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Alabama passes bill making some transgender healthcare a felony

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
But a new study from the San Francisco Fed shows it was Biden himself who put America on this grim trajectory.

Specifically, it was the massive $1.9 trillion stimulus dumped into the US economy in early 2021 by the president’s American Rescue Plan.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...y-shows-biden-owns-our-economic-disaster/amp/
And yet this is far bigger than Biden. These problems would be happening regardless of who is in office. America isn't special and it isn't insulated from global issues.
How Food and Energy are Driving the Global Inflation Surge
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I wonder how many objected to what Congress passed and Biden signed and yet were all fine & dandy with Trump's massive tax break that did little to help the poor and middle-income families but tons to help billionaires and millionaires?

Gee, why does the word "hypocrisy" come to, mind, and since when did Jesus teach that we need to help the wealthy but not the poor?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Because most people buy a cheap gun for home defense, and one that's easier to conceal.
There are a LOT of hunters that do not live in the country. And not all farmers hunt. You seem to have a strange belief about people that live in cities. Too bad that you do not have the experience of living in the city and living in the country. You appear to have only one perspective.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
There are a LOT of hunters that do not live in the country. And not all farmers hunt. You seem to have a strange belief about people that live in cities. Too bad that you do not have the experience of living in the city and living in the country. You appear to have only one perspective.
Even people living in the larger towns that I've met are not as trustworthy as your average redneck, in my experience. The larger the town, the more likely they are to be people who care little about helping others. Locally, I can't think of hardly any country people I would not trust to have my back, even if they are a little rough. The city transplants I'm just not sure about. If things go bad, the locals will band together and help the less fortunate. When the same thing happens in cities, you see a lot of people just living out survival of the fittest and taking what they want.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Even people living in the larger towns that I've met are not as trustworthy as your average redneck, in my experience. The larger the town, the more likely they are to be people who care little about helping others. Locally, I can't think of hardly any country people I would not trust to have my back, even if they are a little rough. The city transplants I'm just not sure about. If things go bad, the locals will band together and help the less fortunate. When the same thing happens in cities, you see a lot of people just living out survival of the fittest and taking what they want.
You are still living in a fantasy. If society comes to an end we are all toast. Anyone suspected of having a hidden stash is more at risk than others.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And that's what your atheism gives you, no hope in the goodness of humanity.
No. Atheism gives one reality. One can understand that "prepping" is a negative activity when it comes to society. Atheist know what we have to work our problems out ourselves. Our invisible friend is not going to help us.

And that sort of false claim about others tells us far more about you than it does about the people that you oppose.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
One can understand that "prepping" is a negative activity when it comes to society.
Nonsense. If you are prepared you can help others. This is just common sense that our grandparents understood. They had a root cellar and a woodshed and a smokehouse because they knew that having enough food to get you through the winter was just smart planning. Somehow we have become so dumb that we mock people for having some extra recourses in case the grocery store isn't available, in case the gas station doesn't have gas, and so on.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Nonsense. If you are prepared you can help others. This is just common sense that our grandparents understood. They had a root cellar and a woodshed and a smokehouse because they knew that having enough food to get you through the winter was just smart planning. Somehow we have become so dumb that we mock people for having some extra recourses in case the grocery store isn't available, in case the gas station doesn't have gas, and so on.
That is just an excuse that you give yourself. Your earlier attitude was "it's all mine". Unless you have warehouses of food you can't help anyone, you can only be a target.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Um...gender is demonstrably a function assigned by natural processes not by social construct.
Nope. That's sex.

How we behave towards genders, how we assign certain traditional roles to genders, how we choose to identify genders externally is social constructs. What we say a gender is, what we say a gender feels like, what we say a gender does, may be social constructs but what a person's actual conception of what those things would be like if they were actually made the opposite gender remains a mental construct of their mind based somewhat on the sensory inputs that mind has been informed of through the brains processing of the sensory inputs of the gender nature assigned them.
What you have just described is entirely what gender is.

If...we stick to strictly physical phenomena here [snip]
Since we're talking about gender, which is a sociological - not a physical - phenomena, limiting ourselves to discussions of only the physical means are not actually talking about the same thing.

Again....people can't magically assign their own gender because they are unwilling to accept the one nature has given them.
Nature doesn't assign gender. Nature assigns sex. We assign gender. Gender is a form of social expression that is often associated with sex, but is not entirely related.

Change the pronouns all you want, the gender stays the same unless their is a radical directed intervention such as surgery.
This is still false no matter how many times you repeat it.

Even then you are not left with a natural gender. You are left with an artificially produced one.
All gender is artificially produced. That's why it's a social construct.

For instance is pornography detrimental to society overall. Is bestiality? Is satanic sacrifice of a willing participant? Are laws necessary for civil society? Might how we behave in private inform how we contribute to or behave in society? Where do we draw the line? Should there be a line?
Since there is no moral issue with allowing people to change or identify as certain genders, I fail to see how this hand-wringing is relevant.

If it is a matter of inability then aren't we back to having a disfunction of the mind or the senses it is informed by? Like body dysmorphia?
Except dysmorphia is not a requirement to be trans. Dysmorphia is a product of self-identification clashing with expectations and self-perception. It is a consequence of rigid social expectations on gender, not a natural dysfunction of the brain.

Certain facets are necessarily hardwired into the brain. One of those facets is body identity which includes its gender.
Sure. But this is also true of trans people. People can look at their own body and identify it as "lacking" or "wrong" in some fundamental way. As a gender abolitionist, I see this as a symptom of a societal ill that the sociological concept of gender forces on people.

It these things weren't hard wired we couldn't function normally. We couldn't even walk, or raise a cup to our mouths and take a drink. A male wouldn't be able to produce an erection at the appropriate time to attempt reproduction.
This is just a baseless statement.

Science to my knowledge doesn't, or shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the functioning of a human unless it is abnormal and the interference is in pursuit of lessening the stress of the organism by giving it back a degree of normalcy.
See, the words "normal" and "normalcy" are doing a lot of work in this statement. Not too long ago, "normal" also meant "straight", and anyone who exhibited "non-straight" tendencies would have been considered in the exact same terms - as a person with something wrong with them that requires correction in order to render them "normal". See also the history of racism, in which it was often decreed that "white" was the "normal" (or, to be more accurate, "preferred") state that all other races needed to aspire to build towards or be considered lesser. In the case of trans people, the "normal" that we should be referring to is NORMALIZATION, i.e: the idea that being trans is socially accepted, in much the same way that homosexuality is (in some places...). The dysfunctions that often coincide with being trans are not an inherent facet of being trans, but most often a result of conditions brough about by social pressure and exclusion - in much the same way that the higher rates of depression and suicide in homosexuals isn't due to some "inherent self-hate gene" within gay people, but a result of gay people simply experiencing way more exclusion, cruelty and other factors that can lead to poor mental health than straight people.

I would hope that science in general wouldn't arbitrarily inject normal, healthy, people just to see what would happen unless it were to prevent something in the future which may change that state in the person. So we are back to the necessity of testing and examining an organism that is in an abnormal state in order to best
Agreed. Which is why I support science in its current understanding of trans people, and its consensus opinion on gender-affirming care.

The lesser of two evils so to speak perhaps. However, again, if the child gets gender-affirming care we may be affirming the progression of an abnormality not alleviating its negative affects.
This is literally true of any kind of care or therapy. Again, once you get rid of the idea that trans = abnormal, you can deal with this incongruity quite easily.

And we certainly aren't gender-affirming because the child is developing normally. If we were then every child would need gender-reaffirmation. What we're basically doing is affirming what a child's desires subject to a dysmorphic identity dictates as normal. Are we treating the problem, or encouraging its development?
Once again, your prescription on this matter isn't really relevant because you're talking about a complex issue with medical expertise and treatment that are far more nuanced and complicated than you think. And yet I doubt you would have this level of concern over therapy for depression, or invasive treatment for paediatric cancer. I advise you speak to an actual doctor who is knowledgeable about the issue, because I cannot allay your fears in this regard beyond assuring you that the experts involved aren't determining the best course of treatment arbitrarily.

Even up to today with societies ever increasing acceptance of homosexuality and umpteen gender identities poor mental health, self abuse, and suicide continues to increase among these people not decrease as one would expect.
This is simply not true. Gender-affirming care and social acceptance of homosexuality DECREASE suicide rates.

We might ask what is the source of these stresses?
Homophobia and transphobia.

Lol, no because one usually doesn't get a specific therapy until after a diagnosis or suspected diagnosis. Be that as it may the therapy imparted is usually to alleviate the bipolar disorder not encourage its development. And again we are back to a disorder, not normal development. So the question is what is gender-affirmation treating and how is it treating it so that the child may develop normally? Do we have a normal anymore?
Once again, the disorder is not "being trans". The disorder is the dysphoria. The treatment for that is gender-affirming care.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
That is bogus trash.
1. What is meant by persistent and distinct? How is the appropriate time frame determined? A child continues to develop character and change perspective personality through puberty and beyond.
Once again, you're going to have to direct these queries at the entire field of medicine.

"What is meant by "persistent and distinct" signs of bipolar disorder? How do you know it's not just a case of the blues?"

Oh, gee, it's almost as if we have people determine these things through careful observation and research rather than just throwing darts at a board.

And the fact that puberty blockers are one of the treatments used is specifically BECAUSE gendered and non-gender conforming ideation and behaviours before adulthood do not necessarily mean that an individual will be trans as an adult. The whole point of puberty blockers is so that the individual can decide for themselves without the potential of going through puberty (which can be a decisive period of development that dovetails with increased suicide risk for those going through puberty as a biological sex that does not match their gender). The fact that people can change during this period is precisely the point of prescribing blockers rather than going ahead with any potential further gender-corrective procedures. It's to ensure these decisions are made by adults, not children.

2. Puberty is an important component in mental development as much as physical development. To impair its normal development would effect the supposed impartial phycological observation of the child which would skew the affirmation which ironically is what determines the decision to delay puberty to begin with. Somewhat circular reasoning.
You're right. Going through a male puberty statistically makes an individual far more likely to identify as male regardless of whether or not that is actually true or beneficial to them - and it also results in a lot of trans people, who have been forced through a male puberty, find it almost impossible to correct themselves, leading to significantly worse mental health and suicide statistics. The fact that puberty has this impact is exactly why delaying it can be helpful to a trans person. There is absolutely zero evidence that puberty blockers result in some kind of bias towards "becoming" trans.

3. What is the relationship between going through puberty and becoming an adult? How are they defining Adult and puberty? Typically the two stages of development are related.
Nope. In the vast majority of cases, adulthood is a legal distinction defined by age, not puberty. When you're buying alcohol or buying your first car, they don't typically ask to have a look down your pants to see if you're packing pubic hairs before making the sale.

Can you be a normal adult without going through puberty so you can then make an adult decision?
Yes.

Arguably no.
Based on...?

If that were true what does delaying puberty do since delaying puberty doesn't change gender. The physical equipment has already differentiated itself into boy and girl parts normally. And if one can make an informed decision regardless of going through puberty first what benefit is given by delaying puberty?
See above.

4. Any artificial disruption of these normal processes eliminates the possibility of an impartial psychological analysis of the child and would most probably alter the future of the child's development which would possibly have taken a different path if allowed to .
Once again, I am bewildered by the fact that a few posts ago you displayed total ignorance of gender affirming care, and now suddenly you're an expert on sexual development.

Please provide medical sources to indicate the truth of these claims.

Apparently you didn't get my meaning. How do we impartially determine the adult has been sufficiently informed by delaying puberty?
You seem confused. Delaying puberty doesn't "inform" them. It gives them time to BECOME informed.

How does delaying puberty make that adult more sufficiently informed impartially?
Again, that is not the point of puberty blockers.

What would happen is you make an observation previous to puberty and then delay puberty so that the person makes a prepubescent decision. That's indoctrination.
Gee, that sure would be bad. Good thing we have doctors, psychologists and all manner of other experts available whose whole job is to not let that happen.

I see your resorting to ad hominin attacks more often.:rolleyes:
You don't know what an ad hominem is.

This is my point. And not really. "Trans" psychology still has to establish its observations based upon some normal definitions of boy and girl.
No, it doesn't. What we identify as and what we normalize are two different things. A person can identify with a gender without adhering to any of the things we consider "normal" to associate with that particular gender. It's purely a matter of self-identification.

What are they observing to make their determinations? What is the criteria to base judgements upon? Societal definitions of how a boy or girl should act? Couldn't be simply gender because that would be physically obvious in a normal human.
Again, you might as well be asking how we identify paediatric bipolar disorder, or autism, or how we determine specialized care, or who belongs in remedial or advanced classes. I suggest you ask the medical experts, because this is an extremely complicated subject with literally millions of different, individual cases. There is no simple yardstick doctors use to separate the "trans" from the "not trans".

So again.....like I was saying, it is notoriously difficult if not impossible to determine future adult characteristics and preferences based upon prepubescent observations.
Good thing we assign many experts to determining it and then allowing each individual to make determinations for themselves.

?? What about being a boy do you wish to be able to choose? Gender itself if your not a boy? Take up your grievance with nature. You want to wear boys cloths? Go ahead. What choices do you mean? No one is saying socialization doesn't take place. What I am saying is that socialization doesn't dictate your gender nor how you mentally relate to your physical body.
My gender was assigned at birth. All through my life I was told I was a boy. Nobody ever told me I could be a girl if I wanted, or that I could wear dresses, or like dolls, or do anything specifically associated with being female. This was actively discouraged in me from birth.

So, by your standards, I was indoctrinated into being male, correct?

That's ridiculous. Since when do we seek to normalize disease, or stress in humanity?
The reason not to is that once you normalize a disease you stop seeking to alleviate the distress it causes in the organism
Being trans isn't a disease. And the fact that we seek to eliminate pain and stress is exactly why we do gender affirming care with trans people and why we should normalized being trans.

That's a false dichotomy. Correlation does not equate to causation.
So you're just going to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore all of the studies that show that pre-and-post transition trans people have significantly different suicide rates? That gender-affirming care can reduce suicidality in trans people to as much as 1/17th of its previous number?

I would be interested in the study confirming the relation between gender-affirming care and suicide though if you can remember which one.
Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care - PubMed
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As I've indicated elsewhere, I believe the stated purpose of gender-affirming care is dangerous pseudo science in that its methodology in impartial analysis is flawed.
Then you ought to be happy, since you are wrong. It is not dangerous. And unless you believe all of medicine is engaged in some kind of conspiracy, its methodology is sound.

Like I've also said suicide rates continue to rise not fall in these subgroups.
Unless they receive proper care. In which case every study I have seen shows a decrease.

One consequence of gender-affirming care may vary well be an increase in amount of distress in the trans or non-binary (whatever that means) society not a lessoning overall.
Good thing the evidence is contrary to that.

I don't however have to like a persons predilection to enjoying sodomy or bestiality for instance. Nor do I have to like the fact that some people seem to be born into a gender that their mind tells them is the wrong one which causes them stress.
Please learn what "gender" is. You are not "born into" a gender. You are confusing sex and gender.

My statements weren't meant to indicate I'm transphobic or homophobic or whatever gender type phobic and afraid of that group. I am not. Nor, like I've been trying to say, do I hate the person that is distressed with these things. I'm friends with several different types. I don't like their preferences though. Smoking is bad for you. I hate smoking. I'm friends with many smokers though. I do hate it, right or wrong, when those that smoke are proud of it though I must admit.
The difference being that people aren't born smoking, and smoking isn't something that people can't do anything about, and smokers aren't hated to the extent that they are constantly under threat of violence, social isolation and arrest around the world simply for something they cannot help.

If you can understand why someone saying "I don't hate or fear black people, I just don't like their preference for being black, and I think we ought to treat them like their being black is a problem and try to normalize the idea of being non-black" sounds like a racist, you can understand why the above statement makes you sound like a transphobe and a homophobe.

Why is it when someone speaks out against certain things its always assumed that they are scared or phobic?
Not always. For example, your dislike of smokers is perfectly reasonable. It's your dislike of an innate facet of certain people because of things that they cannot control that negative labels are attached to you.

I consider trans people and the promulgation of gender "vagueness", and normalized sexual deviancy by disbanding definitions of normalcy a symptom of what is a threat to society though.
Then be relieved, because you're just wrong.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
No, they give cross-sex hormones to 13-15 year olds. You'll find young teens talking about it on places like Reddit. There's not really any standards for this and doctors basically do whatever they please. And these children do end up permanently sterilized, even more so than I have after 8 years on testosterone. They never go through a natal puberty so their reproductive organs never develop. I doubt they're even capable of orgasm or having sex. It causes complications even when they're trying to have genital surgery because there's not enough tissue to use. And these doctors are lying when they say it's totally safe or reversible. They have no clue if it is. There's no long term studies on this. There's barely studies about adult transsexuals and the impact of transitioning on us. These children are experiments and these doctors just have $$$$$ in their eyes. I suspect these kids will end up with neurological damage because their brains don't develop normally due to the puberty blockers and a host of other health problems.
I, too, go to Reddit for all my extensive medical studies and case reviews.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
This is beginning to anger me. I have not, nor will I ever label myself and others who don't have gender dysphoria as cis. I'm female, that's my sex/gender. I recommend anyone else who doesn't have gender dysphoria, refuse the cis label as well. After all, it's because we're swallowing the load these people are producing that all this is happening to begin with. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.
???

What's wrong with being cis? "Cis" just means "non-trans". Why would being labelled as someone who isn't trans anger you? Do you object to literally ALL forms of categorization? Or do you feel like there should only be words that categorize people OTHER than you?

I am genuinely curious.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Ha, it is Christians who believe in Armageddon. And why do Christians think it is just? Because humanity is rotten.

Atheists have little hope in theists who refuse to acnowledge facts and reason.
We believe that God will remake this world and that a large segment of humanity will continue.
 

Reyn

The Hungry Abyss
???

What's wrong with being cis? "Cis" just means "non-trans". Why would being labelled as someone who isn't trans anger you? Do you object to literally ALL forms of categorization? Or do you feel like there should only be words that categorize people OTHER than you?

I am genuinely curious.
I’m a woman and there should exist no questions about whether I was born that way or not. Simply put, trans women are not women.
 
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