All loving or morally reprehensible?

[InChrist]

They disobeyed not knowing that it was evil not to obey. It was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't see how they could be responsible. Satan was there(if he was there) because God allowed him to be.

The first violence is just a few verses away

I see no reason to conclude that because they did not know about evil it means that they could not comprehend how to obey a direct command from their Creator or that it was wrong to disobey and that they were not responsible. God gave them one clear command and I believe they were capable of fully understanding, yet they chose to disobey. The tree was there and Satan was allowed because this was a test, one simple clear test to see where their allegiance was...to God their Creator or satan and self.

Are you referring to the first violence committed by humans or something else?

 

[adi2d]

I see no reason to conclude that because they did not know about evil it means that they could not comprehend how to obey a direct command from their Creator or that it was wrong to disobey and that they were not responsible. God gave them one clear command and I believe they were capable of fully understanding, yet they chose to disobey. The tree was there and Satan was allowed because this was a test, one simple clear test to see where their allegiance was...to God their Creator or satan and self.

Are you referring to the first violence committed by humans or something else?

You believe but I don't see it written that way. How could the know it was wrong if tjey didn't have the knowledge?

God doesn't need to do tests. He already knows the outcome. So if he allowed satan in knowing the results to come how could it be adam and eves fault?

 

[InChrist]

Look, there's reality and there's...well, everything else. It's all good and fine to have a spiritual point of view. I believe in many Gods, myself. However, my beliefs don't transgress everything known to science about reality like your beliefs do. You truly think that humans had anything to do with what goes on in the universe, billions of light years away? If you really do think that, you need to get psychiatric help because you're not living in reality. Something wrong with your brain function. Head injury, perhaps?

Humans are just one species out of millions living on a planet that's in one solar system on the edges of one galaxy out of billions. Our galaxy isn't even that large, either. In fact, it's set to "collide" with one much bigger than it within a few billion years so. We're not that special and we don't have the sort of powers to rearrange the Cosmos as you think we do. Not even the Gods Themselves have that sort of power. You're nuts. You're the one not seeing the big picture and humanity's rather tiny place within it. We should feel small, because we are -very small.

I do feel very small, but I consider the God who created all things to be incredibly big and powerful. I don't believe humans have the power to control the cosmos, yet, the scriptures are clear that the God who created humans in His image has a plan and eternal purpose and also created the universe for this end. So what takes place with humanity and the unseen spiritual entities has an impact upon the entire universe.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile. 1 Corinthians 3:18-20

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I do feel very small, but I consider the God who created all things to be incredibly big and powerful. I don't believe humans have the power to control the cosmos, yet, the scriptures are clear that the God who created humans in His image has a plan and eternal purpose and also created the universe for this end. So what takes place with humanity and the unseen spiritual entities has an impact upon the entire universe.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile. 1 Corinthians 3:18-20

You still haven't explained how humans could have had anything to do with reordering the workings of Nature. The Universe and Nature has been doing its things for over 13 billion years now. Life on this planet has existed for 10s of millions of years. Modern humans have only been here for about 200,000. The Cosmos got along just fine without us for billions of years. If we disappeared right now, nothing would change in the big picture.

 

[InChrist]

You believe but I don't see it written that way. How could the know it was wrong if tjey didn't have the knowledge?

God doesn't need to do tests. He already knows the outcome. So if he allowed satan in knowing the results to come how could it be adam and eves fault?

They could know it was wrong because God told them it was wrong. Simple. He had already demonstrated His love and care for them so they knew He was trustworthy and concerned for their well-being. To disregard His one rule showed a lack of love, trust, respect, and obedience.

God knowing that they would disobey does not remove the fact that they chose to do so or their own personal responsibility.

 

[InChrist]

You still haven't explained how humans could have had anything to do with reordering the workings of Nature. The Universe and Nature has been doing its things for over 13 billion years now. Life on this planet has existed for 10s of millions of years. Modern humans have only been here for about 200,000. The Cosmos got along just fine without us for billions of years. If we disappeared right now, nothing would change in the big picture.

I don't think we can continue this discussion since our worldviews are so diametrically opposed and to do so would get into a whole creation/evolution discussion which is off topic for this thread.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't think we can continue this discussion since our worldviews are so diametrically opposed and to do so would get into a whole creation/evolution discussion which is off topic for this thread.

Well, my worldview is informed by science and logic, not literal readings of archaic religious writings from the Bronze Age. I'm not credulous enough for religious hucksterism.

 

[adi2d]

They could know it was wrong because God told them it was wrong. Simple. He had already demonstrated His love and care for them so they knew He was trustworthy and concerned for their well-being. To disregard His one rule showed a lack of love, trust, respect, and obedience.

God knowing that they would disobey does not remove the fact that they chose to do so or their own personal responsibility.

You keep saying they knew it was wrong. I don't see how before they ate from the tree. He gave them freewill. Left them with a conman. Then blamer them when they were conned. Not just them but everyone from then on. He set up all the rules and you feel others are to blame


Glad to see you rethought your idea that God was testing them

 

[yokomodoful]

You still haven't explained how humans could have had anything to do with reordering the workings of Nature. The Universe and Nature has been doing its things for over 13 billion years now. Life on this planet has existed for 10s of millions of years. Modern humans have only been here for about 200,000. The Cosmos got along just fine without us for billions of years. If we disappeared right now, nothing would change in the big picture.

It is a mistake to compare the bible to a science book. The bible is a collection of God inspired stories that explain the covenant relationship between God and His people. Genesis tells us about who we are and who God is. There were no eye witnesses to the creation of the universe or the creation of Adam. God used 7 days because 7 is repeated throughout the bible from Abraham to Noah to Moses and to Christ as a sign of the covenant relationship between God and His people. The stories tell us of the trials and failures of His prophets and His people. They also tell of the one which defeated death and evil. He will defeat evil completely when He comes again.

Asteroids destroying something or a Lion catching prey is not evil. For something to be sin or evil a person has to have full knowledge and consent to disobey God. Even though Adam and Eve did not know good and evil yet, they did know that their creator told them not to eat of that tree and they did anyway. No one forced them. This impact has everything to do with our relationship with God and not much to do with the cosmos. The rest of the bible is about man's relationship with each other and with God. All with some success and a lot of failure until the perfect success of Jesus.

God has never supplied a complete answer to why we have to suffer. Does that mean He is morally reprehensible - No. What God is defines what is morally good. Suffering is a fact of life, but He teaches us how to deal with the suffering by the stories of the trials of His people and the life, passion, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. He tells us that He will never leave us orphans. He has experienced the suffering of this world with us and we never have to experience it alone.

 

[buadum]

Its just weather but its violence to the people killed

The post I answered said animals were not violent before mans sin

so what did carnivores eat, lettuce.

Do you really believe that.

and violence is acted out with deliberation.

hurricanes, even if they kill are not acting with intelligence or thought, they simply are.

 

[buadum]

Hell is simply a choice to be separated from God. It is unpleasant and torturous because we are made to be with God. It is against our nature to be without Him. God will however not force anyone to be with Him.

He created people with free will according to christians, so why punish them for exercising that will he himself gave,not very forgiving.

He created hell, therefore he is responsible for them going there,if he stopped playing hide and seek people would not doubt his existence.

He may well exist, but as long as he hides no one can be faulted for not believing, such a mighty god surely would not fail to get his message across yet he is failing.

Don't say its because we are not looking either, look high and low and there is no proof, you cannot show me anything.

 

[McBell]

and violence is acted out with deliberation.

hurricanes, even if they kill are not acting with intelligence or thought, they simply are.

I disagree:

1
a: exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse (as in warfare effecting illegal entry into a house)
b: an instance of violent treatment or procedure
2: injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation : outrage
3
a: intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force <the violence of the storm>
b: vehement feeling or expression : fervor; also : an instance of such action or feeling
c: a clashing or jarring quality : discordance
4: undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)​

"Violence." Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 6 Nov. 2013. <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence>.

 

[Mycroft]

I was talking with a good pastor friend of mine about God, heaven, sin, that type of thing. We were actually talking about the idea that Christians need to spread the word, I asked why he cared about salvation of others if he's all set. He responded by saying that God wants everyone saved, since he is all loving and such. I came back saying; well no, if God wanted us all saved he could just do it. He gave some banal mini-speech on sin, after which I restated that if God was all loving we'd be saved, yet the actual case seems to be God needs to get off on our own self loathing, groveling for forgiveness. For the first time in our friendship I saw that look of doubt being fought away, and I couldn't help but smile.

So what's your opinion? Is this Christian god-concept an all loving, perfect father figure or a sadistic, morally reprehensible creepy uncle?

To me, I have never heard of anything more evil than god. In the old testament, at least, god is a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

As well as a wicked trickster. He told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, a command that requires the knowledge of right and wrong. But didn't program in that prerequisite knowledge of right and wrong. Therefore it wasn't difficult for the serpent to persuade eve to eat it, she couldn't have known it was wrong because she had no concept of 'wrong'. god must have known that, assuming omniscience, before he even created the universe, the garden, the serpent or eve.

He also shows petty selfishness. Lucifer (originally there's no mention of a Satan) essentially challenged authority to get booted out of heaven. Something we can all get behind. He questioned why god, essentially, should have all of the power. And indeed it's a valid question. Why should god have all of the power? Which authority states this other than god himself, the one refusing to share? Lucifer wasn't alone in his ideas, either. But god wasn't having any of it and so rather than sit down and try to explain it to the angels, cast them out instead.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is a mistake to compare the bible to a science book. The bible is a collection of God inspired stories that explain the covenant relationship between God and His people. Genesis tells us about who we are and who God is. There were no eye witnesses to the creation of the universe or the creation of Adam. God used 7 days because 7 is repeated throughout the bible from Abraham to Noah to Moses and to Christ as a sign of the covenant relationship between God and His people. The stories tell us of the trials and failures of His prophets and His people. They also tell of the one which defeated death and evil. He will defeat evil completely when He comes again.

Asteroids destroying something or a Lion catching prey is not evil. For something to be sin or evil a person has to have full knowledge and consent to disobey God. Even though Adam and Eve did not know good and evil yet, they did know that their creator told them not to eat of that tree and they did anyway. No one forced them. This impact has everything to do with our relationship with God and not much to do with the cosmos. The rest of the bible is about man's relationship with each other and with God. All with some success and a lot of failure until the perfect success of Jesus.

God has never supplied a complete answer to why we have to suffer. Does that mean He is morally reprehensible - No. What God is defines what is morally good. Suffering is a fact of life, but He teaches us how to deal with the suffering by the stories of the trials of His people and the life, passion, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. He tells us that He will never leave us orphans. He has experienced the suffering of this world with us and we never have to experience it alone.

I was responding to InChrist's posts that said that human actions affected the very Universe itself.

 

[Mycroft]

I was responding to InChrist's posts that said that human actions affected the very Universe itself.

The earth, and everyone and thing on it is part of the 'universe'. The universe isn't just that big thing waaaaaaay over there. It's all around you. If you drop a nuke on a place and kill everyone there, and no plants can grow there for thousands of years, that is human action affecting the universe.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The earth, and everyone and thing on it is part of the 'universe'. The universe isn't just that big thing waaaaaaay over there. It's all around you. If you drop a nuke on a place and kill everyone there, and no plants can grow there for thousands of years, that is human action affecting the universe.

I was talking about humans affecting the basic functions of the Universe, such as celestial bodies colliding with each other. InChrist was saying that human sin affected the physical Cosmos. Please go back and read.

 

[Mycroft]

I was talking about humans affecting the basic functions of the Universe, such as celestial bodies colliding with each other. InChrist was saying that human sin affected the physical Cosmos. Please go back and read.

My apologies!

There's no evidence that human beings can affect the universe in this way.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

My apologies!

There's no evidence that human beings can affect the universe in this way.

Exactly. I was trying to get him to explain how this could be and he never answered. Now he doesn't want to talk me. Lol.

 

[yokomodoful]

He created people with free will according to christians, so why punish them for exercising that will he himself gave,not very forgiving.

He created hell, therefore he is responsible for them going there,if he stopped playing hide and seek people would not doubt his existence.

He may well exist, but as long as he hides no one can be faulted for not believing, such a mighty god surely would not fail to get his message across yet he is failing.

Don't say its because we are not looking either, look high and low and there is no proof, you cannot show me anything.

Again hell is not some hot box that he created to put people in when they make a mistake. Hell is God leaving people to themselves because of what the person chooses for himself. He leaves them in their sins - the things they love. Those who love God and seeks forgiveness - He forgives them. That sounds just to me.

Maybe instead of looking for proof and looking high and low, you can look at the love you have for life, for your family. Maybe you can see God there.

As for God failing to get his message across, that is our job.

 

[buadum]

Again hell is not some hot box that he created to put people in when they make a mistake. Hell is God leaving people to themselves because of what the person chooses for himself. He leaves them in their sins - the things they love. Those who love God and seeks forgiveness - He forgives them. That sounds just to me.

Maybe instead of looking for proof and looking high and low, you can look at the love you have for life, for your family. Maybe you can see God there.

As for God failing to get his message across, that is our job.

Show me god, am I to follow some god man say exists, despite having not even a hint of proof.

Worse still despite never seeing,hearing,or anything people claim to know what god wants.

Makes no sense.