Alabama passes bill making some transgender healthcare a felony

[ADigitalArtist]

Objective evidence do not count in this instance.
Being a god to oneself allows for some things to be acceptable as a religious belief... if that makes sense.

Objective evidence like this?
Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia
What Do We Mean By Sex and Gender?
Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News
Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender
Biological basis of gender identity - ScienceDirect

Believing you have a god doesn't make you more objective. Just inserts totalitarianism where objectivity would be.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That's the article you linked. Is it not? So why did you post it?

You cited the Breitbart article from which the quote in post #200 came from.

 

[nPeace]

You cited the Breitbart article from which the quote in post #200 came from.

I quoted the article you linked in your post, where you stated, Maybe they're misinformed:

A viral fake news story linked trans health care to 'thousands' of deaths
The problem is: the “thousands” of people who die while taking these drugs are likely the terminally ill cancer patients who receive hormone blockers to fight hormone-sensitive cancers, like prostate cancer, according to experts.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I quoted the article you linked in your post, where you stated, Maybe they're misinformed:

A viral fake news story linked trans health care to 'thousands' of deaths
The problem is: the “thousands” of people who die while taking these drugs are likely the terminally ill cancer patients who receive hormone blockers to fight hormone-sensitive cancers, like prostate cancer, according to experts.

Yep, and then I cited a quotation from your Breitbart article that basically said the same thing.
So the study is flawed, the title of the Breitbart article is flawed, and the people citing this fake story as some sort of evidence that the FDA has linked thousands of deaths to puberty blockers have been misled and misinformed.

 

[nPeace]

Yep, and then I cited a quotation from your Breitbart article that basically said the same thing.
So the study is flawed, the title of the Breitbart article is flawed, and the people citing this fake story as some sort of evidence that the FDA has linked thousands of deaths to puberty blockers have been misled and misinformed.

Okay, I don't know. I don't have all the facts.
No one should push fake news just to get things in their favor. In fact fake news is dishonest... period.
However, as I said before, I don't have much knowledge on this.
It seems like there is little to go on, regarding effects, and everyone is making a decision based on their view.

I have no say in who's decision is right or wrong here, but I believe the lawmakers are acting in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved (that's not a bad thing).

Do you think they are misinformed? If so, what are they misinformed about, and what are they missing, which they need to understand?

 

[fantome profane]

I believe the lawmakers are acting in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved (that's not a bad thing).

What do you think about the parents of transgender children? What do you think about the medical community and individuals who specialize in this area? Are they not acting “in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved”? If they come do a different conclusion about the treatment of their own child than the conclusion of the Alabama Republican lawmakers, why would you think the lawmakers are right, and the parents and the medical experts are wrong?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What we have now is a transgender fad, instead of accepting that being male or female encompasses a wide range of differences, it’s you must be trans. The bottom line is you cannot biologically change your physical sex no matter how many operations you have. You end up mutilating your body, or have fake parts.

A transgender "fad" that's a lot like the left-handedness "fad":

 

[nPeace]

What do you think about the parents of transgender children? What do you think about the medical community and individuals who specialize in this area?

Did you read my posts?
I have no say in who's decision is right or wrong here

Are they not acting “in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved”?

I don't know, but most of them are sincere, I am sure.
They may be ignorant and misinformed as well... though sincere.
Same as with the lawmakers.
It's not a bad thing to be sincere... even if wrong.
If the facts can be made clear, that makes a huge difference... I think.
They are consequences if wrong though.

If they come do a different conclusion about the treatment of their own child than the conclusion of the Alabama Republican lawmakers, why would you think the lawmakers are right, and the parents and the medical experts are wrong?

Did you read that I think so? Where?

Why are you so emotional?

 

[nPeace]

@fantome profane seeing that @SkepticThinker hasn't responded to my questions... perhaps she will do that later, since she obviously doesn't live on RF, can I get your response?
Do you think the lawmakers are misinformed? If so, what are they misinformed about, and what are they missing, which they need to understand?

 

[fantome profane]

@fantome profane seeing that @SkepticThinker hasn't responded to my questions... perhaps she will do that later, since she obviously doesn't live on RF, can I get your response?
Do you think the lawmakers are misinformed? If so, what are they misinformed about, and what are they missing, which they need to understand?

I don’t claim to be an expert any more than you do. But experts in this subject do exist, and they vehemently disagree with laws like these. You have to decide who is more likely to understand the issue, the medical experts who have studied and researched the subject, or politicians who haven’t? You have to decide who cares more about the well being of these children, their parents/guardians who love them, or the politicians who haven’t even met them and can’t be bothered to?

For me this is not a hard call.

Transgender treatment ban challenged by lawsuit in Alabama

You said you think these lawmakers are acting “in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved”. I don’t. I think the lawmakers who pass laws like this are ignorant bigots. I think they are trying to use a marginalized community for their own political gain. I think innocent children are going to suffer because of this law. I think innocent children are going to die because of this law.

Have I made my position clear? Do you understand why I might be emotional?

 

[nPeace]

I don’t claim to be an expert any more than you do. But experts in this subject do exist, and they vehemently disagree with laws like these. You have to decide who is more likely to understand the issue, the medical experts who have studied and researched the subject, or politicians who haven’t? You have to decide who cares more about the well being of these children, their parents/guardians who love them, or the politicians who haven’t even met them and can’t be bothered to?

For me this is not a hard call.

Transgender treatment ban challenged by lawsuit in Alabama

You said you think these lawmakers are acting “in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved”. I don’t. I think the lawmakers who pass laws like this are ignorant bigots. I think they are trying to use a marginalized community for their own political gain. I think innocent children are going to suffer because of this law. I think innocent children are going to die because of this law.

Have I made my position clear? Do you understand why I might be emotional?

I understand that you are emotional because you feel emotional about the issue (correct me if that's not it), but feeling emotional about something, and making decisions based on those emotions is not a good thing, even though I understand it is a difficult thing.

You said the lawmakers are ignorant bigots, but that assessment based on emotional bias is not very different. Would you agree?
Do you know that they are acting in ignorance? If so, it's not a political agenda, because it's not willful.
In that case, shouldn't you understand their side, just as you want them to understand your side?
Unless you think they are indeed not ignorant, but agenda driven bigots. Then, that's different.

We can't expect lawmakers to agree with people just because they feel the way they they do. If people feel they have a basis - not an emotional one, or just a desire, then they could put forth evidence that might be able to gain them "freedom"

If things do not work out in their favor, then they may need to be patient, and "keep up the fight".
Freedom for colored people, for example, was not gained in one night, and to this day, many colored people are still not 'free', but facing atrocities ... not only them, but many others - vulnerable children included.

Many of us are victims, not only to ignorant mankind, but victims of our own internal nature.
Waiting for freedom may take years... or weeks, as your link suggests and much patience, but what more can we do? Does blowing up help?
That only causes more damage, does it not?

I think it's important to note though, that there is evidence to show that puberty blockers may be linked to psychological problems, and there is evidence to show that these health measures do not stop deaths, as suicidal thoughts are not removed through these.
Also, there are other methods which evidence shows are not being used as alternatives.

I think looking at the overall evidence should outweigh the emotional drive.
May I ask, is this a moral issue for you? In other words, is it wrong for someone to live the life they have?

 

[metis]

@SkepticThinker ... hasn't responded to my questions...

That's so hypocritical as you didn't answer mine on another thread after asking you twice. Or is it "Do as I say but not as I do" with you?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yet it's still okay to marry your 13 year old cousin.

You know your a redneck when....

 

[Twilight Hue]

Or the Breitbart article you cited was poorly written and misleading, including the title of the article. I started to get that impression the moment I realized that the supposed links to the studies from the Breitbart article take you no where.

This, also was included in the Breitbart article you cited:

"Dr. Jane Orient, executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, confirmed to Breitbart News in email comments that while some of the deaths reported by FDA could have been patients who died of prostate cancer, the problem is that very little is known about the use of Lupron “to treat healthy children, deliberately to block normal maturation.”

So again, sounds like this "study" suffered from poor methodology and probably shouldn't be cited as any kind of robust study on the subject.

I say Dr Jane Orient is right on the money.

It's why I respect independent physicians and surgeons that are not beholden to juggernauts that keeps others on a credentialed leash who in turn bark in line with its masters.

 

[fantome profane]

I understand that you are emotional because you feel emotional about the issue (correct me if that's not it), but feeling emotional about something, and making decisions based on those emotions is not a good thing, even though I understand it is a difficult thing.

You said the lawmakers are ignorant bigots, but that assessment based on emotional bias is not very different. Would you agree?
Do you know that they are acting in ignorance? If so, it's not a political agenda, because it's not willful.
In that case, shouldn't you understand their side, just as you want them to understand your side?
Unless you think they are indeed not ignorant, but agenda driven bigots. Then, that's different.

We can't expect lawmakers to agree with people just because they feel the way they they do. If people feel they have a basis - not an emotional one, or just a desire, then they could put forth evidence that might be able to gain them "freedom"

If things do not work out in their favor, then they may need to be patient, and "keep up the fight".
Freedom for colored people, for example, was not gained in one night, and to this day, many colored people are still not 'free', but facing atrocities ... not only them, but many others - vulnerable children included.

Many of us are victims, not only to ignorant mankind, but victims of our own internal nature.
Waiting for freedom may take years... or weeks, as your link suggests and much patience, but what more can we do? Does blowing up help?
That only causes more damage, does it not?

I think it's important to note though, that there is evidence to show that puberty blockers may be linked to psychological problems, and there is evidence to show that these health measures do not stop deaths, as suicidal thoughts are not removed through these.
Also, there are other methods which evidence shows are not being used as alternatives.

I think looking at the overall evidence should outweigh the emotional drive.
May I ask, is this a moral issue for you? In other words, is it wrong for someone to live the life they have?

Emotion does not necessarily impede intelligent thought. In fact sometimes it is required. If someone does not have an emotional reaction to children dying, either they are psychopathic or they don’t understand.

These politicians are not following the science, they are acting in contradiction of the medical experts. I find it absolutely ridiculous to suggest that they have a greater understanding than those who have spent their entire career studying and researching this condition and the treatment of such. The two sides are not equal. You can get medical advice from some guy standing on a street corner, but if he ain’t a qualified doctor I would not take it. I wouldn’t get a baker to fix your car, or a florist to fix your computer. And I wouldn’t get a politician to determine medical treatment.

Politicians have always used disadvantaged minorities to advance their political career. Racial minorities, religious minorities, immigrants, gays etc. Over time it may have become less politically advantageous to attack those groups (although they still do, and they do it to advance their political careers). Now they attack the trans people, and specifically children. If they were following the evidence I would have a different opinion. But they are not.

Don’t talk to me about time and patience. The trans community has suffered from this kind of bigotry for too long already, and it is not getting better it is getting worse. Politicians who feel they lost the same sex marriage fight just found a new group to victimize.

A wise man said “Justice delayed is Justice denied”.


Again, I am not prescribing blockers or hormones to anyone. I am not a doctor. These medications may have side effects, they may not be appropriate for every child who feels they may be transgendered. This is not a one size fits all situation. Every child, just like every adult, is an individual. They deserve to be treated like individuals. This decision needs to be made carefully, considering all the possible harm and all the possible benefits of taking them, as well as all the harm or benefit of not taking them.

It is absurd to think that a medical expert who is knowledgeable about the treatment and the medical history of the patient, who has personal relationship with their patient and the family is equal to a bunch of politicians trying to decide for everyone in the state. It is not only absurd, but extremely dangerous for the government to get in between the doctor and the patient like this.


Any more questions for me?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Okay, I don't know. I don't have all the facts.
No one should push fake news just to get things in their favor. In fact fake news is dishonest... period.
However, as I said before, I don't have much knowledge on this.
It seems like there is little to go on, regarding effects, and everyone is making a decision based on their view.

I have no say in who's decision is right or wrong here, but I believe the lawmakers are acting in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved (that's not a bad thing).

Do you think they are misinformed? If so, what are they misinformed about, and what are they missing, which they need to understand?

Yes, I think the lawmakers are misinformed and I think they are using this issue as more of their "culture wars" nonsense because Republicans don't seem to actually have any real platform to run on. Just culture war issues in attempts to get voters riled up. Like abortion. They used to fight against gay people, and now that that has become acceptable, they've moved on to their next powerless victims - the transgender community.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don’t claim to be an expert any more than you do. But experts in this subject do exist, and they vehemently disagree with laws like these. You have to decide who is more likely to understand the issue, the medical experts who have studied and researched the subject, or politicians who haven’t? You have to decide who cares more about the well being of these children, their parents/guardians who love them, or the politicians who haven’t even met them and can’t be bothered to?

For me this is not a hard call.

Transgender treatment ban challenged by lawsuit in Alabama

You said you think these lawmakers are acting “in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved”. I don’t. I think the lawmakers who pass laws like this are ignorant bigots. I think they are trying to use a marginalized community for their own political gain. I think innocent children are going to suffer because of this law. I think innocent children are going to die because of this law.

Have I made my position clear? Do you understand why I might be emotional?

You said it better than I did again!

 

[SkepticThinker]

I say Dr Jane Orient is right on the money.

It's why I respect independent physicians and surgeons that are not beholden to juggernauts that keeps others on a credentialed leash who in turn bark in line with its masters.

So you agree that the title of that article is misleading and misinformed. Great!

 

[nPeace]

Emotion does not necessarily impede intelligent thought. In fact sometimes it is required. If someone does not have an emotional reaction to children dying, either they are psychopathic or they don’t understand.

These politicians are not following the science, they are acting in contradiction of the medical experts. I find it absolutely ridiculous to suggest that they have a greater understanding than those who have spent their entire career studying and researching this condition and the treatment of such. The two sides are not equal. You can get medical advice from some guy standing on a street corner, but if he ain’t a qualified doctor I would not take it. I wouldn’t get a baker to fix your car, or a florist to fix your computer. And I wouldn’t get a politician to determine medical treatment.

Politicians have always used disadvantaged minorities to advance their political career. Racial minorities, religious minorities, immigrants, gays etc. Over time it may have become less politically advantageous to attack those groups (although they still do, and they do it to advance their political careers). Now they attack the trans people, and specifically children. If they were following the evidence I would have a different opinion. But they are not.

Don’t talk to me about time and patience. The trans community has suffered from this kind of bigotry for too long already, and it is not getting better it is getting worse. Politicians who feel they lost the same sex marriage fight just found a new group to victimize.

A wise man said “Justice delayed is Justice denied”.


Again, I am not prescribing blockers or hormones to anyone. I am not a doctor. These medications may have side effects, they may not be appropriate for every child who feels they may be transgendered. This is not a one size fits all situation. Every child, just like every adult, is an individual. They deserve to be treated like individuals. This decision needs to be made carefully, considering all the possible harm and all the possible benefits of taking them, as well as all the harm or benefit of not taking them.

It is absurd to think that a medical expert who is knowledgeable about the treatment and the medical history of the patient, who has personal relationship with their patient and the family is equal to a bunch of politicians trying to decide for everyone in the state. It is not only absurd, but extremely dangerous for the government to get in between the doctor and the patient like this.


Any more questions for me?

I am sure I had a question, but it's gone from me now, since I was away.
Maybe it will return to me later. Thanks.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, I think the lawmakers are misinformed and I think they are using this issue as more of their "culture wars" nonsense because Republicans don't seem to actually have any real platform to run on. Just culture war issues in attempts to get voters riled up. Like abortion. They used to fight against gay people, and now that that has become acceptable, they've moved on to their next powerless victims - the transgender community.

Okay. You think that. Nothing wrong with thinking.
The lawmakers think things too.
I think your thoughts are based on your feelings on the matter, and you cannot prove... even in the most honest court of justice, what you said about Republicans and culture war issues... even if it's true.

I think this all boils down to a fight between people who want change in culture and society, standards, values, morals... you name it, and people who want to keep a culture and society with those standards, values, morals, etc, and not have it change to what the opposing side wants. ...and I think the opposing side believes they have a right to win.

Why? I think I know, but you tell me.
Why should you - not you as in you, but you know what I mean Why should you win this fight, and the other side surrender to you?