Age of the Earth.

[The Voice of Reason]

I also believe that the devil can physically change our genes, to make it look like evolution occurred ...

Well, that concludes today's broadcast. We'd like to thank our viewers for watching, and remember - we'll return to the air at 6 AM, with the Pat Robertson invocation for the day.

 

[JustWondering2]

Oh NO! The Devil made me do it! :thud:

What a cop out. How many times have we heard "good christians" use that excuse for their behavior? The Devil NEVER made me do anything!

 

[fantome profane]

I also believe that the devil can physically change our genes, to make it look like evolution occurred. After all, evolution is a great tool to evangelize the masses to atheism and or reject the word of God.

I hope you don’t expect this idea to be taken seriously in a scientific context. With all due respect (and frankly it is very difficult not to mock this idea) you have just removed any hypothesis you may present from scientific consideration.

Are you familiar with the Flying Spaghetti Monster? I quote for you from the original letter to the Kansas School Board.

…a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage.

This is in fact exactly what you are proposing. If you don’t like the results of radiometric dating, no problem – the devil did it. Don’t like the evidence from varves and the like, don’t worry about it – the devil did it. Don’t like the genetic evidence --> :devil:

Can you give me a reason why anyone should take this idea seriously? Is there any reason your suggestion is any less absurd than the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Perhaps we could put warning stickers on biology textbooks warning students that any evidence supporting evolution could be the work of the devil. Is that something you would recommend?

And of course the earth doesn’t really revolve around the sun that is just the devil hypnotizing space travelers to make them think that it does. Viruses do not cause disease; it is only the devil that makes us think they do. There is literally nothing in science that cannot be explained by the intervention of a deceptive devil (or a deceptive deity).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is in fact exactly what you are proposing. If you don’t like the results of radiometric dating, no problem – the devil did it. Don’t like the evidence from varves and the like, don’t worry about it – the devil did it. Don’t like the genetic evidence --> :devil:

But the thing that really strikes me is that it would apply universally. If I don't like the idea that Jesus actually existed, for instance, that's okay: it was the Devil who wrote the Gospels.

 

[fantome profane]

But the thing that really strikes me is that it would apply universally. If I don't like the idea that Jesus actually existed, for instance, that's okay: it was the Devil who wrote the Gospels.

I don’t like that idea. Must be the devil that posted it.

(Satanic Verses anyone?)

 

[johnhanks]

When God made everything, it was good/perfect. When His creation rebelled against Him, He banished it outside of the garden of Eden. When this happened we began to accumulate random genetic changes, one of the by-products being pseudogenes.

Odd how these random genetic changes occurred near-identically in humans and chimps, a bit more differently in orangs, more differently still in monkeys...

I also believe that the devil can physically change our genes, to make it look like evolution occurred.

Ah, so the pseudogenes etc do make it look as though evolution occurred, just as biologists say they do.

But isn't a simpler explanation for our genomes looking as though evolution occurred ... uhhh ... that evolution occurred?

 

[painted wolf]

Having the Devil do it... gives a lot of power to the devil.
The devil can shape not only animal but human evolution.

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

Does the devil mess with geology, cosmology, paleontology, archeology, physics, astronomy and anthropology, or just biology, I wonder.

What measures should scientists institute to determine Satanic influence on evidence? What effect would that have on the scientific method?

 

[JustWondering2]

Correct me if I’m wrong. But wasn’t (isn’t whatever tense you’d like to use) the Devil, Lucifer, just an Angel? To hear some Christian tell it he can be omnipresent and just as powerful as God himself/herself! Isn’t that giving him a Hell of a lot (pardon the pun) more power than any Angel should have? I thought only God was all powerful!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Correct me if I’m wrong. But wasn’t (isn’t whatever tense you’d like to use) the Devil, Lucifer, just an Angel? To hear some Christian tell it he can be omnipresent and just as powerful as God himself/herself! Isn’t that giving him a Hell of a lot (pardon the pun) more power than any Angel should have? I thought only God was all powerful!

Ezekiel 28:14 has Satan as a covering cherub.
So his appointed position was that of an angelic overseer.

According to Hebrews 2:14 b Satan is not death proof. Jesus will destroy Satan.
According to Rev. 12:12 b Satan's time is limited.

Heb 2:14 b is in fulfillment of the first prophecy of Gen 3:15.
Jesus will deal Satan a fatal death bruise to his head.

 

[JustWondering2]

You didn't answer any of my questions! All you did was quote the Bible, which is circlular logic to me.
Don't tell me what you think Jesus will do to the Devil or what it say's in the Bible Jesus will do. Tell me if you think he is an equal to God as far as power is concerned. Can he (the devil) be everywhere all the time, is he all powerfull or not? If he is, then he is a God! If not he is just an excuse to use when you do something wrong. RE: Oh forgive me please, the Devil made me do it, I didn't really mean to do that.
Do you believe he has that kind of power or not?

 

[RedOne77]

You didn't answer any of my questions! All you did was quote the Bible, which is circlular logic to me.
Don't tell me what you think Jesus will do to the Devil or what it say's in the Bible Jesus will do. Tell me if you think he is an equal to God as far as power is concerned. Can he (the devil) be everywhere all the time, is he all powerfull or not? If he is, then he is a God! If not he is just an excuse to use when you do something wrong. RE: Oh forgive me please, the Devil made me do it, I didn't really mean to do that.
Do you believe he has that kind of power or not?

Lucifer was an archangel who rebelled and took 1/3 of the other angels with Him. While he isn't as powerful as God, he and his fallen angels do have some influence. Some believe that he does very little, others believe he is a major force in this world, and then you have people believing everything in-between. I am unsure where I would place my own opinion, probably somewhere in the middle favoring the more influence.

Also the word "power" is more of a relative term here, not an absolute. I have the power to pick up my computer. While it may not seem like a lot, it is still power and I can still use it. Now with a third of the angels defecting, it isn't too hard to come to the conclusion that they can influence the world quite a bit.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

... Some believe that he does very little, others believe he is a major force in this world, and then you have people believing everything in-between ...

... and some shake their head at the very thought of using such a construct to explain the presence of evil - much less to justify willful ignorance.

 

[painted wolf]

RedOne... you realize that you are implying that the devil has creative power. The power to produce new species and to tamper with the very form and function of the human species.

That is a lot of power.

If the devil alters our genetic code... does that mean he is responsible for all the genetic illnesses and unfortunate mutations? Is Downs' syndrome for example the devils fault rather than the result of natural processes?

wa:do

 

[johnhanks]

I also believe that the devil can physically change our genes, to make it look like evolution occurred. After all, evolution is a great tool to evangelize the masses to atheism and or reject the word of God.

Just out of interest, how much else of the evidence for evolution do you put down to the devil's mischief?

Did he re-route the laryngeal nerve to give it (in giraffes) a 15-foot detour, then make it look as if this was due to the altered fate of an embryonic branchial arch? Did he re-jig the development of human embryos to give them the circulatory systems of, in turn, fishes and reptiles before they develop a mammalian one? Did he (hoary old favourite, this one) create all the fossils and stack them in apparent order of evolution?

Or are you just drowning in the genes argument, and clutching at diabolical straws?

 

[Autodidact]

Lucifer was an archangel who rebelled and took 1/3 of the other angels with Him. While he isn't as powerful as God, he and his fallen angels do have some influence. Some believe that he does very little, others believe he is a major force in this world, and then you have people believing everything in-between. I am unsure where I would place my own opinion, probably somewhere in the middle favoring the more influence.

Also the word "power" is more of a relative term here, not an absolute. I have the power to pick up my computer. While it may not seem like a lot, it is still power and I can still use it. Now with a third of the angels defecting, it isn't too hard to come to the conclusion that they can influence the world quite a bit.

And this is the ancient magical belief system RedOne wants to infect modern science with. No thanks, RedOne, we won that fight a few centuries ago.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This thread is to discuss/debate the age of the earth, various dating methods, and other possible evidence.

The commonly accepted age for the earth in science is approximately 4.5 billion years old (4500000000). It has been argued by various Biblical literalists that the earth is only approximately 6000 years, or sometimes 10 000 years or even sometimes 13 000 years old.

So to start with I would like to give an idea of the scale of the discrepancy that we have here. To say that the earth is only 6000 years old would be equivalent of saying that the moon is only 500 metres away (850 metres for 10 000 years or 1.1 km for 13 000 years). Or it would be the equivalent of saying the distance from New York to Los Angeles is a little over 5 metres (or just under 9 meters or just over 11 metres). So the point I am labouring to make here is that there is a huge discrepancy. And with such a huge discrepancy a few thousand years make little difference either way.

If it bothers you that I am assuming that the 4.5 billion year date is correct for my examples above just reverse it. The scale of the error here is equivalent to thinking that your living room is 4000 kilometres long, or perhaps in thinking that the nearest grocery store is 380 000 km away. Before we even begin to discuss this I want people to have a sense of how big the difference is between the respective viewpoints.

Moving on.

There are several methods used for dating the earth. There is of course radiometric dating, which are actually several different methods.

Carbon-14/Nitrogen-14
Aluminium-26/Magnesium-26
Iodine-129/Xenon-129
Samarium-147/Neodymium-143
Uranian-235/Lead-207
Potassium-40/Argon-40
Uranium-238/Lead-206
Thorium-232/Lead-208
Rhenium-187/Osium-187
Rubidium-87/Strontium

These different radiometric dating methods each cover different ranges of timescales. And when the do overlap they all agree. They all agree and none of the lead to the conclusion of a young earth.

There is also of course dendrology, which is tree ring dating. This method of dating covers much of the same time range as Carbon dating and each can be used to confirm the other. Again we have agreement in dating methods

Then there is Varve Dating which are alternating dark and light sedimentary layers which are use date the earth (also called geochronology). Again this method agrees with radiometric dating and dendrochronology.

Then there is Ice Core dating. This is similar to Varve Dating and tree rings as you can detect the layers of ice caused by variations in temperature. Again this method agrees with the others.

There may be other methods that I have not mentioned here, and I have just given a brief introduction to these. If there are any questions about these or others I hope that I or someone else will be able to answer them. I hope that as this thread moves on we will expand and explain all of these in much greater detail.

I don’t believe there are any scientific dating methods that lead to the conclusion of a young earth. But if I am wrong in this I hope that someone will correct me and we can explore those as well.

Was this the round earth or the flat earth?

 

[JustWondering2]

:seesaw:Well that splans everything doesn't it? The Devil did it, right!! And the Easter Bunny will be here soon HUH? :bunny:

Attention all you science folks and Old Earthers... Here is the answer to everything, the Devil did it! How simple is that.
LOL ROTFLMAO

:thud:

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You didn't answer any of my questions! All you did was quote the Bible, which is circlular logic to me.
Don't tell me what you think Jesus will do to the Devil or what it say's in the Bible Jesus will do. Tell me if you think he is an equal to God as far as power is concerned. Can he (the devil) be everywhere all the time, is he all powerfull or not? If he is, then he is a God! If not he is just an excuse to use when you do something wrong. RE: Oh forgive me please, the Devil made me do it, I didn't really mean to do that.
Do you believe he has that kind of power or not?

Since God is Almighty, and not just mighty, then God has No equal.

As in Eden, the Devil tempted, but he could not make anyone do anything against one's will. The Devil has the help of his fallen angels.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Since God is Almighty, and not just mighty, then God has No equal.

As in Eden, the Devil tempted, but he could not make anyone do anything against one's will. The Devil has the help of his fallen angels.

You do understand that the Devil, Satan, Lucifer etc. is not found anywhere in Genesis?