I don't care.
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Alarming Report: 1,400 Kids Sexually Exploited In UK Town
- Thread starter Poeticus
- Start date
I don't care.
And I have been following cases here in my own country for many years! I am categorically not saying that children are being removed from families for no reason: Im saying children are being taken from loving and caring parents for trivial reasons often for political correct or ideologically motivated reasons or even through general ineptness. We have social workers straight out of university that would have done better for themselves if theyd experienced a bit more of what the world is really like before taking up their posts, and senior social workers that all have the same middle class, liberal-left world-view in which an enforced diversity doctrine pervades every thought and action.
With respect your line of argument is wrongheaded. For heavens sake, nobody is claiming that sex abuse in England is limited to Pakistani men (note: not Pakistani communities). Indeed there is squeamishness in our hopeless Social Services due to the tragic Baby P fiasco and many cases where social workers should have acted but didnt or snatched children from their homes and scandalously gave them away for adoption on the most flimsy of evidence. But our Social Services departments, police and Local Government agencies are paralysed with fear at being dubbed Islamaphobic and sought to explain away the irrefutable evidence that is now in the public domain by doing precisely what you are doing, denying that large number of sex abuse cases in a specific area was perpetrated by mainly Pakistani males. Nobody in Britain is denying the problem now, not even the general Pakistani community.
The report identifies how officials at Rotherham didnt raise their concerns, admitting they were frightened of being labelled racist because the allegations were levelled at those from a Pakistani heritage. Just think how more frightened was the eleven year-old girl who was gang raped by those men!
The grovelling apologies are beginning to roll in, but shamefully there has only been one resignation to date. The Home Secretary has called for the Police Commissioner to be sacked.
I have reread that sentence and I have not misunderstood it. You agreed that that Pakistani men are well represented(loath that PC terminology) in cases of sex abuse while trying to water down the fact that the perpetrators, grooming and sexually abusing children and young women, were of Pakistani origin. You were trying to make a general point that rape and sex abuse is not confined to ethnic minorities. That response is fatuous and disingenuous since it is an argument that nobody is making.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Is your real name McCarthy
Alceste
Vagabond
When you say "following cases", what do you mean? In a professional capacity with direct access to highly confidential and sensitive personal information, or in the pages of the Daily Mail?And I have been following cases here in my own country for many years! I am categorically not saying that children are being removed from families ‘for no reason’: I’m saying children are being taken from loving and caring parents for trivial reasons often for political correct or ideologically motivated reasons or even through general ineptness. We have social workers straight out of university that would have done better for themselves if they’d experienced a bit more of what the world is really like before taking up their posts, and senior social workers that all have the same middle class, liberal-left world-view in which an enforced ‘diversity doctrine’ pervades every thought and action.
With respect your line of argument is wrongheaded. For heaven’s sake, nobody is claiming that sex abuse in England is limited to Pakistani men (note: not ‘Pakistani communities’. Indeed there is squeamishness in our hopeless Social Services due to the tragic ‘Baby P’ fiasco and many cases where social workers should have acted but didn’t or snatched children from their homes and scandalously gave them away for adoption on the most flimsy of evidence. But our Social Services departments, police and Local Government agencies are paralysed with fear at being dubbed Islamaphobic and sought to explain away the irrefutable evidence that is now in the public domain by doing precisely what you are doing, denying that large number of sex abuse cases in a specific area was perpetrated by mainly Pakistani males. Nobody in Britain is denying the problem now, not even the general Pakistani community.
The report identifies how officials at Rotherham didn’t raise their concerns, admitting they were ‘frightened’ of being labelled ‘racist’ because the allegations were levelled at those from a Pakistani heritage. Just think how more frightened was the eleven year-old girl who was gang raped by those men!
The grovelling apologies are beginning to roll in, but shamefully there has only been one resignation to date. The Home Secretary has called for the Police Commissioner to be sacked.
I have reread that sentence and I have not misunderstood it. You agreed that that Pakistani men are well ‘represented’(loath that PC terminology) in cases of sex abuse while trying to water down the fact that the perpetrators, grooming and sexually abusing children and young women, were of Pakistani origin. You were trying to make a general point that rape and sex abuse is not confined to ethnic minorities. That response is fatuous and disingenuous since it is an argument that nobody is making.
I'm not denying that worrying about racial tension is one of the reasons authorities gave for doing nothing. I'm observing that had this ring of rapists not been Pakistani the authorities would have found some other excuse for doing nothing. How long did Jimmy Saville molest kids before anybody to do something about it?
It is the very professional capacity of the Councils Social Services and their decisions in removing children from the parents that Im calling into question, the instances of appalling misjudgement or ideologically motivated reasons such as the parents political inclinations, and children being removed from the family home as a precaution because one of the parents had a learning disability. And then there is the reluctance to allow white couples to adopt children of an ethnic background because of an ideological belief that black children must go to black couples. Simon Danczuk, the Labour MP for Rochdale, described in the House of Commons how social workers had encouraged the mass-rape of underage girls in care, on the grounds that it was merely their life choice to become prostitutes. All this is in the public sphere and not simply confined to the tabloid press, despite the courts Family Division suppressing information at the behest of social workers.
Oh really! Remember saying this: To focus on the ethnicity of this particular group of pedophiles as a significant factor is an attribution error. There are pedophile rings in every culture and demographic.
It has been established beyond doubt that there was (and still is) a network of sex abusers and paedophiles of Pakistani descent that groomed, assaulted, trafficked, and raped vulnerable white and mixed race girls and young women. Those are the facts.
That is a sweeping statement and a fallacious generalisation, notwithstanding the evident ineptitude in particular cases. You are conflating a case concerning a celebrity with that of a large scale concentration of cases perpetrated by a single ethnic group. There has not been the slightest evidence that the police or Social Services institutionally find some other excuse for doing nothing; in fact the very opposite is true: they have too often overreacted with vigour and misplaced haste in situations where racism is suspected.
GoodbyeDave
Well-Known Member
Tomorrow night Chanel 4 TV is showing a program about sexual abuse of boys in Pakistan. From the trailer: "A survey revealed that one third of Pakistani men didn't think that sex with an underage boy was bad" and "It's shocking to hear a bus-driver in Pehawar admit he'd raped a dozen boys under the age of ten". Of course, that can't be anything to do with ethnicity, can it? 
Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
Jesus said-
"if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea" (Matt 18:6)
"if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea" (Matt 18:6)
Alceste
Vagabond
You've taken one complete thought that happened to take two sentences to express and broken it in half to attack the bits and pieces. The result is both unintelligible and unrelated to my point, or to anything I've actually said.Also, you've failed to identify where you are getting your information on the incompetence of the UK's social services, which was a very simple question.
I don't think there's much point in my engaging with you further, sorry to say.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
To non-UK posters I would say that Channel 4 News is a trustworthy source of news and staffed by award winning journalists:
Abuse scandal is a 'vastly wider issue' than Rotherham - Channel 4 News
The incompetence and wilful dismissing of complaints by various agencies is apparent to UK viewers following this appalling news. The reasons seem to hinge around fears over upsetting an ethnic group (represented in the council that contains social services) and dismissive attitudes towards the victims.
Abuse scandal is a 'vastly wider issue' than Rotherham - Channel 4 News
The incompetence and wilful dismissing of complaints by various agencies is apparent to UK viewers following this appalling news. The reasons seem to hinge around fears over upsetting an ethnic group (represented in the council that contains social services) and dismissive attitudes towards the victims.
Alceste
Vagabond
I agree, but I would argue that the ethnic group our society is terrified to upset is men, not Pakistanis.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
I am sure that is true.
Men hate to have their boats rocked.
Even more so if they are "Establishment"
This seems to fit with every country and race.
Then to be fair to us both we must examine what you said again. First sentence:
To focus on the ethnicity of this particular group of pedophiles as a significant factor is an attribution error.
Here you are asserting that to focus on the fact that the 1400 reported cases of sexual violence and trafficking of girls and young women in the Rotherham area, which is what this thread is concerned with, is an error. No, Im sorry it is not an error! It is the very reason those disgusting acts were allowed to continue in the first place, because those in authority had a fear of rocking the multicultural boat that prevented them from doing their duty to protect those vulnerable females.
Second sentence: There are pedophile rings in every culture and demographic.
And here you attempt to swing the matter away from the issue to make a general point that nobody in their right mind would deny.
Social Services in the UK has for a good many years been treated as a political football by both the Left and now the current Conservative government. This is not rumour-mongering, exaggerated gossip, or trouble-making by the red top tabloids, but knowledge common to the general public. The following is an article that appeared in the broadsheet Daily Telegraph, and it is not disputed. Believe me Im sad to say I have more of the same from a variety of different sources.
the number of applications by social workers to take children into care was the highest on record. Up 18 per cent on the figure for July last year, many of these 1,013 applications covered more than one child, bringing the number of children being removed from their families in England alone in the past year to nearly 30,000.
What Mr Cameron may not be aware of is the immense groundswell of concern that far too many of these children are now being removed from their parents for no justifiable reason, thanks not least to the policies of his own government. Among the growing mountain of evidence for this was a powerful documentary, Dont Take My Child, broadcast in ITVs Exposure series on July 15 (which can still be seen via a link on the Forced Adoption website). This included interviews with several experts, including a former High Court judge, a top barrister for children, and a very senior social worker, all making the same point: that instead of trying to support families as they used to, too many social workers now seem bent on tearing them apart, not least to meet this governments drive to see more children adopted.
The documentary opens with a terrifying sequence showing a newborn baby being snatched from its distraught parents by Staffordshire social workers and police. Much of what follows recounts the equally harrowing ordeals of other parents, only now free to speak about their experiences because, very unusually, they eventually managed to get their children back. Particularly telling is the story of Lucy Allan, a prospective parliamentary candidate for Mr Camerons Conservative Party, who describes the Kafkaesque nightmare that unfolded when her son was seized by Wandsworth social workers for reasons eventually found to be wholly baseless.
But what gives this documentary unprecedented authority is that these first-hand examples of how sadly the system has become corrupted from its original laudable aims are punctuated by interviews with some of the most senior experts from within the system itself. Sir Mark Hedley, a recently retired family court judge, emphasises that the shift from trying to give parents help to the almost routine removal of their children, has been a major policy change. He is echoed by Bridget Robb, head of the British Association of Social Workers, who says that this government is much harsher than previous governments in favouring the removal of children rather than giving help to birth parents, and that is new. Martha Cover, chair of the Association of Lawyers for Children, makes the same charge: that we are moving away rather rapidly from giving support towards having children placed for adoption, pointing out that Britain is now second only to the US in the proportion of children being removed from their natural family and placed for adoption against their wishes.
That of course is your decision. But I still have plenty to say on the subject.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
The systems in place are inadequate in several ways...
They can not discriminate between genuine concerns, and ones raised in error or by people with their own agenda or in malice.
The process is all or nothing, children are removed from parents or carers before investigation...Just in case.
the courts and police and social services are confused as to the correct actions to take, as the changes have been so frequent and so all embracing that few if any know which hymn sheet they should be singing from. the result is chaos.
There are insufficient trained workers in any of these services to provide a joined up service.
In these circumstances no one wants to take overall responsibility into their own hands or has the authority or funding to do so.
Alceste
Vagabond
Cottage, thanks for providing the context for your remarks on removal. Makes sense now. We left the UK shortly before the Conservatives were elected. The files I was dealing with still reflected major efforts to support whole families before any decision to remove a child, and the children they removed were very badly abused or neglected.
Didn’t realize Cameron had ****** that up as well as everything else.
Didn’t realize Cameron had ****** that up as well as everything else.
Okay. We'll leave it there then.
It seems like common sense to me that ideology and indoctrination influence behavior.
It seems that in this case, the ethnicity of the perps is statistically significant.
Has society come up with no tools to deal with bad ideologies in humane ways? How about ridicule? E.g. "I'm sure you're a fine person, but that ideology of yours is really so last millenium".
It seems that in this case, the ethnicity of the perps is statistically significant.
Has society come up with no tools to deal with bad ideologies in humane ways? How about ridicule? E.g. "I'm sure you're a fine person, but that ideology of yours is really so last millenium".
Alceste
Vagabond
Beware of anything that "seems like common sense". That's my advice.
OTOH, it is certainly true that sexual abuse has significant statistical correlations with a huge variety of factors, including cultural and religious belief. The danger enters into it when we begin to stereotype entire groups as potential rapists.
Try to keep in mind that the most overwhelmingly significant statistical correlation for committing rape across all demographics is being male. Do you, as a man, feel that it would be fair to paint masculinity in general as a backward culture that promotes the sexual abuse of women?
(Spoiler: I don't.)
Beware of anything that "seems like common sense". That's my advice.
OTOH, it is certainly true that sexual abuse has significant statistical correlations with a huge variety of factors, including cultural and religious belief. The danger enters into it when we begin to stereotype entire groups as potential rapists.
Try to keep in mind that the most overwhelmingly significant statistical correlation for committing rape across all demographics is being male. Do you, as a man, feel that it would be fair to paint masculinity in general as a backward culture that promotes the sexual abuse of women?
(Spoiler: I don't.)
I'll direct you to your own tagline. At what point do we say "this edifice over here needs some revamping"?
I get the sense that you're saying that we can't claim any degree of moral expertise, and I think that's just nonsense.
Alceste
Vagabond
I don't claim any degree of moral superiority over vast groups of humanity in one fell swoop. We're talking about 1.6 billion people here - almost a quarter of the world's population. I guess one person's "nonsense" is another's "common sense".
Yes, I do think the edifice of rape culture, which is global, needs restructuring, but I think the moral thing to do is clean up the mess in our own back yards before we start complaining about the neighbours.
I don't claim any degree of moral superiority over vast groups of humanity in one fell swoop. We're talking about 1.6 billion people here - almost a quarter of the world's population. I guess one person's "nonsense" is another's "common sense".
Yes, I do think the edifice of rape culture, which is global, needs restructuring, but I think the moral thing to do is clean up the mess in our own back yards before we start complaining about the neighbours.
Well the vast majority of the 1.6 billion behave much more morally than the ideology they profess to follow would teach them.
It seems that on some fronts you do acknowledge some degree of moral expertise?