All loving or morally reprehensible?

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe the answer to this is because humans were created solely to exist in a relationship of love and trust with their Creator. Real love can only exist when given freely, hence the need for beings created with freewill. The inability to keep the laws apart from God's power (which occurs only in a relationship with Him) and the negative consequences reveal that apart from God we cannot survive...and we were not meant to. This is what I understand, yet I may fall short in explaining and expressing clearly.

In other words, your god is just playing a game. "He" made the rules. "He" created this paradigm and we have no choice but to exist within "his" defined parameters. We can't choose to opt out of the game. We aren't allowed to say "hey, I'm not interested in heaven, hell, sin, salvation or anything like that. I want to try something else". No, no. The choice is always "love me and obey my rules...or else!".

That's not freedom, free will or freedom of choice. It's a construct. A game.

 

[InChrist]

In other words, your god is just playing a game. "He" made the rules. "He" created this paradigm and we have no choice but to exist within "his" defined parameters. We can't choose to opt out of the game. We aren't allowed to say "hey, I'm not interested in heaven, hell, sin, salvation or anything like that. I want to try something else". No, no. The choice is always "love me and obey my rules...or else!".

That's not freedom, free will or freedom of choice. It's a construct. A game.

I don't see it as a game, simply reality. If someone creates something...a painting, a garden of colorful flowers or a farm producing fruits and vegetables, it is what is and it's beauty and productivity is dependent on its creator. It's not a game, although it may bring joy and satisfaction.

In my view God has a very beautiful reality for those who love Him.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't see it as a game, simply reality. If someone creates something...a painting, a garden of colorful flowers or a farm producing fruits and vegetables, it is what is and it's beauty and productivity is dependent on its creator. It's not a game, although it may bring joy and satisfaction,

In my view God has a very beautiful reality for those who love Him.

Oh, but it does add up to being a game. Your god creates all that is in existence, defines the rules that we should abide by, brings us into existence without our permission and without giving us an "opt out" choice or a chance to review the rules before we start playing the game (being conceived/born). It's a construct created by a tyrant and we're the game players who have no real choice in the matter. We either choose to accept "him" and live by whatever rules "he" decides are best for us, or we reject "him" and go to hell. That's not a choice. If I can't say that I'm not interested in heaven or hell or that I'm not interested in dealing with your god at all, but am denied that choice, then I have no freedom!

 

[McBell]

A shepherd will only love his sheep but not the wolves. A father only loves his sons and daughters but not necessarily those who try to harm his children.

The question is rather are you a sheep, or do you call God father. If you call God your father, perhaps He's not your father.

Christians need to spread the message of the gospel such that more will be able to hear to "good news" of a new covenant and to have a choice to be under the protection of such a covenant.

I saw a bumper sticker once:

Spread the Word of God,
Use words only if you have to.​

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

So what's your opinion? Is this Christian god-concept an all loving, perfect

Generally speaking the Christian god-concept defines god as all-loving and perfect and the chore is then to explain how this is possible. So I guess the answer would be that the Christian God is all-loving and perfect by definition.

 

[InChrist]

Oh, but it does add up to being a game. Your god creates all that is in existence, defines the rules that we should abide by, brings us into existence without our permission and without giving us an "opt out" choice or a chance to review the rules before we start playing the game (being conceived/born). It's a construct created by a tyrant and we're the game players who have no real choice in the matter. We either choose to accept "him" and live by whatever rules "he" decides are best for us, or we reject "him" and go to hell. That's not a choice. If I can't say that I'm not interested in heaven or hell or that I'm not interested in dealing with your god at all, but am denied that choice, then I have no freedom!

In the sense that you mention above, I would have to agree with you. God did decide to bring you and I and everyone into existence and has set the rules. Our freedom is in choosing whether to love our Creator and trust His good intentions toward us.

Are you saying that you would have preferred not to have existed at all?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In the sense that you mention above, I would have to agree with you. God did decide to bring you and I and everyone into existence and has set the rules. Our freedom is in choosing whether to love our Creator and trust His good intentions toward us.

Are you saying that you would have preferred not to have existed at all?

I'm just entertaining concepts. I don't accept any of your religion and certainly don't accept your god, or any idea of a "creator".

But if it were true, what you say, then I would prefer not to exist at all. I don't fancy being the pawn in anyone's cosmic game that has such sadistic and narrowly defined, petty rules. Not worth my time.

 

[Jainarayan]

I saw a bumper sticker once:

Spread the Word of God,
Use words only if you have to.​

"Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi (disputed).

 

[InChrist]

I'm just entertaining concepts. I don't accept any of your religion and certainly don't accept your god, or any idea of a "creator".

But if it were true, what you say, then I would prefer not to exist at all. I don't fancy being the pawn in anyone's cosmic game that has such sadistic and narrowly defined, petty rules. Not worth my time.

So there you have it...your freedom.

 

[McBell]

In the sense that you mention above, I would have to agree with you. God did decide to bring you and I and everyone into existence and has set the rules. Our freedom is in choosing whether to love our Creator and trust His good intentions toward us.

Are you saying that you would have preferred not to have existed at all?

Nice false dichotomy.
Hopefully, The Biblical deity is not as fallacious as so many of its followers.

 

[McBell]

I saw a bumper sticker once:

Spread the Word of God,
Use words only if you have to.​

"Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi (disputed).

That is likely where the Bumper Sticker got its inspiration.

To bad so many Christians have decided to ignore it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So there you have it...your freedom.

Not according to your god. I am headed for hell, according to "his" rules.

 

[Jainarayan]

This is the problem that arises with a Cosmic Controller. If God were omniscient and omnipotent, and had a hands-off approach, letting nature take its course regarding human behavior, and establishing another mechanism for reward and retribution, I can understand and accept that God. But a God who knows before a being is created that that being will be eternally punished makes no sense to me at all. The idea of God knowing whom to grant special grace to even before the person is conceived makes little sense also.

 

[Jainarayan]

That is likely where the Bumper Sticker got its inspiration.

To bad so many Christians have decided to ignore it.

For sure... they forget what Jesus said about lights on roof tops.

 

[1137]

So there you have it...your freedom.

Even assuming that is "freedom", it's irrelevant. You've explained yourself that creation is a sick game created by a petty deity to force his creation to choose between loving him or suffering eternally. To be honest, in this paradigm I would much rather side with the devil of your religion. I'm not going to play these games.

 

[InChrist]

That is likely where the Bumper Sticker got its inspiration.

To bad so many Christians have decided to ignore it.

Well, maybe that's because the scriptures give numerous examples of the importance of speaking with words.

I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. John 17:20

Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.” Acts 5:20

Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. Acts 8:4

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Acts 10:44

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

I think it is a priority for the life of a Christian to demonstrate the love and truth of Christ in their daily behavior and interactions, but tell me how is one to discuss spiritual or biblical ideas on an internet forum without using words?

 

[InChrist]

Even assuming that is "freedom", it's irrelevant. You've explained yourself that creation is a sick game created by a petty deity to force his creation to choose between loving him or suffering eternally. To be honest, in this paradigm I would much rather side with the devil of your religion. I'm not going to play these games.

Then that is your freedom.

 

[1137]

Then that is your freedom.

Ultimatums aren't really freedom. God already knows my choice anyways, he's free to help me out if he truly loves me.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Ultimatums aren't really freedom. God already knows my choice anyways, he's free to help me out if he truly loves me.

Haven't you heard? He helps those who help themselves. I think that makes him more or less as useful as a bank that loans money only to people who don't need it.

 

[1137]

Haven't you heard? He helps those who help themselves. I think that makes him more or less as useful as a bank that loans money only to people who don't need it.

I help myself, I'm pretty sure that Christianity believes helping yourself is impossible.