Alabama passes bill making some transgender healthcare a felony

[SkepticThinker]

Okay. You think that. Nothing wrong with thinking.
The lawmakers think things too.
I think your thoughts are based on your feelings on the matter, and you cannot prove... even in the most honest court of justice, what you said about Republicans and culture war issues... even if it's true.

I think I could easily prove it.

They are right now, as we speak, working to pass all kinds of anti-transgender bills all across the country. The very same thing they did with anti-gay bills in the past, before it finally became acceptable to be gay. And what's the other non-issue they're all hung up on at the moment? Critical race theory being taught to young children which it is not, and never was, as that is a graduate level college course. Heck, they just banned a bunch of math textbooks in Florida based on some insane notion that they're pushing critical race theory onto children. It's nonsense.

I think this all boils down to a fight between people who want change in culture and society, standards, values, morals... you name it, and people who want to keep a culture and society with those standards, values, morals, etc, and not have it change to what the opposing side wants. ...and I think the opposing side believes they have a right to win.

That sounds about right.
The problem is that "traditional values" are overrated and often discriminatory. "Traditional values" say that women shouldn't have the right to vote, or to own property. "Traditional values" say that gay people shouldn't exist and should just spend their lives pretending to be something they're not. "Traditional values" say that men can beat their wives. "Traditional values" say that black people aren't full human beings. Perhaps you can see why some people think social and cultural progress is a necessity.

Why? I think I know, but you tell me.
Why should you - not you as in you, but you know what I mean Why should you win this fight, and the other side surrender to you?

Why should I win the fight against bigotry and discrimination? Hmmm ....

 

[ElishaElijah]

That sounds about right.
The problem is that "traditional values" are overrated and often discriminatory. "Traditional values" say that women shouldn't have the right to vote, or to own property. "Traditional values" say that gay people shouldn't exist and should just spend their lives pretending to be something they're not. "Traditional values" say that men can beat their wives. "Traditional values" say that black people aren't full human beings. Perhaps you can see why some people think social and cultural progress is a necessity.

Those aren’t traditional values that I grew up with but abuses. When I think traditional values it’s more along these lines:
Traditional, historical American values have in the past, included a faith in God, prayer and the Bible, which has for a large part, been the foundation of other national traditions. These included such things as honor and respect for the family, diligent work ethics, absolute values of right and wrong, honesty in business practices, wholesomeness in leadership, respect toward authority, moderation rather than excess, marriage as a prerequisite before having sex or bearing children, a family which consists of both a father and mother, taking responsibility to provide for our own — such as one’s spouse, family and children, and so forth.
*This is from an article about traditional values definition

 

[fantome profane]

I think this all boils down to a fight between people …

Yes, it is a fight between people.

On one side you have Politicians who do not have any medical expertise on this issue or any other.

And on the other side you have the medical and scientific community who have studied this issue.

On one side you have Politicians making laws for people they know nothing about.

And on the other side you have families and doctors with deep intimate understanding of these young people and what they are going through.


Can you not see that the two sides are not equal? Can you not see that one side obviously has greater understanding than the other?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Those aren’t traditional values that I grew up with but abuses. When I think traditional values it’s more along these lines:

Sure they are, historically speaking.

Traditional, historical American values have in the past, included a faith in God, prayer and the Bible, which has for a large part, been the foundation of other national traditions. These included such things as honor and respect for the family, diligent work ethics, absolute values of right and wrong, honesty in business practices, wholesomeness in leadership, respect toward authority, moderation rather than excess, marriage as a prerequisite before having sex or bearing children, a family which consists of both a father and mother, taking responsibility to provide for our own — such as one’s spouse, family and children, and so forth.
*This is from an article about traditional values definition

Most of these values you mentioned are centred around one particular religion (despite the fact that the US was founded as a secular nation) and I noticed that you've included some of the "traditional values" I just mentioned, despite your claim that they aren't traditional values that you grew up with. So thank you for helping point out why we need social and cultural progress on many issues.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sure they are, historically speaking.


Most of these values you mentioned are centred around one particular religion (despite the fact that the US was founded as a secular nation) and I noticed that you've included some of the "traditional values" I just mentioned, despite your claim that they aren't traditional values that you grew up with. So thank you for helping point out why we need social and cultural progress on many issues.

Like what?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Like what?

The inequality of women and discrimination against gay and transgendered people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You said you think these lawmakers are acting “in sincerity toward the welfare of the children involved”. I don’t. I think the lawmakers who pass laws like this are ignorant bigots. I think they are trying to use a marginalized community for their own political gain. I think innocent children are going to suffer because of this law. I think innocent children are going to die because of this law.

If it was truly to protect the kids then they would insist medical decisions be guided by science, medicine, and physicians. Not legislators or pastors.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The inequality of women and discrimination against gay and transgendered people.

How are these inequality and discrimination?
These included such things as honor and respect for the family, diligent work ethics, absolute values of right and wrong, honesty in business practices, wholesomeness in leadership, respect toward authority, moderation rather than excess, marriage as a prerequisite before having sex or bearing children, a family which consists of both a father and mother, taking responsibility to provide for our own — such as one’s spouse, family and children, and so forth.

 

[SkepticThinker]

How are these inequality and discrimination?
These included such things as honor and respect for the family, diligent work ethics, absolute values of right and wrong, honesty in business practices, wholesomeness in leadership, respect toward authority, moderation rather than excess, marriage as a prerequisite before having sex or bearing children, a family which consists of both a father and mother, taking responsibility to provide for our own — such as one’s spouse, family and children, and so forth.

The things I mentioned were the byproducts of those traditional religious values.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think this all boils down to a fight between people who want change in culture and society, standards, values, morals... you name it, and people who want to keep a culture and society with those standards, values, morals, etc, and not have it change to what the opposing side wants. ...and I think the opposing side believes they have a right to win.

Guess what? American traditions, values, norms, culture and indeed law prioritize that all are created equal, endowed with certain unalienable rights, a place where we ask for the world's tired, huddled masses yearning to breath free, and affording all a chance to better themselves and get ahead.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The things I mentioned were the byproducts of those traditional religious values.

The things you mentioned were perversions

 

[nPeace]

Guess what? American traditions, values, norms, culture and indeed law prioritize that all are created equal, endowed with certain unalienable rights, a place where we ask for the world's tired, huddled masses yearning to breath free, and affording all a chance to better themselves and get ahead.

What are you saying? No laws except the law of "freedom"?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Traditional, historical American values have in the past, included a faith in God, prayer and the Bible, which has for a large part, been the foundation of other national traditions. These included such things as honor and respect for the family, diligent work ethics, absolute values of right and wrong, honesty in business practices, wholesomeness in leadership, respect toward authority, moderation rather than excess, marriage as a prerequisite before having sex or bearing children, a family which consists of both a father and mother, taking responsibility to provide for our own — such as one’s spouse, family and children, and so forth.
*This is from an article about traditional values definition

Traditionally we knew families often didn't have a father or mother because the mother might die in child birth or whatever or the father could die from a work accident or whatever. Traditionally we had what we today call "extended family" helping us. Sex before marriage has always been common. And it used to be considered right to drink and smoke at work and sexually harass women. Domestic rape didn't even exist as a concept as it was traditionally expected to be the "wifely duty" to give when he wants sex.

 

[nPeace]

I think I could easily prove it.

They are right now, as we speak, working to pass all kinds of anti-transgender bills all across the country. The very same thing they did with anti-gay bills in the past, before it finally became acceptable to be gay. And what's the other non-issue they're all hung up on at the moment? Critical race theory being taught to young children which it is not, and never was, as that is a graduate level college course. Heck, they just banned a bunch of math textbooks in Florida based on some insane notion that they're pushing critical race theory onto children. It's nonsense.


That sounds about right.
The problem is that "traditional values" are overrated and often discriminatory. "Traditional values" say that women shouldn't have the right to vote, or to own property. "Traditional values" say that gay people shouldn't exist and should just spend their lives pretending to be something they're not. "Traditional values" say that men can beat their wives. "Traditional values" say that black people aren't full human beings. Perhaps you can see why some people think social and cultural progress is a necessity.



Why should I win the fight against bigotry and discrimination? Hmmm ....

I think you just highlighted the problem.
No universal standard, or set laws of morality means a sytem where every man fights for his own right to decide right or wrong, and where one holds to the view, there is no right or wrong...
That's the problem.
It began about 6,000 years ago.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What are you saying? No laws except the law of "freedom"?

No, I'm saying that American traditions and norms mean that no one gets to unjustly interfere with the life of another. Science and medicine do not agree with the Alabama bill, nor do ethical and moral considerations. That means it's not the place of the state to tell people no on this. We are all guaranteed life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But bills such as this needless infringe upon the life and liberty of others, making it inherently anti-American.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Traditionally we knew families often didn't have a father or mother because the mother might die in child birth or whatever or the father could die from a work accident or whatever. Traditionally we had what we today call "extended family" helping us. Sex before marriage has always been common. And it used to be considered right to drink and smoke at work and sexually harass women. Domestic rape didn't even exist as a concept as it was traditionally expected to be the "wifely duty" to give when he wants sex.

Actually the Husband is supposed to love his wife and take care of her like his own body, the wife is supposed respect her husband. It was mutual submission to each other not one ruling and dominating the other.
I wouldn’t say sex before marriage was a good thing considering the outcome and consequences of that. We see the consequences today in unwanted pregnancy and disease.
Extended family helping each other and especially children taking care of their elderly parents is a good thing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The things you mentioned were perversions

They were traditions for a very long time.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, it is a fight between people.

On one side you have Politicians who do not have any medical expertise on this issue or any other.

And on the other side you have the medical and scientific community who have studied this issue.

On one side you have Politicians making laws for people they know nothing about.

And on the other side you have families and doctors with deep intimate understanding of these young people and what they are going through.


Can you not see that the two sides are not equal? Can you not see that one side obviously has greater understanding than the other?

I do not see the sides you created.
All rulers have advisors. Some of the advisors do seek scientific data.

The problem is, when there is conflicting data, the Atheists always 1,000 % of the time, promotes the one that suits him, as the 'science'... even though no consensus exists.

So it's a fight between right and wrong - good and bad, and everyone has an opinion.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think you just highlighted the problem.
No universal standard, or set laws of morality means a sytem where every man fights for his own right to decide right or wrong, and where one holds to the view, there is no right or wrong...
That's the problem.
It began about 6,000 years ago.

Bronze age morality should stay in the bronze age. We've learned a lot since then.

I don't know of anyone who holds that view that "there is no right or wrong."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Actually the Husband is supposed to love his wife and take care of her like his own body, the wife is supposed respect her husband. It was mutual submission to each other not one ruling and dominating the other.
I wouldn’t say sex before marriage was a good thing considering the outcome and consequences of that. We see the consequences today in unwanted pregnancy and disease.
Extended family helping each other and especially children taking care of their elderly parents is a good thing.

Yeah, that's not equality. Submission? Pfft.
Thanks for reinforcing my point again.