All loving or morally reprehensible?

[nash8]

It's not real love or freedom when you have a threat hanging over your head, either.

Again, can you cite some evidence to where this threat is. Also within that, can you confirm to me that these particular verses were included in the original manuscripts of the NT, not the one that was formed after the council of Nicea.

If he didn't create the ability for suffering, then how could you have freedom? If all he made was things that were "good", then the only choice you would have would to do "good" things. In order to have free will, you have to have atleast two choices.

Would you rather have freedom or peace? As the old saying goes, you can't have your cake and eat it too? Even though your supposed to eat cake, so I dunno.

Lol. That's your "escape card" so that you don't have to bother to argue with people anymore who see through the crap of Christianity.

I always try to argue with you about Christianity, but we both end up making 2 page long posts, and then you say you don't wanna argue with me anymore. What gives??? Am I not good enough to solicit argumentation from you anymore Saint?

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7

I keep trying to tell people that Judaism is a Panthiestic conception of God, but they don't believe me. Thanks for giving me some BOOM, BOOM... FIREPOWER.

Christianity is a nonsense. It's not even able to be reconciled to the Hebrew Bible. The notion of an ultimate good and ultimate evil principle were taken from dualist belief systems like Zoroastrianism.

Judaism is pretty dualistic in and of itself, and their are plenty of of "devil" references in the OT. I would even wager to say that the most commonly used named for the conception even came from the Essenes, "ah-satan", which was a term used for those that weren't Essenes.

A deity that created all life just to force it into loving Him cannot be trusted. For all we know your God is the demiurge and Satan is an angel of light. What other god form would do something so lowly and morally questiable? Not to menton he's connived most of the world that he's loving and looking out for our best interests... Sketchy.

But that particular conception of diety didn't create life just to force it into loving him. That's the whole point of this thread. If God Created everything, and he made it "all great" then you would not have the choice to do anything but "good things". The ability to be able to choose to do "bad" things that cause me suffering is the greatest expression of love in my opinion. That's Freedom.

If a dope fiend asks you to buy drugs for him because he is suffering, do you continue to give him drugs so that he doesn't suffer? Or do you encourage him to get into a rehab program, that during the course of it, will cause him even more suffering?

Which is love?

Well, if "he" couldn't think of anything better than this, then "he" certainly is not "perfect", let alone "all-good".

I personally think "this" is amazing. And I would say whatever it is that created "this" may not be perfect, but is definitely all good. He gave you the choice to decide whether or not you want to suffer, what's more benevolent than that?

It's scripture, if I'm not mistaken, teaching to love god or perish. I do see why you might believe this to be a great world from god's perspective, it's the ultimate ultimatum! Again, is it benevolent or manipulative to say in will let you be if you love me but torture you if you do not?

What scripture might this be?

I wouldn't call a universe built on strife, pain, suffering and death "perfect". None of those things would come from a "perfect" creator with a "perfect" plan.

I don't think the universe is built on strife, pain, and suffering, are they within the universe, yes of course, if they weren't you wouldn't have freedom. If all you had was pleasure, would you have choice? The choice to indulge in pleasure? Is that a choice at certain conceptualizations?

As far as death goes, the universe would be a pretty crowded place, earth would be definitely, if things didn't die. Would Earth be a better or worse place if things didn't die in your opinion?

If "he" really was "perfect", then evil would not have come into existence. Nothing would've gone wrong since perfection can only beget perfection.

I'm dissapointed in you Frankenstein, you of all people should realize that what some people consider "evil" is in actuallity "perfection". When you adhere to the conception that "good" equal perfect perception than you are adhering to the conception of objective morality. That certain things

Besides, if "he" is truly "perfect", then why did "he" create anything at all?

He got bored?


[qutoe] The Gods I believe in don't want nor need anything from humanity. They don't care if we love or believe in Them. They will continue to perform Their purpose, as always. It's like humans yearning for ants to love them. I don't care if ants love me. Why is your god so petty, if "he" is "perfect"? Your god is not "perfect". It is illogical to claim otherwise.[/quote]

From what I gathered, the Hellenistic Gods required constant admiration and reverence from their human subjects. What's your perspective?

Keep telling yourself this if it helps rationalize the horrible nature of our Existence.

If the nature of your existence is horrible, you choose for it to be horrible. You should think better than this coming from a LHP standpoint. You choose to view humanity as a horrible existence, I however do not, why is their this descretion between our two views?

The only Christians that make sense are Gnostic Christians. The rest is built on foolishness.

Lol, I don't know if I'd go that far, those crazy ole' Gnostics got some seriously crazy ideas from my perspective too. But I would agree that for the most part, they have the best Christian belief system.

You should should send a PM to Vouthon on the forums. He's got a very interesting perspective on Christianity and has some very solid quotes to back up his though proccess.

 

[nash8]

I agree that if god is truly all powerful he should be able to save us all easily. He doesnt. He created hell instead. Therefore he is an evil god. In my view Lucifer is the good guy.

What's the fun in him saving us all. If he does that, then we lose the freedom to save ourselves.

Of course humans are responsible for the bad that we personally create. But even much of the bad things that humans are responsible for are a product of existential crisis.

What's existential crisis, and why are "the bad things" a product of this and not our own poor decisions?

Our desperation, ultimate despair and feeling of displacement in a cruel world that seemingly offers no answers.

Speak for yourself. Choose not to feel that way.

We super-apes are a tortured species. We're not responsible for being born into a universe built on suffering, pain and violence.

Why do you say the universe is built on suffering, pain, and violence?

We're not responsible for the reality that living beings must consume each other in order to survive.

How would you suggest live goes on without this being the case?

We're not responsible for the harsh reality of bloodied tooth and claw and sentient beings rent asunder, in horrific agony, while fighting for their lives in Nature.

Have you ever spoken to one of these animals before, or are you just assuming?

If there is a creator, then this creator is the one to be held responsible for this. "He" could've made it so that all creatures receive the essential energy for survival directly from the Sun, like plants do.

And if he did this, could you honestly say that the sun's energy would not be depleted at a much, much more rapid level, maybe even at a level so fast that the sun's energy would have been depleted by the time of the dinosaurs, thus never even allowing you the ability to even think this.

Humans are not so important as to affect the inherent order of the universe.

speak for yourself

Are we also responsible for the collision of gigantic celestial bodies into one another, that destroy planets and whatever may be living on them, too? Are we responsible for the death of Suns, supernovas and black holes?

Again, if everything lasted forever, the universe would be a very crowded place.

As others have posted the discussion is about the concept of God. Would an all loving God create all the suffering in this world?

No, but he'd allow it.

He has allowed suffering for awhile, but He is not done yet. Jesus showed us that you can accept suffering and give back love. I do not see eternity. I do not have all the answers and I do not judge God. I am not even in a position to judge my neighbor because I have not walked in their shoes. How can I expect to judge God when I can not see as He sees or think as He thinks.

Great post.

He allows suffering. Causes some of it. WHY is the question. In an earlier post I showed one way suffering could be reduced. I'm a pretty dim bulb and I can't see why we would need to suffer to please an all knowing all powerful deity

How does he cause some of it? And if a Christian says that you need to suffer to please God... their dumb and you should probably disregard any subsequent statements.

No... Judaism understands God is creator of both. Jews in Auschwitz found god guilty for crimes against humanity.

Can you cite some evidence for this statement?

The book of Job? Really? That book shows two bullies messing up a mans life just because they can. Taking a mans family is cruel. And please don't excuse it by saying Job got new family. More cruel than pulling wings off a fly. IMHO of course

I would agree. Job's ****** up in my opinion, and I never really got how that story was supposed to encourage belief in diety lol.

Yes, Catholicism loves suffering. It loves suffering so much that it's almost a sacrament in of itself. Suffer your way into "holiness". It's an S&M religion.

If Catholicism loved suffering, they wouldn't give you those cool pull-out cushion things to kneel on when you pray. Not all Catholicicism believes in suffering, talk to Vouthon.

Well, it's debatable if those who take on the mortification of the flesh as a physical practice (such as self-flagellation and crucifying themselves during Lenten celebrations) actually enjoy what they're doing, but Catholicism certainly likes suffering and views it as holy. Which is probably one of the underlying reasons that Catholicism is so against euthanasia for the terminally ill. When you suffer, it is seen as coming into unity with Jesus. Mother Teresa would praise the suffering of the poor as holy.

So do many other "peaceful", "benevolent" religions like Buddhism and the likes. But just like Catholicism not all sects and members within the religions hold the same views.

Saying that Yahweh is responsible for it doesn't answer why "he" does it or why it happens. It doesn't answer the question of purpose.

Because he got bored.

Catholics should not be crucifying themselves - self mutilation is considered a sin. Euthenasia is wrong because it is a sin to kill or committ suicide. Remember I said the goal was unite your will to His Will, not run away from suffering and choose sin.

Totally disagree with this. The point of suffering in my opinion is to learn. If theres a minimal chance of learning to occur than I would totally agree with someone taking their own life. For example, if someone was barely concious, could barely think, and was in an extreme amount of pain. I don't see them wanting to end their life as sin, because someone or some book says it is. Morality is not objective.

 

[idav]

I know what the official reasoning is, but I question if the Church's praise of suffering as holy is an underlying reason for it.

It is because they believe they deserve punishment. They are told that Father says they are bad and look what god did to his favorite son. Bible gods call for blood and suffering is a bit archaic.

 

[BSM1]

I was talking with a good pastor friend of mine about God, heaven, sin, that type of thing. We were actually talking about the idea that Christians need to spread the word, I asked why he cared about salvation of others if he's all set. He responded by saying that God wants everyone saved, since he is all loving and such. I came back saying; well no, if God wanted us all saved he could just do it. He gave some banal mini-speech on sin, after which I restated that if God was all loving we'd be saved, yet the actual case seems to be God needs to get off on our own self loathing, groveling for forgiveness. For the first time in our friendship I saw that look of doubt being fought away, and I couldn't help but smile.

So what's your opinion? Is this Christian god-concept an all loving, perfect father figure or a sadistic, morally reprehensible creepy uncle?

I think you have just experienced the bias humans have when it comes to a deity. It seems many religious types cannot accept-or even comprehend-a god that does not possess the same emotions as the observer. A "God" does not want or need anything. Nor would a "God" be given to such petty emotions as angry, jealousy, envy, or greed. A true God would never have emotions although a true God would be these emotion. I have found that anyone who tells you what God wants is generally full of crap. No one really can know the mind of God.

 

[yokomodoful]

It is because they believe they deserve punishment. They are told that Father says they are bad and look what god did to his favorite son. Bible gods call for blood and suffering is a bit archaic.

Jesus is God, the second person of the trinity. He freely chose to lay down his life as a man for our salvation. He created us, gave us free will, wills are continued existance, redeemed us when we sinned and only asks us to love God and neighbor. Not for Himself, but for us. Suffering is a fact of life, but Jesus has defeated death and has shown us the way. What we deserve is to claim our true identity as adopted sons and daughters of the one, true, God.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I always try to argue with you about Christianity, but we both end up making 2 page long posts, and then you say you don't wanna argue with me anymore. What gives??? Am I not good enough to solicit argumentation from you anymore Saint?

Pretty much. We just end up going around and around in circles and the thread goes off topic. It doesn't help that you address points line by line, and it ends up taking about an hour just to respond to one post of yours. Try answering the overall point of posts instead of sentence by sentence. That grates on my nerves.

So I'm not interested in talking to you at all, honestly.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is because they believe they deserve punishment. They are told that Father says they are bad and look what god did to his favorite son. Bible gods call for blood and suffering is a bit archaic.

That's a good point and a possibility since a certain overall viewpoint is the foundation of Christian thinking.

 

[InChrist]

Of course humans are responsible for the bad that we personally create. But even much of the bad things that humans are responsible for are a product of existential crisis. Our desperation, ultimate despair and feeling of displacement in a cruel world that seemingly offers no answers. We super-apes are a tortured species. We're not responsible for being born into a universe built on suffering, pain and violence. We didn't create the predator/prey dynamic. We're not responsible for the reality that living beings must consume each other in order to survive. We're not responsible for the harsh reality of bloodied tooth and claw and sentient beings rent asunder, in horrific agony, while fighting for their lives in Nature. If there is a creator, then this creator is the one to be held responsible for this. "He" could've made it so that all creatures receive the essential energy for survival directly from the Sun, like plants do. But, no. "He" created plant eaters and meat eaters. But apparently you Christians wish to blame those things on the fall of man, which is a sad cop-out. Which brings another problem into the picture: hubris. Humans are not so important as to affect the inherent order of the universe. Are we also responsible for the collision of gigantic celestial bodies into one another, that destroy planets and whatever may be living on them, too? Are we responsible for the death of Suns, supernovas and black holes?

Aren’t we responsible? If you read the Bible you cannot say this world was built on suffering, pain, and violence because the scriptures indicate otherwise. As a Christian my perspective is based on the scriptures, which I believe contains revelation about reality from God and the reasons things are as they are which we otherwise would not know or understand. One of those revelations is that in the beginning of earth’s history there was no suffering, there was no predator/prey dynamic. All creatures were vegetarians and all needs were abundantly supplied. The other revelation is that indeed it was sin which brought about the fallen state of harshness and suffering on earth and throughout the entire physical universe as humanity is in rebellion and out of sic with God's order and following satan's lead instead. All of nature is groaning for redemption at this time. It’s not a cop-out or a situation of blame, it is revealed information from the Creator God who knows and knows the solution.

 

[yokomodoful]

Aren’t we responsible? If you read the Bible you cannot say this world was built on suffering, pain, and violence because the scriptures indicate otherwise. As a Christian my perspective is based on the scriptures, which I believe contains revelation about reality from God and the reasons things are as they are which we otherwise would not know or understand. One of those revelations is that in the beginning of earth’s history there was no suffering, there was no predator/prey dynamic. All creatures were vegetarians and all needs were abundantly supplied. The other revelation is that indeed it was sin which brought about the fallen state of harshness and suffering on earth and throughout the entire physical universe as humanity is in rebellion and out of sic with God's order and following satan's lead instead. All of nature is groaning for redemption at this time. It’s not a cop-out or a situation of blame, it is revealed information from the Creator God who knows and knows the solution.

Hi In Christ.
Love your reply and love your link on who Jesus is. This world is but a fraction of a second when compared to eternity. The lamb will lie down with the lion.

 

[buadum]

God loves all his children,all of them.

Yet will happily send many to hell or return to dust or whatever.

Now I ask you does that make sense.

 

[adi2d]

Aren’t we responsible? If you read the Bible you cannot say this world was built on suffering, pain, and violence because the scriptures indicate otherwise. As a Christian my perspective is based on the scriptures, which I believe contains revelation about reality from God and the reasons things are as they are which we otherwise would not know or understand. One of those revelations is that in the beginning of earth’s history there was no suffering, there was no predator/prey dynamic. All creatures were vegetarians and all needs were abundantly supplied. The other revelation is that indeed it was sin which brought about the fallen state of harshness and suffering on earth and throughout the entire physical universe as humanity is in rebellion and out of sic with God's order and following satan's lead instead. All of nature is groaning for redemption at this time. It’s not a cop-out or a situation of blame, it is revealed information from the Creator God who knows and knows the solution.

You failed to answer why all the violence in the world that man doesn't control. Why would animal violence start with mans sin? Are the hurricanes and earthquakes due to mans sin?

What was the first act of violence recorded?

 

[buadum]

You failed to answer why all the violence in the world that man doesn't control. Why would animal violence start with mans sin? Are the hurricanes and earthquakes due to mans sin?

What was the first act of violence recorded?

Hurricanes are not violence, it's the weather,lol.
Animal violence is for survival.

 

[adi2d]

Hurricanes are not violence, it's the weather,lol.
Animal violence is for survival.

Its just weather but its violence to the people killed

The post I answered said animals were not violent before mans sin

 

[yokomodoful]

God loves all his children,all of them.

Yet will happily send many to hell or return to dust or whatever.

Now I ask you does that make sense.

Hell is simply a choice to be separated from God. It is unpleasant and torturous because we are made to be with God. It is against our nature to be without Him. God will however not force anyone to be with Him.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Aren’t we responsible? If you read the Bible you cannot say this world was built on suffering, pain, and violence because the scriptures indicate otherwise. As a Christian my perspective is based on the scriptures, which I believe contains revelation about reality from God and the reasons things are as they are which we otherwise would not know or understand. One of those revelations is that in the beginning of earth’s history there was no suffering, there was no predator/prey dynamic. All creatures were vegetarians and all needs were abundantly supplied. The other revelation is that indeed it was sin which brought about the fallen state of harshness and suffering on earth and throughout the entire physical universe as humanity is in rebellion and out of sic with God's order and following satan's lead instead. All of nature is groaning for redemption at this time. It’s not a cop-out or a situation of blame, it is revealed information from the Creator God who knows and knows the solution.

Please explain how humans have anything to do with collisions with asteroids, meteors, stars dying, etc. Better yet, provide some evidence.

When people say stuff like this, it just makes you look like a nutcase. It's crazy talk. Nothing we do, especially our ancient ancestors, had anything to do with how the universe functions. And I'm being nice, as well, since that sort of talk makes me fear for your mental health.

 

[InChrist]

You failed to answer why all the violence in the world that man doesn't control. Why would animal violence start with mans sin? Are the hurricanes and earthquakes due to mans sin?

What was the first act of violence recorded?

According to the scriptures, God gave dominion over the earth to mankind. Rather than trusting God's wisdom in exercising their dominion what did they do? Instead of following God's direction they listened to the devil, believed him and followed his suggestion. Since that time this world has known the violence which is instigated by satan and those who follow him instead of God the Creator. One of satan's titles is "the prince of the power of the air"( Eph.2:2) so this could possibly mean that when humans submitted the dominion given to them to satan, he gained a certain (limited) amount of power over the weather conditions.

What do you consider to be the first recorded act of violence?

 

[InChrist]

Please explain how humans have anything to do with collisions with asteroids, meteors, stars dying, etc. Better yet, provide some evidence.

When people say stuff like this, it just makes you look like a nutcase. It's crazy talk. Nothing we do, especially our ancient ancestors, had anything to do with how the universe functions. And I'm being nice, as well, since that sort of talk makes me fear for your mental health.

Whatever, you can consider me a nutcase if you must, I understand, but I just see it as spiritual blindness on your end and realize you don't see the big picture. The scriptures give every indication that the universe is dying...that includes everything.

 

[adi2d]

According to the scriptures, God gave dominion over the earth to mankind. Rather than trusting God's wisdom in exercising their dominion what did they do? Instead of following God's direction they listened to the devil, believed him and followed his suggestion. Since that time this world has known the violence which is instigated by satan and those who follow him instead of God the Creator. One of satan's titles is "the prince of the power of the air"( Eph.2:2) so this could possibly mean that when humans submitted the dominion given to them to satan, he gained a certain (limited) amount of power over the weather conditions.

What do you consider to be the first recorded act of violence?

They disobeyed not knowing that it was evil not to obey. It was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't see how they could be responsible. Satan was there(if he was there) because God allowed him to be.

The first violence is just a few verses away

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Whatever, you can consider me a nutcase if you must, I understand, but I just see it as spiritual blindness on your end and realize you don't see the big picture. The scriptures give every indication that the universe is dying...that includes everything.

Look, there's reality and there's...well, everything else. It's all good and fine to have a spiritual point of view. I believe in many Gods, myself. However, my beliefs don't transgress everything known to science about reality like your beliefs do. You truly think that humans had anything to do with what goes on in the universe, billions of light years away? If you really do think that, you need to get psychiatric help because you're not living in reality. Something wrong with your brain function. Head injury, perhaps?

Humans are just one species out of millions living on a planet that's in one solar system on the edges of one galaxy out of billions. Our galaxy isn't even that large, either. In fact, it's set to "collide" with one much bigger than it within a few billion years so. We're not that special and we don't have the sort of powers to rearrange the Cosmos as you think we do. Not even the Gods Themselves have that sort of power. You're nuts. You're the one not seeing the big picture and humanity's rather tiny place within it. We should feel small, because we are -very small.

 

[Benoni]

I belive very much it is God's plan in the ages to come to save all people, and this is based on the bible not my opinion. Not to do this would make Jesus blood a failure.

I was talking with a good pastor friend of mine about God, heaven, sin, that type of thing. We were actually talking about the idea that Christians need to spread the word, I asked why he cared about salvation of others if he's all set. He responded by saying that God wants everyone saved, since he is all loving and such. I came back saying; well no, if God wanted us all saved he could just do it. He gave some banal mini-speech on sin, after which I restated that if God was all loving we'd be saved, yet the actual case seems to be God needs to get off on our own self loathing, groveling for forgiveness. For the first time in our friendship I saw that look of doubt being fought away, and I couldn't help but smile.

So what's your opinion? Is this Christian god-concept an all loving, perfect father figure or a sadistic, morally reprehensible creepy uncle?