Agnosticism vs. Atheism

[Alaric]

My logic is simply that if the universe is expanding extremely fast, than there will be more things happening within it. Therefore, the more we learn, the more things happen to be learned about. So it is like a man running to catch a candy bar tied to his back and hung in front of his face, just out of reach. That is what I mean.

But expanding doesn't mean that more matter and energy is being created, it just means that things are getting further apart. It might even mean that the universe is a fixed size and that everything inside it is skrinking, creating the illusion that the universe is expanding. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[Master Vigil]

That is true alaric. Either way, we are never sure of our own perception. So if we someday find out what the universe is actually doing, we will have to figure out our perception then. And once we figure out our perception, everything else changes because our perception will be defunct. And once everything else changes, we will have to develop new methods of perception to perceive the new truth, but we will not be sure about that perception either, and then the cycle will start all over again.

 

[Alaric]

That was confusing...
If someday we find out what the universe is actually doing, it will be because we can describe it objectively, i.e. in a way that holds true no matter your perspective or means of perception. And until then, it doesn't matter whether the universe is shrinking or expanding unless you start building your beliefs on one or the other scenario with no justification. You claim to know what you don't know, but if you did, you wouldn't say what you're saying. You're a Taoist, and the Tao is that which you do not know, so you are one who practises the way of that which you do not know? Or are you one who speculates about the unknown in order to know? For example, you say the Tao causes balance but not only do you not know this (because it is unknowable), you also say that the universe is expanding, which seems like imbalance. You need to stake one variable down, and work from there. I think your use of the Tao is actually preventing you from appreciating the extent of humanity's ignorance.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Don't worry Master Vigil...even though everyone here has ganged up on you, and even though I disagree with you also, I'm still rooting for you.

Go Master Vigil! I hope he wins the debate even though he's outnumbered...root for the underdog!

:goodjob:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good evening, Master Vigil:

I was only being a little too excited. And I was posting as I was listening to the Last Samurai Score. So it was playing on my emotions.

Perhaps you should try Brahms.

I would like to know something though, deut, how do you feel about taoism?

Fine. I must admit, however, that I have a mild resistance to evangelical taoism. To zealously insist that 'X' is such and such because "Lao Tzu says so" strikes me as a little funny, particularly since some consider the work to be pseudepigraphical.

So far you have not given me a solid idea of even what religion you are.

None. In fact, I contemplate "None" daily.

Now let me calm my mind, and get back to where I should be...

The Tao tells you where you should be? Perhaps you should trade it in on a more accepting model.

There we go, the Tao does not need me to evangelize for it, for it is not an object, but an essence. And this essence flows through, above, and beyond all things. I humbly say, what I do not know... is Tao. I what do know... is Tao.

You know far too much to be a Taoist. By the way, did you become humble before or after you chose your username?

My logic is simply that if the universe is expanding extremely fast, than there will be more things happening within it. Therefore, the more we learn, the more things happen to be learned about.

But you've already acknowledged that this logic is flawed, which means that you now know even more than before. It seems as if I'll never catch up!

Either way, we are never sure of our own perception.

The zen koan says: eat your rice / wash your bowl - it says nothing about being sure of your perceptions of either. Wisdom is not the process of making things artificially obscure or inscrutable.

I'm sorry to tease you like this, Master Vigil. As I said, I find evangelical taoism mildly humourous. It somehow brings to mind a picture of some constipated but otherwise cordial Lao Tzu.

As least we agree that the is no conflict between atheism and agnosticism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Go Master Vigil! I hope he wins the debate even though he's outnumbered...root for the underdog!

Hi, Mr_Spinkles. What are your views on "Agnosticism vs. Atheism"?

 

[jonjohnrob11]

pw: believing in Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook would indicate ure christian. just believing in the Great Spirit leads toward judaism and islam. there are good buddhists, hindus, atheists, agnostics etc.
as long as u have love in your heart u r doing fine, as God is Love and therefore inside u like many others. God doesn't condemn good people just the evil ones. most people i believe are in the Book of Life, which is secret and contains the names of all souls who will dwell with the Lord in heaven.
u r on the right track painted wolf. keep searching for truth till someday u know where to find absolute truth, which is one of my topics in this forum. also i have a topic on truth and conscience u mite like to refer to.

 

[jonjohnrob11]

pw: believing in Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook would indicate ure christian. just believing in the Great Spirit leads toward judaism and islam. there are good buddhists, hindus, atheists, agnostics etc.
as long as u have love in your heart u r doing fine, as God is Love and therefore inside u like many others. God doesn't condemn good people just the evil ones. most people i believe are in the Book of Life, which is secret and contains the names of all souls who will dwell with the Lord in heaven.
u r on the right track painted wolf. keep searching for truth till someday u know where to find absolute truth, which is one of my topics in this forum. also i have a topic on truth and conscience u mite like to refer to.

 

[jonjohnrob11]

Christians, muslims and jews all believe in the same God. christians believe in the Holy Trinity or one God, three Persons. Jews believe in God the Father and the Holy Spirit as do the Muslims. to them Jesus was just a prophet. muslims believe. Mohammed was a prophet according to Islam.

 

[jonjohnrob11]

master vigil sounds like the psychological tenet: "i'm ok ure ok", which leans towards the utilitarian theory of the minority should suffer for benefit of the majority if necessary. doing evil causes harm to ureself and theologically to everybody because evil is an unfair act and degrading. "the world isn't fair" but u don't have to add to it. u can help by doing good and increasing the joy of living. we all can. it's a decision we all have to make. apathycomplacency and don't care attitudes about God make us unhappy and unloving. we all been there and done it.

 

[jonjohnrob11]

anders: God the Father was vindictive until his son payed the price for our salvation. now it proper to not retaliate, but to forgive and do good to ure enemies. personally i have made very good friends with my enemies. if i had the old jewish and protestant belief of an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, i too would be at war without inner peace.

if u want to know how a war qualifies as just nowadays read the roman catholic catechism on just wars.

true abortion is centuries old and has been legalized before by certain nations, sorry i can't list any. God's laws don't ever change but are fulfilled. Jesus didn't come to abolish the laws but to fulfill them. God's law take precedence over man's law. God is perfect, man isn't. they are the ten commandments not the ten suggestions.

the devil believes in God but he is pure evil. believe needs to be qualified as existence here and in that case everyone believes in the devil because he exists. everyone believes in the existence of God either consciously or subconsciously.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

To be fair, the Church is more "eye for an eye" than some Protestants are. The Amish refuse to participate in retaliatory violence of any kind, while the Catholic Church has the Just War theory.

 

[Master Vigil]

"master vigil sounds like the psychological tenet: "i'm ok ure ok", which leans towards the utilitarian theory of the minority should suffer for benefit of the majority if necessary."

That would be so if minorities were in fact minorities. Nothing is a minority in Taoism. Everything strives for balance. Nothing more. And its true the world isn't fair, but that is what divides balance from imbalance.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Agnosticism: The lack of knowledge of a god or gods. "I don't know if god exists or not."

Atheism: The lack of a belief in a god or gods. Literally without theism.

Is there a connection between the two?

Good morning, Rex_Admin.

In my opinion, one form of agnosticism is the view that the Supernatural is inherently unknowable. Such a belief seems perfectly compatible with some forms of theism (e.g., Deism and fideism), and is likewise compatible with atheism when atheism is defined as the view that there is insufficient evidence warranting a belief in God(s).

 

[Runt]

In my opinion, one form of agnosticism is the view that the Supernatural is inherently unknowable.

I agree. This is also what leads many agnostics to reject organized religion, because it attempts to dictate how we should live by making up characteristics of an unknowable reality and expecting us to live our lives according to these made up characteristics.

However, I think your definition would make Taoists and many UUs agnostic... for this reason I prefer the broader term that Rex first offered...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

However, I think your definition would make Taoists ... agnostic...

I certainly wouldn't wish that! After all:

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.

- see Tao Te Ching

 

[Master Vigil]

Indeed meaning that the Ultimate Eternal Tao is unkowable, unproveable, inconcievable, etc... And the Tao that can be talked about is not the True Ultimate Eternal Tao. Which is why it can fit into agnosticism. Lao Tzu also goes into talking about it being Formless, Soundless, Incorporeal, unfathomable, unnabeable, indefinable, and unimaginable in chapter 14.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good morning, Master Vigil.

Indeed meaning that the Ultimate Eternal Tao is unkowable, unproveable, inconcievable, etc...

Both "Ultimate" and "Eternal"? Oy vey - such pretense! 8)

 

[Master Vigil]

Well, there are 2 main properties of the Tao. The Eternal Tao is what caused everything and still causes everything today. And the Natural Tao which causes chi to flow and balance to occur. The Ultimate Eternal Tao is the unknowable first cause. It is beyond our perception. But through the natural Tao we are able to understand it partially.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, there are 2 main properties of the Tao ...

Only 2, and not 5 or 37 or ... ? Thanks, Master Vigil. I must admit, however, that I find both humor and irony in the eagerness of some self-proclaimed Taoists to name the attributes of the nameless.