Agnosticism vs. Atheism

[Jayhawker Soule]

Agnosticism: The lack of knowledge of a god or gods. "I don't know if god exists or not."

Atheism: The lack of a belief in a god or gods. Literally without theism.

Is there a connection between the two?

Good morning, Rex_Admin.

In my opinion, one form of agnosticism is the view that the Supernatural is inherently unknowable. Such a belief seems perfectly compatible with some forms of theism (e.g., Deism and fideism), and is likewise compatible with atheism when atheism is defined as the view that there is insufficient evidence warranting a belief in God(s).

 

[Runt]

In my opinion, one form of agnosticism is the view that the Supernatural is inherently unknowable.

I agree. This is also what leads many agnostics to reject organized religion, because it attempts to dictate how we should live by making up characteristics of an unknowable reality and expecting us to live our lives according to these made up characteristics.

However, I think your definition would make Taoists and many UUs agnostic... for this reason I prefer the broader term that Rex first offered...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

However, I think your definition would make Taoists ... agnostic...

I certainly wouldn't wish that! After all:

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.

- see Tao Te Ching

 

[Master Vigil]

Indeed meaning that the Ultimate Eternal Tao is unkowable, unproveable, inconcievable, etc... And the Tao that can be talked about is not the True Ultimate Eternal Tao. Which is why it can fit into agnosticism. Lao Tzu also goes into talking about it being Formless, Soundless, Incorporeal, unfathomable, unnabeable, indefinable, and unimaginable in chapter 14.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good morning, Master Vigil.

Indeed meaning that the Ultimate Eternal Tao is unkowable, unproveable, inconcievable, etc...

Both "Ultimate" and "Eternal"? Oy vey - such pretense! 8)

 

[Master Vigil]

Well, there are 2 main properties of the Tao. The Eternal Tao is what caused everything and still causes everything today. And the Natural Tao which causes chi to flow and balance to occur. The Ultimate Eternal Tao is the unknowable first cause. It is beyond our perception. But through the natural Tao we are able to understand it partially.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, there are 2 main properties of the Tao ...

Only 2, and not 5 or 37 or ... ? Thanks, Master Vigil. I must admit, however, that I find both humor and irony in the eagerness of some self-proclaimed Taoists to name the attributes of the nameless.

 

[Master Vigil]

Well then, show me where there is more than the eternal and natural Tao. I am not eager to name the attributes of the nameless. I only say what Lao Tzu himself said. It's right in the Tao Te Ching. Don't find humor in me, find humor in him then.

Tao can be talked about, but not the Eternal Tao.
Names can be named, but not he Eternal Name.
As the origin of heaven and earth, it is nameless.
As the Mother of all things, it is nameable.
So, as ever hidden, we should look at its inner apects.
As always manifest, we should look at its outer aspects.
These two flow from the same source, though differently named.
And both are called mysteries,
The mystery of mysteries is the door of all essence.

Chapter 1 - Tao Te Ching

Therefore, the eternal Tao (origin) is nameless. But the natural Tao (mother) is nameable. The hidden must be looked at inside you, and the outer can be seen in nature. And these two flow from the same source. So therefore, taoists are able to name the attributes of the nameless. Lao Tzu says so.

 

[Runt]

But Master Vigil, I have to side with Deut. 32.8 on this point, at least with the logic of his argument. Taoists say that the Eternal Tao is unknowable. As an unknowable entity, which can be described with no words, we should not be able to define the attributes of the Eternal Tao. Yet we do. The Tao Te Ching describes the attributes of the Eternal Tao. It says in my copy of the text that the Eternal Tao is "the eternally real...darkness within darkness...the gateway to all understanding" (1), "like a well: used but never used up...like the eternal void: filled with infinite possibilities...hidden but always present...older than God" (4), "like a bellow: it is empty but infintely capable" (5), and so on and so forth. Here Lao-tzu describes something that should be undescribable... and yet even these attempts to define the Eternal Tao as something that is undescribable, incomprehensible, or unknowable, are still reliant upon verbal attributes that describe concepts that we humans can conceive of and describe. So I would argue that we truly don't know what the Eternal Tao is... and any attributes that we apply to it only apply to the Natural Tao, for that is the part of the Tao that we can understand and the attributes we previously assigned to the Eternal Tao are attributes that we understand used to describe something that we don't understand...which doesn't work, because it shouldn't be able to be described at all, even to say that it is "undescribable".

It does make us look like hypocrites to say that the Eternal Tao cannot be described and then to describe it... however, I would say that instead it is a paradox that demonstrates how undescribable the Eternal Tao really is... that every value we assign to it is not accurate because we understand those values and we don't understand the Eternal Tao.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I only say what Lao Tzu himself said. It's right in the Tao Te Ching. ... Lao Tzu says so.

So there! :mrgreen:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It does make us look like hypocrites to say that the Eternal Tao cannot be described and then to describe it ...

Good morning, Runt. I don't think it makes you look like hypocrites. I think it makes you look like members of a pattern-matching species naturally uncomfortable with the patternless, i.e., with cognitive gaps. At some level the God-of-the-Gaps and the Tao-of-the-Gaps seem indistinguishable - and the gaps are shrinking.

 

[Engyo]

Or Buddhist.

There is in Buddhism a representation called Mara; this is sometimes taken by theistically oriented persons to be similar to the devil. However Mara is a personification or representation of the fundamental darkness within all human life; otherwise known as the Three Poisons of greed, anger and ignorance.

Personally I like to add a fourth poison, which is that of fear. Fear motivates people to do some of the most terrible things we know of, with what they feel are the highest of motives.

 

[Master Vigil]

Taoists don't believe in the big mr. spooky either. They only understand that evil exists because good exists. And they understand that it has to exist. But to live in balance, one has to find a happy medium between extremes. Like the buddhist middle road.

 

[Master Vigil]

How do I know the ways of the world, by what is within me. The Tao is what I do not understand. Once I know what I do understand, I then know what I do not. That is the natural Tao helping me. But, since the Tao is complete balance. The more I know, the more I do not understand. So I do not believe that the gaps are shrinking.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So I do not believe that the gaps are shrinking.

Perhap, Master Vigil, for you they are not.

 

[Master Vigil]

Nor would they for a taoist. The universe is growing, therefore, the more we know the more there is out there to learn. And I believe that our knowledge will never catch up with the growing amount of the unkowable. There will always be more than we know. And that amount of what we do not know, I call Tao. And everything we do know, I call Tao. Everything you write, I call Tao. Everything I write, I call Tao. Everything you call science, I call Tao. Everything you call love, I call Tao. The Tao is everything, and it is nothing!! The Tao is in the beginning, and in the end. In dark, and in light. The Tao will always be there for us to learn from, to humble ourselves to, to never prove or disprove. The Tao, is TAO!!!!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The universe is growing, therefore, the more we know the more there is out there to learn.

First of all, the fact that the universe is expanding does not mean that the more we know the more there is to learn--this logic does not necessarily follow.

Secondly, your second statement is a big assumption. It's also possible that there is only so much to know about the universe, so the more we know the less there is to learn.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Tao is everything, and it is nothing!! The Tao is in the beginning, and in the end. In dark, and in light. The Tao will always be there for us to learn from, to humble ourselves to, to never prove or disprove. The Tao, is TAO!!!!

Oy vey - an Evangetical Taoist! There really is no need to shout. :mrgreen:

 

[anders]

JonJohnrob,‎

Please try to avoid the multiple posts. They use up a lot of space and spoil the overview.‎

Let us assume that the Bible states God’s law. Killings of so many kinds are not only allowed, ‎but prescribed. Not only “just” wars are allowed, but also several instances of capital punishment ‎for, for example, naughty children. And trying to bring on an abortion is a MUST if a jealous ‎husband thinks that his wife is pregnant by another man. Read the horror story in Numbers 5:11-27!‎

The best interpretation of the Hebrew word in the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” is ‎something like “You must not commit cold-blooded murder unless necessary”, where the ‎‎“necessary” bit obviously has a very wide meaning.‎

Runt,‎

Muslims do believe in the Devil (Iblis or al-Shaytân al-Mâkir, the cunning Satan). There are ‎numerous references to this being in the Qur’an.‎

 

[Master Vigil]

I was only being a little too excited. And I was posting as I was listening to the Last Samurai Score. So it was playing on my emotions. I would like to know something though, deut, how do you feel about taoism? So far you have not given me a solid idea of even what religion you are.

Now let me calm my mind, and get back to where I should be... There we go, the Tao does not need me to evangelize for it, for it is not an object, but an essence. And this essence flows through, above, and beyond all things. I humbly say, what I do not know... is Tao. I what do know... is Tao.

My logic is simply that if the universe is expanding extremely fast, than there will be more things happening within it. Therefore, the more we learn, the more things happen to be learned about. So it is like a man running to catch a candy bar tied to his back and hung in front of his face, just out of reach. That is what I mean.