All laws abolished, by Jesus, or otherwise

[pearl]

You have heard it said - that Christ Himself said - DAMN those PHARISEES - and this is agreed by all...So - PHARISEES are specifically the HEBREW PRIESTHOOD - those who teach about the old ways and abide by them to the letter as THAT god demands....Look - DAMN THEM Christ said - pretty scathing yes..??..

Actually, the Pharisees were not priests, they were the scribes and teachers. Jesus' argument against them was their hypocrisy, not the teaching. " "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses."


"Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice."

 

[Desert Snake]

Actually, the Pharisees were not priests, they were the scribes and teachers. Jesus' argument against them was their hypocrisy, not the teaching. " "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses."


"Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice."

Yes, and this is also generally moot, as we don't have their ''teaching'', despite claims to the contrary. Rabbinic Judaism didn't even exist , there was no Talmud, Jesus was a Nazarene, /followers were a mix, so forth.

We also know that that advice was extremely general, or even metaphoric, as Jesus also told some of the Pharisees, that they worshipped a different deity, etc

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

pcarl; Hmm - the problem was indeed the law of MOSES and of THAT god Yhvh - for that one is not Our Father...The Pharisees were the ones who cleaved to that old tradition the most fervently - the ones who therefore led the people off track with the most pursuasion - these are the ones that had the most influence and control even in His day and therefore these ones who received my mates ire and scorn - for He said very clearly that both the WHOLE religion and the "god" it served was false, to be shunned and avoided COMPLETELY....Read Thomas, the original truth as HE revealed it directly, and this becomes obvious - look :

"If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the Father's kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Father's kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Look - these so called "leaders" - He tells us clearly they KNOW NOTHING OF HIS TRUTH !! He also tells you that they even have you looking in the wrong place entirely -the Kingdom we seek is not to be found formthe word of men, but is revealed from an INNER search for truth...KNOW YOUR SELF - and look - no other man can achieve THAT for you, can they - the leaders know nothing He says so come away from their influence !!

"I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."

He is AGAINST the religious authority - intentionally so - He knows there will be opposition to His NEW TRUTH and this is because as said, THEIR god yhvh is NOT OUR FATHER !!

"This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.
The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. During the days when you ate what is dead, you made it come alive. When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

Their current ideas and teaching - current "truth" - He says is COMPLETELY IN ERROR !! The "heaven" and even the one above - the realms of Yhvh - WILL PASS AWAY He says... The dead are not alive and the living do not die - what they have as current spiritual truth, is actually COMPLETELY WRONG He says !! When you are in the LIGHT he says what will you do..?....They dont KNOW what to do as they do NOT know ANYTHING (yet) about this Light or Divine Father that HE ALONE will now reveal...He speaks of physical life and spiritual life - speaks of being WHOLE then becoming DIVIDED -and says this brings the confusion !! WHAT WILL YOU DO -do you know..??...He asks.....This NEW TRUTH He is revealing, is something foreign, unknown, never before encountered and He is telling them, that their so called "leaders" do not have any clue or idea at all, about what HE ALONE is now revealing...

"Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

Again we see He is doing this ON PURPOSE with full understanding and intent on His part..He came - basically - to DESTROY that religion, not to continue it...lol...

"I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."

Just to be clear here - HIS teaching - NEW - NEVER BEFORE ENCOUNTERED !!! Never even "arisen in the human heart" - they had NO IDEA AT ALL what He was revealing NEW as NOBODY had ever encountered it before !! Elsewhere in Judas, He will repeat that statement again with further cleairt, and speak of the Father directly His realm and our true origin and beginning...Again in that Judas gospel also we will see Him totally disavow the Hebrew god, and tell us that actually it is NOT a god at all - only an Angel that has deceived us all - hence He comes now to set it straight - knows there will be division, war, knows he will destroy the Jewish faith and turn even brother against brother parent against child, but still He goes ahead and delivers this truth anyway, fully knowing what it will do....He is AGAINST that god and its religion and at every opportunity will tell people to come out from under its influence...!!

"The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.
As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."

These so called "leaders" whom you trust - He says they have lied and deceived you ON PURPOSE...They have TAKEN the truth and HIDDEN it from you...They will not allow you to have legitimate Divine truth - hence He is adversary to them always - delivers His Divine truth regardless of them, and as said, at every opportunity, undermines their authority, leads people AWAY from the temple influence, away from the temple authority, and teaches the NEW TRUTH of Our Father that HE ALONE reveals - our Father is NOT the hebrew god yhvh !!

"A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father. Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will perish."

The religion is APART from the Father - SEPERATE from the Father - it must be pulled up by the root to perish !! He IS adversary to the established religion - their god is NOT Our Father - this is why they MURDER Him Folks - for all these things He says and does AGAINST that god and its established authority !! Work it out....lol......

"A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows.

And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other.

Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil.

An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."

Obvious - He is speaking of TWO SEPERATE TRUTHS - that are entirely INCOMPATABLE !! Old truth of Yhvh and religion - or NEW TRUTH never before revealed that He alone now delivers !! He says very clearly that thes etwo truths do not go together at all - you can NOT serve both these "masters" - so choose - old religious truth or NEW legitimate Divine truth - again we see that Hebrew god is NOT OUR FATHER !!!

"Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you."

He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is always in your presence, and have spoken of the dead."

Old dead HEBREW prophets have spoken - and Christ says SO WHAT - basiclly..!! He says they cling to the dead truth that is NOT HIS and do not know even how to approach the NEW truth that He delivers...The LIVING truth escapes them as yet - the living truth of the one who is ALWAYS in your Presence - and that He alone is reveling - the LEGITIMATE Divine truth of Our Father...He says clearly again - old dead Hebrew prophets do NOT give you this Divine truth !! It is NOT learned then, from "religion" - but is revealed DIRECTLY - becomes LIVING TRUTH and that Presence is ALWAYS available and immediate !! Their god and their religion - is NOT of Our Father !!!

"Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

Again we see clearly HIS TRUTH - is NOT THEIR truth - not at all....You MUST come to HATE your parents, and family traditions - you must turn your back entirely on that whole Jewish tradition He says - come to HATE your parents ways and teachings, for they are led astray and in turn have led you astray also.....THEIR god is NOT Our Father so come out from its influence ENTIRELY He says - HATE it - shun and avoid it and have no part of its deceipt !!

"Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."

More strong language and condemnation from Him - directed ALWAYS at the religion itself and its teachers and its god !! DAMN THEM - they do not allow you to have TRUTH He says !!

They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."

He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

Look - very VERY CLEAR - give emporer what is his - give the "god" of the religion what is his also - then give CHRIST what is His also !!!

Look - HE HIMSELF distinguishes Himself as entirely SEPERATE from BOTH mortal world and its concerns .AND the religious god and its concerns.... He is NOT MORTAL and He is NOT from the Hebrew "god" - ENTIRELY SEPERATE - NO AFFILIATION at all !!! he just said so very clearly didnt He..??...yes indeed....

Add it ALL up - there is still more to show it clearly but surely this is enough - see undeniably that as I say - their so called god is NOT the true legitimate Divine spirit that CHRIST ALONE will reveal......It is an ANGEL He said, deceiving you all and claiming a power and status above you that is has no rights to claim at all...hence He IS against that god and it religion right from the start..He gave them one opportunity to embrace His truth and they rejected it out of hand - hence we see now all this damning hate filled rhetoric aimed squarely at the religion, its teachers and its god and ONLY ever at that institution...That "god" is NOT OUR FATHER - and never forget - they MURDERED Him to silence this truth He bought -they are ENEMIES Folks - let it sink in...They ARE enemies and this is because their god is NOT Our Father - for those with ears to hear.....

 

[pearl]

In the intertestamental period two political parties emerged, the Pharisees and the Sadducees. The Pharisees agrued that there was also an oral Torah, a set of traditions that had been handed down to them by the former scribes, (who received from there predecessors back to Moses)

Jesus would have identitied with the Pharisees as he admonished people to observe what they teach as they hold the seat of Moses. What He spoke against was their hipocracy.

 

[12jtartar]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

Deeje,
The entire Mosaic Law Covenant ended on the night before the death of Jesus. The New Covenant, that Jesus instituted at the Last Supper, or Lord's Evening Meal, superseded the Mosaic Law Covenant, Luke 22:14-20 1Corinthians 11:23-26.
The New Covenant was much greater because it was based on Jesus' blood, while the Mosaic Covenant was based on the Blood of goats and bulls, Hebrews 9:11-14.
The Mosaic Covenant was not to be forever, just as God inspired Jeremiah to write, Jeremiah 31:31-34.
The Mosaic Law was a shadow of Jesus who was to come, Hebrews 10:1. The Mosaic Covenant made no one perfect in God's eyes, so a greater Covenant was needed for man's salvation, Hebrews 8:6-13.
The Mosaic Law Covenant condemned all under it to death, because no one could obey it perfectly, all were under a curse, Galatians 3:10-14, James 2:10.
Under the New Covenant God looked at faithful followers of Jesus as perfect, no does not charge their sins against them, because Jesus has already paid the price for their sins by his Ransom, sacrificial death, Hebrews 10:11-18.
The New Covenant based on Jesus' blood, caused a forgiveness of sins that could not be forgiven under the Mosaic Covenant, Acts 13:37-41. Agape!!!

 

[Desert Snake]

The Levitical Laws were part of the first covenant with the Children of Israel. It was essentially a mirror to show man how sinful we are. Jeremiah 31:31-34 foretold promise of a new covenant, different from, and much improved, from the covenant made at Mount Sinai. The second covenant was Jesus Christ which is more like a window into the love of God.

When Christ was crucified it was during Passover and the Priests were sacrificing thousands of doves and lambs as atonement for failing of the Israelites to uphold the Mosaic/Levitical Laws. The blood of these sacrifices flowed into the Brook of Kidron. After Christ was scourged and was moving toward Calvary his blood (the lamb of God...the perfect sacrifice) flowed into the Brook of Kidron. That was the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new.

The early Church struggled with the idea of the Mosaic/Levitical Laws. There was a subset within the early Church that believed that one had to be Jewish and uphold the Mosaic/Levitical Laws to be a Christian. Peter addressed this with a great deal of eloquence...why would you place a heavy yoke upon the believer that neither we nor our fathers were ever able to bear.

It isn't a "heavy yoke", to use our sense of practicality, and knowledge of further scripture, in order to determine which laws we either want to, or should, follow. Some laws, like circumcision, were literally abolished. Other laws can be useful, or even are supposed to be followed. Merely a modification of laws, does not mean, all the laws are abolished. At that point, why are you even reading the Scripture, in the first place.

Abolishment of all laws is a pernicious idea espoused by fake church academics, who were trying to separate the real religion of Jesus, from it's actual roots, /Israelitish.

 

[Desert Snake]

In the intertestamental period two political parties emerged, the Pharisees and the Sadducees. The Pharisees agrued that there was also an oral Torah, a set of traditions that had been handed down to them by the former scribes, (who received from there predecessors back to Moses)

Jesus would have identitied with the Pharisees as he admonished people to observe what they teach as they hold the seat of Moses. What He spoke against was their hipocracy.

The religion of Jesus is Judaic, not Judaism. Hence your comment is generally innaplicable, or vague at best, to the thread premise.

 

[pearl]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.

The religion of Jesus is Judaic, not Judaism. Hence your comment is generally innaplicable, or vague at best, to the thread premise.

What is the difference, according to you, between Judaic and Judaism where Jesus is concerned? According to Gospel evidence Jesus was an observant Jew. What may have been modified or nullified by the church and the sacred writers following the D/R is another thing. It is a mistake to think that we may jump from the OT to the NT and ignore the historical context of the intertestamental period (400-4BC).

 

[Raj V]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

They were completely modified not to intent but to implementation. The laws of old testament concerned acts. External. What Jesus was took it to the root. Internal. Mind and Heart. Jeremiah 31, 31 thru 34 prophecies this. Taking it internal completely simplifies it and makes it perfect.

Jeremiah 31

A New Covenant
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day thatI took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

[Sully]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

 

[Sully]

Jesus introduced the New Covenant that was outlined in Jeremiah 31:31-34. I believe the Old Covenant was like a mirror...to demonstrate (through Mosaic Laws) how we can't meet God's standards of righteousness. The New Covenant is like a window...to show us how only by God's grace can achieve salvation.

 

[Raj V]

They were completely modified not to intent but to implementation. The laws of old testament concerned acts. External. What Jesus was took it to the root. Internal. Mind and Heart. Jeremiah 31, 31 thru 34 prophecies this. Taking it internal completely simplifies it and makes it perfect.

Jeremiah 31

A New Covenant
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day thatI took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Jesus introduced the New Covenant that was outlined in Jeremiah 31:31-34. I believe the Old Covenant was like a mirror...to demonstrate (through Mosaic Laws) how we can't meet God's standards of righteousness. The New Covenant is like a window...to show us how only by God's grace can achieve salvation.

I am not sure why the self labelled Christians cannot get basic facts right. The only way to salvation is repentance. The Gap can be covered by Grace. But those who do not do their best to repent or children of devil, not God. They twist clear commandment to justify their sloth.

Jesus clearly commands repentance and asks that we be perfect as the Father in heaven is. Please stop tarnishing Christ and Christianity with foreign principles.

Christ is the foundation for Christianity. Not the whole Bible and not Paul and Peter.

 

[Raj V]

I am not sure why the self labelled Christians cannot get basic facts right. The only way to salvation is repentance. The Gap can be covered by Grace. But those who do not do their best to repent or children of devil, not God. They twist clear commandment to justify their sloth.

Jesus clearly commands repentance and asks that we be perfect as the Father in heaven is. Please stop tarnishing Christ and Christianity with foreign principles.

Christ is the foundation for Christianity. Not the whole Bible and not Paul and Peter.

Jesus introduced the New Covenant that was outlined in Jeremiah 31:31-34. I believe the Old Covenant was like a mirror...to demonstrate (through Mosaic Laws) how we can't meet God's standards of righteousness. The New Covenant is like a window...to show us how only by God's grace can achieve salvation.

The old covenant is far easier to meet (Though people did not). For the old governs actions while the new goes to the very roots. Minds and hearts.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The only thing that changed is how the law is presented to us. A more flexible enforcement.

Hebrews 7:12 "For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also."

Matt 5:18 "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Romans 7:6For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Can you explain as to which law is being spoken about in Matthew 5:18 and Romans 7:6?

 

[Kemosloby]

Can you explain as to which law is being spoken about in Matthew 5:18 and Romans 7:6?

Jesus said the sum of the law is "Love your neighbor as yourself", so that law is being spoken about. Being open to interpretation people must serve the law by spirit rather than a written code.

 

[Raj V]

Can you explain as to which law is being spoken about in Matthew 5:18 and Romans 7:6?

The only law that makes sense is the universal laws/principles of Love, Righteousness, Wisdom, Humility .... It would also be consistent with several other important verses.

 

[Hawkins]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

No. They cannot be modified as the set of Mosaic will have to be used to judge the Jews on the judgment day.

Covenants have the added-upon effects and none of them needs to be abolished. Though 'abolish' can be used to describe how a new standard is used for one's judgment. Every human today is born with an old covenant, gentiles and Jews alike. He will be judged by this old covenant as a default. The New Covenant however is not a covenant born with, it is a covenant chosen with consent. Once it's chosen, the standard of judgment is based on the new covenant instead of the old. Nothing else is basically changed. You need to obey the same Law before and after. Both believers and unbelievers need to observe the same set of Law specified by their default covenant. Nothing changes. The only difference is that the standard of judgment has been changed.

The Jews still need to abide by Mosaic Law as long as they still call themselves the Jews. Though Christian Jews have the option not to observe the Mosaic Law, which makes them the gentile Christians instead of Jewish Christians. The Jews still with Judaism observe the same old Mosaic Law. God however allows their Tabernacle to be destroyed in AD 70 such that the can no longer provide sin and guilt and atonement offerings legitimately as before. It signifies that God no longer accepts their offerings for sin atonement. Jesus Christ remains the only way. From this perspective, you may also say that their ritual process is 'nullified'. However from a legal and lawful perspective, nothing has been changed (i.e.,the laws are still there specifying them to provide offerings legitimately inside the tabernacle).

Similarly, all gentiles (Christians or not) need to follow their conscience to act, as specified in the default covenant applicable to gentiles. Non-Christians will be judged by this same old covenant while Christians will be judged by the standard specified in the New Covenant. Nothing else changes, except for the standard of judgment.

 

[Raj V]

No. They cannot be modified as the set of Mosaic will have to be used to judge the Jews on the judgment day.

Covenants have the added-upon effects and none of them needs to be abolished. Though 'abolish' can be used to describe how a new standard is used for one's judgment. Every human today is born with an old covenant, gentiles and Jews alike. He will be judged by this old covenant as a default. The New Covenant however is not a covenant born with, it is a covenant chosen with consent. Once it's chosen, the standard of judgment is based on the new covenant instead of the old. Nothing else is basically changed. You need to obey the same Law before and after. Both believers and unbelievers need to observe the same set of Law specified by their default covenant. Nothing changes. The only difference is that the standard of judgment has been changed.

The Jews still need to abide by Mosaic Law as long as they still call themselves the Jews. Though Christian Jews have the option not to observe the Mosaic Law, which makes them the gentile Christians instead of Jewish Christians. The Jews still with Judaism observe the same old Mosaic Law. God however allows their Tabernacle to be destroyed in AD 70 such that the can no longer provide sin and guilt and atonement offerings legitimately as before. It signifies that God no longer accepts their offerings for sin atonement. Jesus Christ remains the only way. From this perspective, you may also say that their ritual process is 'nullified'. However from a legal and lawful perspective, nothing has been changed (i.e.,the laws are still there specifying them to provide offerings legitimately inside the tabernacle).

Similarly, all gentiles (Christians or not) need to follow their conscience to act, as specified in the default covenant applicable to gentiles. Non-Christians will be judged by this same old covenant while Christians will be judged by the standard specified in the New Covenant. Nothing else changes, except for the standard of judgment.

There only was one divine law ever. It never was Mosaic law. We have been asked not to judge and now we take upon the task to determine how God has to judge? The only thing we need to do is Repent. Stop all the foolish theologies and doctrines. One needs to look upon the son of the man on the cross and understand what is expected of us, our shortfalls and Repent.

 

[Desert Snake]

No. They cannot be modified as the set of Mosaic will have to be used to judge the Jews on the judgment day.

Clearly not
1 Corinthians 12:13
No distinction is made between Jews and I presume you mean christians. //Scripturally, 'gentiles' aren't Jesus adherents.

Similarly, all gentiles (Christians or not) need to follow their conscience to act, as specified in the default covenant applicable to gentiles. Non-Christians will be judged by this same old covenant while Christians will be judged by the standard specified in the New Covenant. Nothing else changes, except for the standard of judgment.

I disagree with those religious ideas.
The churches sometimes tried to make it easier to be a christian, in my opinion, by getting rid of all 'rules' that might prevent conversion; also, church authority for sin remission, and biblical interpretation, affected the actual beliefs concerning which rules christians should be keeping.

 

[Faithofchristian]

There were only certain laws that were fulfilled by Jesus thereby bringing them to an end or to say abolished. That they are no longer binding or to be kept.

Like the law of Sacrifices, they were fulfilled that are no longer binding or are to be kept.They were abolished.fulfilled.