Alabama passes bill making some transgender healthcare a felony

[Subduction Zone]

You ma have overlooked the use of the world "surgery" in their post.

"Parental support or not, this surgery should not be done until someone is fully able to understand the consequences. It is my recommendation that people begin transition at 18"


Guidelines say such surgery generally should be reserved for those aged 18 and older.

https://www-pbs-org.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health/what-medical-treatments-do-transgender-youth-get?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#amp_tf=From %1$s&aoh=16625018779620&referrer=https://www.google.com&ampshare=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/what-medical-treatments-do-transgender-youth-get

It looks like that person was confused. One begins transition long before surgery. Hormone blockers, are the first step for teens going through puberty. With hormone blockers one can change one's mind. And it prevents what would be irreversible damage for children that are trans.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm against hormone blockers for minors as well, for the record.

Then don't let your minor have them. We were talking about surgery though, weren't we.

I don't know why you feel you should be making personal medical decisions for other people for whom you know nothing about nor are qualified to diagnose and/or treat.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Being large and having genuine medical concerns relating to the weight of breasts, isn't the same thing as having a double mastectomy because... gender issues.

Who are you to determine that for someone else?

Oh and you didn't answer my question about your medical qualifications.

 

[Reyn]

Then don't let your minor have them. We were talking about surgery though, weren't we.

I don't know why you feel you should be making personal medical decisions for other people for whom you know nothing about nor are qualified to diagnose and/or treat.

I have made it clear that I'm against puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for minors, for reason of gender identity. I've made no claims about qualifications. I've said nothing other than that I am personally against transition for minors.

 

[setarcos]

I'm under the impression it's abuse to not reaffirm someone's expressed gender identity.

The problem as I see it is...how do you confirm something with somewhat permanent procedures like surgery when the human is still developing an identity.
How do we discern between youthful phases of imaginative expression versus permanent expressions of identity?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have made it clear that I'm against puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for minors, for reason of gender identity. I've made no claims about qualifications. I've said nothing other than that I am personally against transition for minors.

Hormone blockers, technically speaking, are not a part of transition. They are a way of delaying biological processes so that the individual, once they are no longer a minor, can make an informed decision whether or not to transition.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The problem as I see it is...how do you confirm something with somewhat permanent procedures like surgery when the human is still developing an identity.
How do we discern between youthful phases of imaginative expression versus permanent expressions of identity?

To be fair, these are worthwhile questions, which is why these decisions are made after extensive psychological investigation and evaluation of the child, and that the recommended medical procedure entails that gender-affirming care for minors includes delaying puberty until they can make an informed decision rather than performing anything invasive.

 

[setarcos]

The mind is never "fully developed" just like a personality isn't either.

That is due to external influence not physical identity. If the mind has trouble identifying with its naturally "assigned" gender then why don't we call it what it is....a disfunction of the mind?
Or do we? Why tip toe around stating that it is a disease who's cure might be gender reassignment?

hormone or puberty blockers are easily reversible.

Easily reversible in what way? Can science definitively say that messing with hormone extremes to the point of gender reaffirmation doesn't mess with mental identity causing long term stress in the organism?

Gender reassignment also takes months to years of prior therapy

Might this also be called indoctrination into reaffirming a particular gender choice?

 

[setarcos]

Hormone blockers, technically speaking, are not a part of transition. They are a way of delaying biological processes so that the individual, once they are no longer a minor, can make an informed decision whether or not to transition.

Wouldn't the purposeful delay of biological processes effect the mental state of the individual's identity with gender? How the mind normally identifies itself in relation to its physical characteristics is built over time through these processes. Block them and what do we do to the mind? Haven't we simply created a physical abnormality on top of a mental one then? I mean, how is the individual informed then when its development or lack thereof has been made abnormal?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That is due to external influence not physical identity. If the mind has trouble identifying with its naturally "assigned" gender then why don't we call it what it is....a disfunction of the mind?

Because that would be misinformation. Gender is not a function of the brain, but a social construct, therefore an unwillingness or inability to assign oneself a specific (or no specific) gender is not a dysfunction of the mind. It is a reaction to a social construction, not a reaction to a hard-wired facet of the brain.

Or do we? Why tip toe around stating that it is a disease who's cure might be gender reassignment?

Because often it isn't. There are many ways to transition, and there is no one way to transition that aids all gender non-confirming ideation or behaviour. A treatment can simply be, for example, to not assign a gender to a person at all.

Easily reversible in what way? Can science definitively say that messing with hormone extremes to the point of gender reaffirmation doesn't mess with mental identity causing long term stress in the organism?

That's why testing and examination is necessary. Can science definitively say that injecting people with flu jabs won't lead to spontaneous immolation within the entirety of the human population fifty years from now? Probably not. But they're unlikely to put something into general medical use if there is insufficient evidence of its efficacy and/or significant long-term side-effects. We do know one thing, however: that allowing children to go without any kind of gender-affirming care leads to a significantly higher chance of developing poor mental health, self-abuse and suicide.

Might this also be called indoctrination into reaffirming a particular gender choice?

It might be, if you were very weird. You wouldn't call months of therapy leading to the conclusion that you have bipolar disorder "indoctrination into reaffirming a particular mental health state", would you?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Wouldn't the purposeful delay of biological processes effect the mental state of the individual's identity with gender? How the mind normally identifies itself in relation to its physical characteristics is built over time through these processes. Block them and what do we do to the mind? Haven't we simply created a physical abnormality on top of a mental one then? I mean, how is the individual informed then when its development or lack thereof has been made abnormal?

The effects of hormone blockers are completely reversible. All you have to do is stop taking them and you have a puberty in line with your biological sex.

I really don't see why you're making such a fuss over this. Doctors make medical prescriptions for children all the time that have significant impacts of their mental states and biology. How is this any different to, say, putting a child diagnosed with ADHD on medication? Or anti-depressants? Or performing any kind of invasive surgery? I can't help but feel like your concern is not with the consequences of the medical intervention, otherwise you would hand-wring over these things all equally, but with something else.

 

[Reyn]

Hormone blockers, technically speaking, are not a part of transition. They are a way of delaying biological processes so that the individual, once they are no longer a minor, can make an informed decision whether or not to transition.

Yes and here is the issue with those drugs. They inhibit a natural biological process, which shape the developing brain and body in a rather specific way. True, genitals are involved. However, so are a lot of other things. It is my firm position that children should go through a natural puberty and if they still wish to pursue transition at 18, they can begin that road legally.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes and here is the issue with those drugs. They inhibit a natural biological process, which shape the developing brain and body in a rather specific way. True, genitals are involved. However, so are a lot of other things. It is my firm position that children should go through a natural puberty and if they still wish to pursue transition at 18, they can begin that road legally.

Many medical treatments interfere with biological processes. This is just a nonsensical argument unless you also deny your child any medication or any invasive medical procedure whatsoever. The distinction you're making is arbitrary. All you would really be doing is harming your own child by forcing them to go through a puberty that does not align with their gender - something that leads to a significant statistical increase in suicide and suicidal ideation among trans people - for no reason whatsoever.

Literally, the only reason you would actively seek to go against a medical professional's prescription of puberty blockers (provided they had sufficient cause to prescribe them) is if you actively wanted your child to suffer.

 

[setarcos]

these are worthwhile questions, which is why these decisions are made after extensive psychological investigation and evaluation of the child

You can only evaluate the psychology of a child at the point of the child's development when they are evaluated. They are still developing by definition. So how is a psychological investigation going to accurately determine future events such as gender identity?
We are dealing with humans here and at best it would be a guess based on statistical analysis of normal development. Of course you have to have a depiction of what "normal" is though. And how do we determine normal when anything goes and everything is considered normal?

the recommended medical procedure entails that gender-affirming care for minors includes delaying puberty until they can make an informed decision rather than performing anything invasive.

What's an informed decision? One that reaffirms the so called "gender-affirming" care? If a boy wants to act/dress/whatever like a girl the gender affirmation is to treat the boy like a normal girl correct? However in doing so your reaffirming and reinforcing what may be an aberration in childish imagination or defective identity which may enforce a "misinformed" choice of gender identity causing the organism sustained stress throughout its life.
I sympathize with these people. I really do. But why do we seek to normalize something that isn't normal in the sense that it causes the organism sustained stress who's attempted cure is therapy, hormone treatment and or surgery?
I worry for humanities future. Last I checked, there are now nearly a hundred different gender identities recognized by someone, including; male, female, transgender, gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, third gender, and on and on...plus respective pronouns.
Society is fragmenting into anything goes and nothing is normal because everything is normal. This can't possibly have a good effect on our mental stability.

 

[Reyn]

Many medical treatments interfere with biological processes. This is just a nonsensical argument unless you also deny your child any medication or any invasive medical procedure whatsoever. The distinction you're making is arbitrary. All you would really be doing is harming your own child by forcing them to go through a puberty that does not align with their gender - something that leads to a significant statistical increase in suicide and suicidal ideation among trans people - for no reason whatsoever.

Literally, the only reason you would actively seek to go against a medical professional's prescription of puberty blockers (provided they had sufficient cause to prescribe them) is if you actively wanted your child to suffer.

Yes, necessary procedures do have unpleasant side effects. However, the side effects are less of a concern than the thing being treated. In this case, the thing isn't being treated at all. If someone is suicidal, they should be institutionalized because they are a danger to themselves. Choosing not to inhibit natural puberty is resulting in suicidal minors? Again, place them in an institution and treat them. No, not by giving them puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You can only evaluate the psychology of a child at the point of the child's development when they are evaluated. They are still developing by definition. So how is a psychological investigation going to accurately determine future events such as gender identity?

It doesn't. Did you not read what I wrote?

Gender-affirming care for minors is focused not on assuming the gender identity long term, but on determining if the psychology and behaviour of the child indicates persistent and distinct signs of trans or gender-conforming behaviour sufficient to prescribe delaying a child's puberty until they can make an informed decision about their gender once they are adults. They DON'T determine that a minor will be trans later in life. They don't make any determinations, beyond basic socialized gender or non-gender affirming care, to assign gender to the child with a notion of it later being the gender they will be assigned.

We are dealing with humans here and at best it would be a guess based on statistical analysis of normal development. Of course you have to have a depiction of what "normal" is though. And how do we determine normal when anything goes and everything is considered normal?

These are not arguments against transition or gender affirming care for minors. This is literally an argument against all of prescribed or symptom-based medicine.

What's an informed decision? One that reaffirms the so called "gender-affirming" care?

Erm... No.

You seriously don't know what is meant by an informed decision? It's a conclusion reached by a sufficiently informed adult.

If a boy wants to act/dress/whatever like a girl the gender affirmation is to treat the boy like a normal girl correct?

Again... No.

I find it perplexing that you express ignorance of the medical field one minute and then make an assertion like this the next. No, the correct gender affirming care for "a boy who acts like a girl" is not to immediately designate them female. A boy can act feminine and still be a boy. The field of trans psychology looks a bit more in depth than that.

However in doing so your reaffirming and reinforcing what may be an aberration in childish imagination or defective identity which may enforce a "misinformed" choice of gender identity causing the organism sustained stress throughout its life.

Once again, see above.

And ever it this mischaracterization were true, how would it be any different to any other form of socialization? When was I given the choice to be a boy?

I sympathize with these people. I really do. But why do we seek to normalize something that isn't normal in the sense that it causes the organism sustained stress who's attempted cure is therapy, hormone treatment and or surgery?

Because that's literally what we do with anything else. Seriously. There is no reason not to. The only consequence of the removal or denial of gender-affirming care is more people committing suicide, and the only consequence of widespread gender-affirming care is more openly trans or non-binary people... Do you fail to see which one is preferable?

I worry for humanities future. Last I checked, there are now nearly a hundred different gender identities recognized by someone, including; male, female, transgender, gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, third gender, and on and on...plus respective pronouns.
Society is fragmenting into anything goes and nothing is normal because everything is normal. This can't possibly have a good effect on our mental stability.

See, it's this kind of hand-wringing that indicates to me that your real interest is not the well-being of people, but hatred and fear of trans people.

No, trans people are not a threat to humanity..l

 

[setarcos]

The effects of hormone blockers are completely reversible. All you have to do is stop taking them and you have a puberty in line with your biological sex.

The key here I think is..."in line with your biological sex". It is known that delayed puberty in humans can effect ones psychological state. What are you saying here anyway? Stop taking them and you'll go back to normal? Why take them in the first place? Why delay ones "natural" pubescent development? How do you think the mind comes to normally identify with the body? We may be creating disease where none would have been before.

I really don't see why you're making such a fuss over this.

Because the worlds f'ed up enough as it is. It irks me that we may be going out of our way to make it more f'ed up. I'm also trying to understand myself and why I feel
such a distaste for gender reassignment, and certain sexual preferences. I like to think that I separate the people from their "preferences" and can treat everyone with respect. More and more it seems though that instead of the people its their preferences that are being constantly paraded around and dangled in my face as if I'm obligated to acknowledged that anything that you feel like doing, as long as no one "that you know of" gets hurt, is perfectly normal and good. We seem to have no agreed upon standard by which normal is judged any more. I think we're seeing the consequences of this in society these days.

Doctors make medical prescriptions for children all the time that have significant impacts of their mental states and biology. How is this any different to, say, putting a child diagnosed with ADHD on medication? Or anti-depressants? Or performing any kind of invasive surgery?

I never said that they don't. Doctors usually prescribe these things to alleviate serious problems, or at least I hope so, that the organism has developed which has caused it severe stress. We don't encourage our children to freely choose to have ADHD or depression or surgery do we? When is the last time a 10 year old was consulted on whether or not a particular surgery would alleviate their symptoms?

I can't help but feel like your concern is not with the consequences of the medical intervention, otherwise you would hand-wring over these things all equally, but with something else.

Here's my concern. Society seems so hell bent on considering all these things normal and on accommodating and coddling that normality that we seem to be spending precious little time on recognizing these things as a disease of the mind whose cause needs to be rooted out and prevented.
This is what baffles me. If a procedure were developed tomorrow which could identify a defect in the brain and prevent its activation which would cure any disparity between the mind and its identity with its body or other aberrant sextual preferences the majority of the world would probably ban its use. Because society in general has been and is being indoctrinated into believing that these things are somehow normal and perfectly harmless. Society is being taught that the person and the disease are one and the same and if you attack the one you attack the other. Ironically and sadly this is often the case since we are constantly told the two are inseparable.
Once an organism identifies itself with its behavior it will naturally seek survival in defending both. There in lies the problem. Society doesn't seek to cure homosexuality for instance - Some have tried in horrible and condemnable ways unfortunately. - because society doesn't think homosexuality needs cured.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, necessary procedures do have unpleasant side effects. However, the side effects are less of a concern than the thing being treated. In this case, the thing isn't being treated at all. If someone is suicidal, they should be institutionalized because they are a danger to themselves.

This statement really does show you up. Suicidal ideation is not improved by institutionalisation, and the idea that you think the best response to someone being suicidal because people refuse to affirm their gender identity or because they cannot get gender-affirming care is to institutionalise them just proves that you are not looking at this subject from a place of care but a place of just plain hating trans people.

Choosing not to inhibit natural puberty is resulting in suicidal minors?

That is not what I wrote. Please re-read my posts.

Again, place them in an institution and treat them. No, not by giving them puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

I am very glad people like you no longer exist in medicine.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The key here I think is..."in line with your biological sex". It is known that delayed puberty in humans can effect ones psychological state.

Again, this is not an argument against puberty blockers. It is an argument against literally all of medicine. ADHD meds also affect a child's psychological state, yet I do not see you saying they should not be prescribed to children.

What are you saying here anyway? Stop taking them and you'll go back to normal? Why take them in the first place?

I have already explained this twice. Go back and read what I wrote about the purpose and function of hormone blockers.

Why delay ones "natural" pubescent development?

See above. Are you even reading my posts?

How do you think the mind comes to normally identify with the body? We may be creating disease where none would have been before.

Once again, this is just hand-wringing over nothing without any kind of basis. There is zero evidence to suggest puberty blockers harms long term mental or physical health.

Because the worlds f'ed up enough as it is. It irks me that we may be going out of our way to make it more f'ed up.

Okay, you're done.

If less trans and non-binary people committing suicide is a "more f'ed up world" to you, then you should do the right thing and exclude yourself from any discussions about how to make the world better.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then don't let your minor have them. We were talking about surgery though, weren't we.

I don't know why you feel you should be making personal medical decisions for other people for whom you know nothing about nor are qualified to diagnose and/or treat.

That's at least 99.999% of Conservative Christians when it comes to anything and everything LGBT. But, it's really nothing new. For about two thousand years they've been severely misrepresenting Judaism and stating as a fact all manner of fallacies about the Jews. They do it to Muslims. They do it to themselves. It's like they found a way to pump the Dunning-Kruger effect full of steroids.