All loving or morally reprehensible?

[1137]

Really, we are not going to come to an agreement or understanding because, from my perspective anyway, your perception is completely misconstrued.

Dodged!

 

[nash8]

I was talking with a good pastor friend of mine about God, heaven, sin, that type of thing. We were actually talking about the idea that Christians need to spread the word, I asked why he cared about salvation of others if he's all set. He responded by saying that God wants everyone saved, since he is all loving and such. I came back saying; well no, if God wanted us all saved he could just do it. He gave some banal mini-speech on sin, after which I restated that if God was all loving we'd be saved, yet the actual case seems to be God needs to get off on our own self loathing, groveling for forgiveness. For the first time in our friendship I saw that look of doubt being fought away, and I couldn't help but smile.

So what's your opinion? Is this Christian god-concept an all loving, perfect father figure or a sadistic, morally reprehensible creepy uncle?

The key question here is: What is your conception of love? Is love giving someone the "freedom" to **** up so to speak? Or is love not allowing anyone to make any wrong decisions at all?

If love is the latter for you, then the world would be EXTREMELY boring in my opinion. If it is the former, than why would you hold God responsible for your actions?

My opinion is: I honestly have no clue what the hell the Christian conception of God is. It varies so much from each person I talk to it's not even funny. Then again, I would consider myself a Christain along some levels, as I do for almost all other religions and/or philosophies respectively. I would wager to say that my conception of God is pretty different from most Christian's conception of God, so are you asking about my conception or "other Christians"?

 

[nash8]

That idea of God helping those who help themselves in not taught in the scriptures.

God helps those who help themselves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems like you need to tell that to the majority of Christians lol.

So the question is, does God help those who don't help themselves?

God, the ultimate welfare program lol. Where do I sign up for some of that?

If you give me your love I will leave you be. If not I will brutally torture every member of your family, all your friends, even some close aquaintences for hours before your eyes before torturing you as well.

On a scale of 1 - 10, how much choice is there REALLY?

Where in the Bible does it only say for hours? I thought it was for eternity lol? And where does God, in the NT of course, say that he will torture all those folks if you don't love him?

I would say HE is both.

Lol, who says your creepy, morally reprehensible uncle doesn't love you, he just loves you in his own unique way. :sarcastic

Whose fault is that?

LMAO

 

[InChrist]

God helps those who help themselves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems like you need to tell that to the majority of Christians lol.

So the question is, does God help those who don't help themselves?

God, the ultimate welfare program lol. Where do I sign up for some of that?

"The phrase is often mistaken as scriptural, but it appears nowhere in the Bible."
God helps those who help themselves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When it comes to being saved from the penalty of sin the scriptures are clear that there is nothing anyone can do to save themselves, instead it is a gift from God by His grace given to anyone who will receive it.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.Romans 6:23

 

[InChrist]

We agree that life doesn't work that way. If as the story goes God created us and this life is to prepare us for heaven then God(knowing us before we were born) would know who would get to heaven. Those people would be born. The rest wouldn't. All parents grandparents extended families etc would be born. Everyone would freely love God.

Would that not be a better world?

I believe the world you have suggested cannot exist if real freedom exists. Truly allowing people to have freedom to choose to love God means the opportunity must actually be there for not loving Him. Anything else is not true freedom and would also mean that God would have to program or force everyone to love Him, which is not real love or freedom at all.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe the world you have suggested cannot exist if real freedom exists. Truly allowing people to have freedom to choose to love God means the opportunity must actually be there for not loving Him. Anything else is not true freedom and would also mean that God would have to program or force everyone to love Him, which is not real love or freedom at all.

It's not real love or freedom when you have a threat hanging over your head, either.

 

[InChrist]

Even assuming that is "freedom", it's irrelevant. You've explained yourself that creation is a sick game created by a petty deity to force his creation to choose between loving him or suffering eternally. To be honest, in this paradigm I would much rather side with the devil of your religion. I'm not going to play these games.

Are you sure you have a correct understanding? You have determined that the devil or satan is more worthy of your trust, yet the scriptures plainly call him the father of lies seeking whom he may devour.

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

 

[adi2d]

I believe the world you have suggested cannot exist if real freedom exists. Truly allowing people to have freedom to choose to love God means the opportunity must actually be there for not loving Him. Anything else is not true freedom and would also mean that God would have to program or force everyone to love Him, which is not real love or freedom at all.

People would be free to love Him or not. The ones that truly love him would be born on this earth to live and die until they enter heaven. The people that wouldn't freely love him wouldn't be. No programing or force involved.

Or He could have put that darn tree somewhere else in the first place but that's a topic for another day

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Are you sure you have a correct understanding? You have determined that the devil or satan is more worthy of your trust, yet the scriptures plainly call him the father of lies seeking whom he may devour.

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Lol. That's your "escape card" so that you don't have to bother to argue with people anymore who see through the crap of Christianity.

 

[InChrist]

It's not real love or freedom when you have a threat hanging over your head, either.

I don't think it is any more of a threat than coming to a divide in a road. You have a choice of two directions. According to the revelation of God in the scriptures, one leads to a loving heavenly Father and the other leads to Satan an evil, malicious being. Satan is the one who desires to torment God's creation. It is your choice with whom you want to spend eternity with and in what kind of environment.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't think it is any more of a threat than coming to a divide in a road. You have a choice of two directions. According to the revelation of God in the scriptures, one leads to a loving heavenly Father and the other leads to Satan an evil, malicious being. Satan is the one who desires to torment God's creation. It is your choice with whom you want to spend eternity with and in what kind of environment.

Yet this is a threat that your god is responsible for in the first place. Nevermind the nonsense of Christianity's teachings about Satan.

 

[InChrist]

People would be free to love Him or not. The ones that truly love him would be born on this earth to live and die until they enter heaven. The people that wouldn't freely love him wouldn't be. No programing or force involved.

What if one of the ones who did not freely love God was the mother of one who would love Him? How would the one who would love God come into existence if their mother was never born?

 

[InChrist]

Yet this is a threat that your god is responsible for in the first place. Nevermind the nonsense of Christianity's teachings about Satan.

Like I said, I don't see it as a threat. If you do and you think that the biblical warnings about satan are nonsense then this says to me that he has you blinded and right where he wants you.

 

[adi2d]

What if one of the ones who did not freely love God was the mother of one who would love Him? How would the one who would love God come into existence if their mother was never born?

Obviously one who wasn't born would not be a mother.

On a more serious note. I mean you no disrespect. I am just playing 'what if'. You have every right to your beliefs no matter what some chuckleheads here on RF might say

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Like I said, I don't see it as a threat. If you do and you think that the biblical warnings about satan are nonsense then this says to me that he has you blinded and right where he wants you.

LOL. This is all about control in the end. "If you don''t believe what I believe, then you're under the control of evil! My way or else!" That's authoritarian behavior. Reality isn't black and white. Besides, your god is responsible for all that exists, the good and the bad:

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7

Christianity is a nonsense. It's not even able to be reconciled to the Hebrew Bible. The notion of an ultimate good and ultimate evil principle were taken from dualist belief systems like Zoroastrianism.

Plus, your god knew from the beginning, before "he" created anything, what would happen. Yet "he" chose to create the universe, the angels and humanity, anyway. "He" knew that Satan would rebel and that "he" would create a place of everlasting punishment for those rebellious angels and humans. "He" knew from the beginning that all of "his" creatures would live in a world of suffering, pain, strife and death. "He" could've created it any other way, but choose this model to run with. So if we accept that all of this is true, then it means your god is actually the evil one and we should rebel against "him" since "he" was such a crappy excuse for a creator in the first place. It's all "his" fault, but "he" tries to place the blame on humans and angels, when "he" is responsible for all that exists in the first place.

 

[1137]

Are you sure you have a correct understanding? You have determined that the devil or satan is more worthy of your trust, yet the scriptures plainly call him the father of lies seeking whom he may devour.

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

A deity that created all life just to force it into loving Him cannot be trusted. For all we know your God is the demiurge and Satan is an angel of light. What other god form would do something so lowly and morally questiable? Not to menton he's connived most of the world that he's loving and looking out for our best interests... Sketchy.

 

[InChrist]

LOL. This is all about control in the end. "If you don''t believe what I believe, then you're under the control of evil! My way or else!" That's authoritarian behavior. Reality isn't black and white. Besides, your god is responsible for all that exists, the good and the bad:

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7

Christianity is a nonsense. It's not even able to be reconciled to the Hebrew Bible. The notion of an ultimate good and ultimate evil principle were taken from dualist belief systems like Zoroastrianism.

Plus, your god knew from the beginning, before "he" created anything, what would happen. Yet "he" chose to create the universe, the angels and humanity, anyway. "He" knew that Satan would rebel and that "he" would create a place of everlasting punishment for those rebellious angels and humans. "He" knew from the beginning that all of "his" creatures would live in a world of suffering, pain, strife and death. "He" could've created it any other way, but choose this model to run with. So if we accept that all of this is true, then it means your god is actually the evil one and we should rebel against "him" since "he" was such a crappy excuse for a creator in the first place. It's all "his" fault, but "he" tries to place the blame on humans and angels, when "he" is responsible for all that exists in the first place.

I can totally agree with you that I believe God knew what would happen, yet He chose to create the universe. Now, my question is this... if God is as the scriptures portray Him to be, all knowing, wise, loving, holy, righteous, etc., then don't you think that if there was a better way to create the universe He would have known about it and would have created it differently? Can you not even consider the possibility that God created things in the way they are because He knew it was the best way do do so? How do you reach the conclusion that your human wisdom is superior to the Creator of the universe?

 

[InChrist]

A deity that created all life just to force it into loving Him cannot be trusted. For all we know your God is the demiurge and Satan is an angel of light. What other god form would do something so lowly and morally questiable? Not to menton he's connived most of the world that he's loving and looking out for our best interests... Sketchy.

Again, how do you know that your perceptions about God are correct? And I'll ask you the same questions I asked the guy above...if God is as the scriptures portray Him to be, all knowing, wise, loving, holy, righteous, etc., then don't you think that if there was a better way to create the universe He would have known about it and would have created it differently? Can you not even consider the possibility that God created things in the way they are because He knew it was the best way do do so? How do you reach the conclusion that your human wisdom is superior to the Creator of the universe?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I can totally agree with you that I believe God knew what would happen, yet He chose to create the universe. Now, my question is this... if God is as the scriptures portray Him to be, all knowing, wise, loving, holy, righteous, etc., then don't you think that if there was a better way to create the universe He would have known about it and would have created it differently? Can you not even consider the possibility that God created things in the way they are because He knew it was the best way do do so? How do you reach the conclusion that your human wisdom is superior to the Creator of the universe?

Well, if "he" couldn't think of anything better than this, then "he" certainly is not "perfect", let alone "all-good".

I don't believe in any creator, as I've said. I am discussing concepts. Doesn't mean that I lend them any credibility, since I don't.

 

[1137]

Again, how do you know that your perceptions about God are correct? And I'll ask you the same questions I asked the guy above...if God is as the scriptures portray Him to be, all knowing, wise, loving, holy, righteous, etc., then don't you think that if there was a better way to create the universe He would have known about it and would have created it differently? Can you not even consider the possibility that God created things in the way they are because He knew it was the best way do do so? How do you reach the conclusion that your human wisdom is superior to the Creator of the universe?

It's scripture, if I'm not mistaken, teaching to love god or perish. I do see why you might believe this to be a great world from god's perspective, it's the ultimate ultimatum! Again, is it benevolent or manipulative to say in will let you be if you love me but torture you if you do not?