"All life matters." : combatting Truths with truths

[Revoltingest]

Are we talking about SJW's? Remember the ice bucket challenges, that got boo'd because people are dying from literally hundreds of other diseases, too? To deny or dismiss someone's experience based on the color of their skin is to fail to hear them speak. It's lovely to say we don't judge another's value based on the color of their skin, but that presupposes that there's never been a time when the value of a human life was judged based on that very thing.

I don't understand this.

 

[Marisa]

I don't understand this.

When you say that "all lives matter", while true, it dismisses the experience of people who haven't lived that reality. White folk have never been owned. Nobody sees a group of young white males in hoodies and gets scared. No employer sees the name "John Smith" on an application and forms any other stereotypical opinions about the applicant. Etc. etc. etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

When you say that "all lives matter", while true, it dismisses the experience of people who haven't lived that reality. White folk have never been owned. Nobody sees a group of young white males in hoodies and gets scared. No employer sees the name "John Smith" on an application and forms any other stereotypical opinions about the applicant. Etc. etc. etc.

White folk have historically been owned too.
But this isn't really relevant.
No living black folk have been slaves here, so that's not a very compelling complaint.
What they have is the valid claim of being statistically more likely to be abused/killed by cops.
But this becomes the tail wagging the dog.
Does the reality of cops murdering & assaulting people only matter when the victims are black?
One can ferret out news stories of non-black folk being killed by cops, even recorded on video.
These are more numerous, but are avoided by the media & SJWs.

I notice an interesting phenomenon.....
When you see news that the cops kill someone, look to see what the race of the victim is.
Typically, race is disclosed when he/she is black, but not when white.
I also notice (eg, Freddie Gray) that when the assaulting cops are also black, this isn't given attention.

Are the media fanning the flames of racism because it sells more advertising?
Or are they reluctant to face the larger problem of their beloved big government run amok?
They generally pursue security by giving government more power over us.
But the militarization of police is an uncomfortable price to pay....so perhaps they'd rather avoid addressing it.

 

[Marisa]

White folk have historically been owned too.
But this isn't really relevant.
No living black folk have been slaves here, so that's not a very compelling complaint.
What they have is the valid claim of being statistically more likely to be abused/killed by cops.
But this becomes the tail wagging the dog.
Does the reality of cops murdering & assaulting people only matter when the victims are black?
One can ferret out news stories of non-black folk being killed by cops, even recorded on video.
These are more numerous, but are avoided by the media & SJWs.

I notice an interesting phenomenon.....
When you see news that the cops kill someone, look to see what the race of the victim is.
Typically, race is disclosed when he/she is black, but not when white.
I also notice (eg, Freddie Gray) that when the assaulting cops are also black, this isn't given attention.

Are the media fanning the flames of racism because it sells more advertising?
Or are they reluctant to face the larger problem of their beloved big government run amok?
They generally pursue security by giving government more power over us.
But the militarization of police is an uncomfortable price to pay....so perhaps they'd rather avoid addressing it.

First of all, let's do try to keep this conversation relevant. We're not talking about the history of the human species, and we don't need to move the goal posts there. We're talking about the history of the US. Okie doke?

Quite right, no living black folk have been owned just like no living white folk have owned black folk. So why is racism still a huge problem in this country? Why does a white cop get to refer to a black man as a "beast" and expect that no repercussions from that will visit him? Black people in America live a very different experience than us white folk do, and much of stems from that time when our ancestors owned theirs. To DENY that, is to deny them and for for little reason because it costs you NOTHING.

 

[jeager106]

"We" (white people) back in 1863 (Emancipation) freed the slaves
by Proclamation ( Lincoln ).
Slaves were really freed by the end of the Civil War and the
capitulation of the Rebel (Pro-Salve) States.
But were slaves really free? Hardly.
And what did we turn loose on society in general by "freeing"
the slaves?
An uneducated, illiterate, group of millions of people that had
been treated as property, as one would own a pig or cow.
So what did the Country expect would happen to such a group
of illiterates, with feelings of no self worth, many realizing how
"mad as hell" they were at "whitie" for generations of horrible abuse.
"We" (whites in 1865) turned the slaves loose with NOTHING.
No education, almost no skills save for saying "yes massa"
and working 18 hours a day for nothing.
So what do we expect out of a group of people so treated
without educations, without skills, and unwanted by anyone?
And we actually wonder why we have such a problem with black
on black crime, black crime in general, welfare, feelings
of entitlement and all the other social problems "we" created
by not helping train and educated the newly freed black person
and helping them to realize that "we" just fought a war
that cost over 600,000 American lives to end slavery! (both sides)
We didn't teach them a damned thing worthwhile.

 

[Revoltingest]

First of all, let's do try to keep this conversation relevant. We're not talking about the history of the human species, and we don't need to move the goal posts there. We're talking about the history of the US. Okie doke?

Good idea!
But let's also keep it about current conditions.

Quite right, no living black folk have been owned just like no living white folk have owned black folk. So why is racism still a huge problem in this country? Why does a white cop get to refer to a black man as a "beast" and expect that no repercussions from that will visit him? Black people in America live a very different experience than us white folk do, and much of stems from that time when our ancestors owned theirs. To DENY that, is to deny them and for for little reason because it costs you NOTHING.

I see no one denying them their complaints about racism.
To raise the issue of larger & broader problems being ignored does not deny them this.
To see a Democratic presidential candidate apologized for saying "All lives matter" because black folk boo him is a dismal state of affairs.

 

[Marisa]

Good idea!
But let's also keep it about current conditions.

Can you adequately assess current conditions in the absence of history? Can you explain why racism exists without mentioning slavery? I don't think so. It's pertinent. That a black book with an embossed letter "t" on the front mentions slavery isn't. But the history of blacks in America most definitely is pertinent.

To raise the issue of larger & broader problems being ignored does not deny them this.

Yes, it kind of does. It says to them "your experience is irrelevant, we've bigger fish to fry".

To see a Democratic presidential candidate apologized for saying "All lives matter" because black folk boo him is a dismal state of affairs.

Saying "all lives matter", while true, is just another way of telling non-white people that their personal experiences in a society which prefers white skin is irrelevant. Their deaths cannot possibly be of note in light of the white folk who are dying!

Again, it costs you nothing, no skin off your back, to simply acknowledge that non-white people live a very different experience in America than you do. It doesn't make you a racist, it doesn't even make you a bigot. It simply makes you aware.

 

[Revoltingest]

Can you adequately assess current conditions in the absence of history? Can you explain why racism exists without mentioning slavery? I don't think so. It's pertinent. That a black book with an embossed letter "t" on the front mentions slavery isn't. But the history of blacks in America most definitely is pertinent.

Yes, we can ignore the fact that some people have ancestors who were slaves.
At some point, the discussion must be about current affairs, & not endless lamenting of something which ended 150 years ago.
Today's problems are what they are.

Yes, it kind of does. It says to them "your experience is irrelevant, we've bigger fish to fry".

That would be a rather self serving inference....one which let's them maintain that mantle of victimhood.
It says "Only our problems matter. Don't bring up anything more important, lest we feel disrespected."?

Saying "all lives matter", while true, is just another way of telling non-white people that their personal experiences in a society which prefers white skin is irrelevant. Their deaths cannot possibly be of note in light of the white folk who are dying!

This is another self-serving inference.
Odd thing.....
Black lives matter more than many others in the media, but only if they're lost to cops or someone white (or the newly discovered "white Hispanic).
But black lives lost to other black folk matter not one whit. Black on black crime is insignificant in the media, even though far more lives are lost this way.

Again, it costs you nothing, no skin off your back, to simply acknowledge that non-white people live a very different experience in America than you do. It doesn't make you a racist, it doesn't even make you a bigot. It simply makes you aware.

There experience is different....this is so obvious as to hardly be worth noting.
My different experience gives me a perspective which is of no less value.
This should also be unworthy of noting.

 

[Marisa]

Yes, we can ignore the fact that some people have ancestors who were slaves.
At some point, the discussion must be about current affairs, & not endless lamenting of something which ended 150 years ago.
Today's problems are what they are.

Slavery ended. Racism did not. You can dismiss that, but all you're accomplishing is the continued marginalization of folks who are already marginalized. Even if your goal is to solve those "bigger" issues, you aren't going to until you address the roots of the problem, and follow those to wherever they lead. Doesn't decades of the status quo and where we are now suggest that?

That would be a rather self serving inference....one which let's them maintain that mantle of victimhood.
It says "Only our problems matter. Don't bring up anything more important, lest we feel disrespected."?

I'd wager a guess that many non-whites don't see themselves as victims, that's our word. They see themselves as marginalized in almost every conceivable way by a society that wants them to shut the hell up already.

This is another self-serving inference.
Odd thing.....
Black lives matter more than many others in the media, but only if they're lost to cops or someone white (or the newly discovered "white Hispanic).
But black lives lost to other black folk matter not one whit. Black on black crime is insignificant in the media, even though far more lives are lost this way.

One wonders: does an overly militarized police force and the fact that racism is indeed alive and well create a particular reality?

There experience is different....this is so obvious as to hardly be worth noting.

Their experience is so different that we have to be legislated into letting them pretend to be viewed equally, and this is hardly worth noting?

My different experience gives me a perspective which is of no less value.
This should also be unworthy of noting.

And we're back to square one.

 

[Revoltingest]

Slavery ended. Racism did not. You can dismiss......

You're not being accurate....
I dismiss the relevance of slavery.
After all it ended 150 years ago.
You keep bringing it up, but don't make a case for its relevance.
As for racism's existence, I have not dismissed it at all.
If you really want to pursue this claim, let's see a cogent argument with evidence.

.....but all you're accomplishing is the continued marginalization of folks who are already marginalized.

This is your opinion, but I believe that I'm helping more by getting past the myopic focus upon white racism towards blacks.
If anything, your approach marginalizes them more by ignoring the fundamental problems of government.

Even if your goal is to solve those "bigger" issues.....

"Even if"?
You needn't make my stated position hypothetical.....it really is my position.

.....you aren't going to until you address the roots of the problem, and follow those to wherever they lead.

I am addressing the roots of the problem.
The problem is that the "black lives matter" mentality does not.

I'd wager a guess that many non-whites don't see themselves as victims, that's our word. They see themselves as marginalized in almost every conceivable way but a society that wants them to shut the hell up already.

It seems that everyone has someone who wants them to shut up.
This is what the OP is about, eh? Wanting the likes of me to shut up.
Well, being noisy & out of the norm is my job here.

Their experience is so different that we have to legislated into letting them pretend to be view equally, and this is hardly worth noting?

I don't understand this.

And we're back to square one.

Nothing is ever settled in a discussion forum.

 

[Marisa]

You're not being accurate....
I dismiss the relevance of slavery.
After all it ended 150 years ago.
You keep bringing it up, but don't make a case for its relevance.
As for racism's existence, I have not dismissed it at all.
If you really want to pursue this claim, let's see a cogent argument with evidence.

No, you simply disagree with the case I made. That's not accurate.

This is your opinion, but I believe that I'm helping more by getting past the myopic focus upon white racism towards blacks.
If anything, your approach marginalizes them more by ignoring the fundamental problems of government.

How exactly do you cure racism without focusing on it?

"Even if"?
You needn't make my stated position hypothetical.....it really is my position.

That wasn't my inference, and I'm positive you understand that.

I am addressing the roots of the problem.
The problem is that the "black lives matter" mentality does not.

It matters as much as "all lives matter".

It seems that everyone has someone who wants them to shut up.
This is what the OP is about, eh? Wanting the likes of me to shut up.
Well, being noisy & out of the norm is my job here.

Here's what I know about my own experience from privilege: Those benefitting from it are often the very last to notice that benefit. It's just the norm. The way things are.

But those not benefitting from it can point to exactly where the benefit lies.

I don't understand this.

Affirmative Action.

Nothing is ever settled in a discussion forum.

And there it is, we always come, in the end, to a point on which we agree.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And we're back to square one.

Hence the problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

How exactly do you cure racism without focusing on it?

I say it should not be the sole, or even primary focus.

That wasn't my inference, and I'm positive you understand that.

It wasn't clear, but now it is.
(I often run across posters who will claim I don't believe what I say. So I address it when it seems suggested.)

It matters as much as "all lives matter".

I don't think so.
To make the problem solely about black lives & racism distracts from general governmental thuggery.
But people will disagree about such things.
Remember that I'm opining.....I don't have kthe truth.

How to face problems:
It does no good to identify victims, & set them against those called "privileged".
Instead, identify wrongful practices perpetrated against victims, & go after the individuals or system responsible.
SJWs can lecture me about my "privilege" until they're blue in the face, but this effects no change.

Here's what I know about my own experience from privilege: Those benefitting from it are often the very last to notice that benefit. It's just the norm. The way things are.

And what I see is that people who see themselves as perpetual victims whose victimhood trumps all others will have great privilege that they're entirely unaware of.

But those not benefitting from it can point to exactly where the benefit lies.

....and fail to see their own benefit.

Affirmative Action.

A kind of privilege for a lucky few, eh?

And there it is, we always come, in the end, to a point on which we agree.

I'll find a way to wring some rancor from it.....
Dunderhead! Cisgendered poopy head!
I feel better now.

 

[Marisa]

I say it should not be the sole, or even primary focus.

I didn't say that it should be. What I said was that you can't ignore it.

It wasn't clear, but now it is.
(I often run across posters who will claim I don't believe what I say. So I address it when it seems suggested.)

I understand. One of the reasons I enjoy talking to you is that you don't assume you know what I mean despite what I actually said.

I don't think so.
To make the problem solely about black lives & racism distracts from general governmental thuggery.
But people will disagree about such things.
Remember that I'm opining.....I don't have kthe truth.

I understand that you're just opining, too. But most people just want to be understood. And it seems to me that telling them that they can't relate their experience because everyone has one is rather dismissive.

And what I see is that people who see themselves as perpetual victims whose victimhood trumps all others will have great privilege that they're entirely unaware of.

Any institution created by man can be abused by man, this is true. This does not mean that to strive for excellence and even perfection is a bad thing.

....and fail to see their own benefit.

I disagree with what you're really saying. It's not creating privilege when we legislate equality. It's evening the playing field.

A kind of privilege for a lucky few, eh?

See above.

I'll find a way to wring some rancor from it.....
Dunderhead! Cisgendered poopy head!
I feel better now.

I'm glad you feel better. As for myself, I'm entirely unmoved by your negative exclamations flung like feces in my general direction.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand that you're just opining, too. But most people just want to be understood. And it seems to me that telling them that they can't relate their experience because everyone has one is rather dismissive.

When people advocate for a position, they typically maker their case, & don't validate the case made by the other side.
This doesn't mean the former is unaware of the latter.
But dang, people are quick to infer complete dismissal of their own perspective.

What struck me about the "black lives matter" was O'Malley's audience's booing, & his subsequent apology.
This presidential candidate dismissed his own perspective.
Does this relate to his own agenda?
He's a mixed bag on policing, governmental authority, & crime.
I wonder how he'd address militarization of cops, & enforcing accountability for their wrongful acts?
As Baltimore's mayor....
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/04/us/ap-us-dem-2016-omalley.html?_r=0
Perhaps he was entirely the wrong person to speak about all lives mattering.
This whole episode becomes more interesting the more I look into it.

I'm glad you feel better. As for myself, I'm entirely unmoved by your negative exclamations flung like feces in my general direction.

I'll try harder next time.

Now for a well researched, objective & interesting piece on militarization of police.....
http://www.theonion.com/graphic/the-pros-and-cons-of-militarizing-the-police-36717

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I agree. All life matters. and that include African-Americans. The negative response is because European-Americans want to ignore what happens to African-Americans. Just like they want to ignore other things. In effect, what they REALLY want is African-Americans to be silent and just accept there role as semi-slaves.

To me it's another example of the majority in power becoming fearful of losing that majority and having to suffer a loss of power. It's the same line of Christians being discriminated against because gays can marry, and the rich being discriminated against because of welfare and not having special tax cuts.

I imagine it's hard to see the culture in which you've had majority acceptance suddenly shift and have to accept that other people also have the same rights.

 

[Marisa]

When people advocate for a position, they typically maker their case, & don't validate the case made by the other side.
This doesn't mean the former is unaware of the latter.
But dang, people are quick to infer complete dismissal of their own perspective.

What struck me about the "black lives matter" was O'Malley's audience's booing, & his subsequent apology.
This presidential candidate dismissed his own perspective.
Does this relate to his own agenda?
He's a mixed bag on policing, governmental authority, & crime.
I wonder how he'd address militarization of cops, & enforcing accountability for their wrongful acts?
As Baltimore's mayor....
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/04/us/ap-us-dem-2016-omalley.html?_r=0
Perhaps he was entirely the wrong person to speak about all lives mattering.
This whole episode becomes more interesting the more I look into it.


I'll try harder next time.

Now for a well researched, objective & interesting piece on militarization of police.....
http://www.theonion.com/graphic/the-pros-and-cons-of-militarizing-the-police-36717

Addressing the militarization of police more than likely will have residual affects on the interaction between police and people of color. But you'll never make any headway on racism without addressing racism directly.

A friend once told me that if 6 people are telling me my car is red and I still think it's blue, perhaps it's me that needs to take another look. So if an entire community is telling me they feel dismissed by a hashtag, I'm going to listen. It says something itself, that here you and I sit, two white folk waxing poetic on the value of these phrases to society.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

How exactly do you cure racism without focusing on it?

There are some interesting thoughts on this.

You have to talk about it some. But the way it is talked about needs to change. It must be realized but then it must be corrected without dwelling on it. If I were to take a black child and tell him/her every day that she is being discriminated against, even if they are not in most cases, they will believe they are. We need to be inclusive rather than exclusive. "Black lives matter. All lives matter." That should be the slogan. The specific issue of police brutality and murder is a huge issue that spans racial boundaries. The racism of cops and our judicial system is a huge problem. Thankfully over the past few decades it has gotten significantly better. This trend needs to continue and speed up to the point where we have equality or at least reasonable comparative equality. Another highly important thing is actually a point that was brought up by the anti-christ himself Bill O'Riley. Many African Americans live in poverty and lower class neighborhoods. They will be more likely to be involved in crime and more likely to be involved with the police and possible dangerous situations where the police may harm them. Its possible that the bulk of this isn't a direct result from "racist cops" but from a mixture of racist cops and the reality of the economic inequality of the racial dynamic in America. Finding out where the problem originates from and finding the best possible solutions to them is far better than knee jerk reactions and instant blame. Best instant fix for cops that have done questionable things is to have it required that all cops have a body cam and dash cam that is capable of capturing the audio and visual of their entire time on duty. If cops fail to comply then they should be punished through suspensions and those that are caught in the act need to be sacked on the spot for hate crimes. They need to make sure that there are cameras in the police stations as well. The ones with the most power need to be the ones who are held at the highest standards. That can be overhauled and fixed in less than a month. It doesn't specifically address racism but cop behavior overall. This is an "all lives matter" approach.

To better the economic disparity would be better infrastructure in America. More funding for schools, especially inner city schools and schools that are far behind educationally. Free lunch and breakfast should always be an option. Single payer healthcare systems will remove the stigma of medicaid and give equal treatment to all regardless of race, income or public standing. Cities need to focus on better public transportation. This will remove the stigma of public transportation that exists everywhere but NYC. It is also better for our planet and economy as well. More reasonable tuition rates for college. It should not be easy to get a degree and there are backlashes to having "free" college. But it has never been such a huge issue as it is today. Financial problems should not stop someone from getting into college. Raising the minimum wage will bring hordes of families out of poverty. It will help minority families more as proportionally they tend to have higher rates of poverty.

I could go on and on and on. But these are real steps that can be taken that will indirectly but more effectively help the racial inequalities of the current state of the Union. Its done without attacking people or making people victims. It can all be done without addressing race at all. We worked hard to stop segregation. Lets not re-segregate ourselves.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, there is a definite trend of a minority of the majority to whine and cry and say "what about me?" when a minority group stands up for their rights, even though this minority of the majority isn't the group being singled out and trampled on. Of course all lives matter, and I doubt that more than a few people waving "black lives matter" banners think otherwise. But it's not all lives that are overwhelmingly singled out and killed by police.

 

[Revoltingest]

Addressing the militarization of police more than likely will have residual affects on the interaction between police and people of color. But you'll never make any headway on racism without addressing racism directly.

Let's address both!

A friend once told me that if 6 people are telling me my car is red and I still think it's blue, perhaps it's me that needs to take another look. So if an entire community is telling me they feel dismissed by a hashtag, I'm going to listen. It says something itself, that here you and I sit, two white folk waxing poetic on the value of these phrases to society.

That cuts both ways.
If people are telling you that "all lives matter", it would pay to listen.

Btw, white individuals can have a unique insight into problems too.
Black folk don't have the singular TRUTH either.
I've known some who suffered from an obsession with victimhood.
Marla, a former co-worker at Black & Decker, would lament how black folk (such as her) suffered discrimination at the company.
I car pooled with her, but seldom actually gave her a ride because she was late over 90% of the time.
I'd usually see her walk in an hour after I arrived.
I contrast here with Bob, an aikido buddy (also black), who was ambitious....Baltimore City teacher with an expanding stock of rental housing he owned,
He didn't complain....he just chased down success, grabbed it by is throat, ripped its.........dang, this is getting graphic!