, his new claims are demonstratably (mathematically) false. They do not follow from the physics equations he employs to justify them.

Ironically, the same body of evidence closes both. Specifically, God has scattered astronomical "clocks," time-bound astronomical phenomena (e.g., supernovae, Cepheid variable stars, neutron stars, black holes, etc.), throughout the universe, and they all agree. They do not reflect differences of rate or dimensionality.
A decisive rebuttal to Humphreys' response has been submitted to Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal, but it has not yet been scheduled for publication. Readers interested in a general discussion of the problems in Humphreys' latest proposal may obtain an article on this subject from the RTB office, or search for the following tile on our website: The Unraveling of Starlight and Time (ref 11). A highly technical analysis is in preparation as is an elegant theorem showing that, if general relativity is true and the universe is not an illusion, then the creation date is necessarily billions of years ago.

Humphreys' and other 24-hour-day creationists' interpretation of Genesis inadvertently leads to the suggestion that God is the one who deceives. It leads to the conclusion that all the distant galaxies astronomers observe, nearly one trillion of them, are part of an elaborate mirage or a misunderstood "mural'' painted on a nearby black background. Stellar explosions such as the 1987 supernova eruption in our companion galaxy, the Large Magellanic Cloud, did not really occur, it just appears to have occurred. What astronomers observe in the heavens must be, according to their view, a detailed history of events that never happened.

A Biblical basis for "appearance of age" does not exist. Adam's adult body at the time of his creation would testify of age only if we made the incorrect assumption that he entered the world through the womb of a woman. We may also ask: What memories of his childhood and youth would he have had? Would God have created Adam with memories of events that had never taken place? It is difficult to see how such a creation would not make God a deceiver of Adam, building into his body inescapable impressions of the reality of events which in fact never occurred. The universe also has a kind of "memory" of the past; it is the light emitted long ago by distant objects that shows us what was happening at those objects at the time this light was emitted. "Appearance of age" has God filling virtually the entire universe with the physical equivalent of false memories.12

From a logic standpoint, appearance of age represents what is called a non-falsifiable proposition. It cannot be proved or disproved. Taken to its logical conclusion, the hypothesis would imply that we cannot be sure of our own or anyone else's past existence. We could have been created just a few hours ago with implanted scars, memories, progeny, photographs, material possessions, liver spots, and hardening of the arteries to make us appear and feel older than we really are. In this case, even biblical history would be an illusion.

On the assumption that they truly desire to be defenders of the truth of God's word and evangelists for Jesus Christ, young earth/young-universe creationists probably do not realize the theological implications of their position. I think they would repudiate the cultic notion that, "there is no life, truth, or substance in matter,"13 though unfortunately, that's the direction in which their view leans. According to the Apostle Paul, it's a dangerous direction (see Colossians 1 and 2 especially).

Romans 3:4 says "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Thus, under the guise of scientific research, inerrantists assume their conclusions prior to conducting any research. It makes a mockery of science for inerrantists to use science only when it agrees with the Bible.
 
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