Allah talks about caste?

[FearGod]

being 'children' of God is not something we are entitled to, but it is something that God bestows on us if he chooses to. And im sure you wouldnt put limitations on how God feels about mankind.

Adam was a son of God while he was perfect. But after he sinned he lost that right. The bible even states that Adam was a son of God in the geneology:
...
[son] of E′nosh,
[son] of Seth,
[son] of Adam,
[son] of God.

If God never viewed Adam as a 'son', why would he have it recorded in the geneology of the Jews that he was? Obviously it shows that God viewed Adam as a 'son' at one time.

The christian scriptures show that jesus apostles believe that God views some as his children if they are obedient and loyal to him. EG, 1 John 3:10: “The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.” It seems from a spiritual point of view, we are viewed as Gods children when we act in harmony with Gods righteousness.

And the apostles also taught that when mankind are united with God, they can become 'children' of God:
EG, Rom. 8:19-21: “...The creation (mankind) itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

So the point is that if Adam was called a 'son' of God in his perfect condition (before he rebelled), then that is what we can attain to. And it is because that is how God views mankind, as his children.

Why he had to call us as his children,did he born us,of course not.
is our characteristics similar to him,of course not.

i can find no reason for us to be called children of god,otherwise the angels are
better than us and even sounds more rational to be called god's children and
they arent.

 

[FearGod]

Just curious, why do you think we are a better creation?

Verily, We create man in the best conformation, (95:4)


NOW, INDEED, We have conferred dignity on the children of Adam, and borne them over land and sea, and provided for them sustenance out of the good things of life, and favoured them far above most of Our creation: (17:70)

 

[A-ManESL]

But is he now necessarily better then dogs? Or have I misunderstood you, and what you were saying is that initially at the time of being born man was better but not right now among all creation?

 

[K.Venugopal]

My view is the figure of Krishna (as) was a human being and a Prophet of Allah (swt) sent to a certain nation which was given a law perfect only for a certain time period. Similarly to Jesus (as) and other Prophets of Allah (swt) later got taken to be Gods. So if Vedic Scriptures made a claim to be for all time then it would have been most interesting for me. As I have heard (if I remember correctly) that Islam is the distinct Religion which has laid a claim in the Holy Quran that it will remain till the day of judgement (end of time).

There does not seem to be any logic in Quran's claim that it is the final word of God and earlier scriptures would no longer be valid. Aren't the majority of the world still holding on to earlier scriptures or scriptures that came subsequent to the Quran? Isn't it obvious that all scriptures are talking of higher truths and the differences are only in the manner of expressing and stresses laid on certain aspects? The irony is that the Quran itself is interpreted in different ways by different schools of thought.

Methinks the claim of Quran to be the final and henceforth the only word of God is rather bombastic.

 

[Rational_Mind]

There does not seem to be any logic in Quran's claim that it is the final word of God and earlier scriptures would no longer be valid. Aren't the majority of the world still holding on to earlier scriptures or scriptures that came subsequent to the Quran? Isn't it obvious that all scriptures are talking of higher truths and the differences are only in the manner of expressing and stresses laid on certain aspects? The irony is that the Quran itself is interpreted in different ways by different schools of thought.

Methinks the claim of Quran to be the final and henceforth the only word of God is rather bombastic.

Please explain your discomfort. People can choose to follow any religion but that would not mean all ways are acceptable. The unity was to bring mankind from all nations to progress and unite at one Religion. When the law till day of judgment is revealed all previous religions among whom covenants were taken to accept new teachings should honor them. Now being the last law does not mean that Allah (swt) no longer speaks or gives revelation. It just means this law will remain till the day of judgment. There has to be a last law if there is an end date on mankind. You may have trouble understanding if you believe mankind will exist forever and progress for ever.

 

[F0uad]

There does not seem to be any logic in Quran's claim that it is the final word of God and earlier scriptures would no longer be valid. Aren't the majority of the world still holding on to earlier scriptures or scriptures that came subsequent to the Quran? Isn't it obvious that all scriptures are talking of higher truths and the differences are only in the manner of expressing and stresses laid on certain aspects? The irony is that the Quran itself is interpreted in different ways by different schools of thought.

Methinks the claim of Quran to be the final and henceforth the only word of God is rather bombastic.

What if the earlier scriptures are corrupted at the Quran answers your question then surely we have to follow one that isn't corrupted agree?

Muslims in general belief that the word of god still exit in previous scriptures but not totally so yes the Bible, Torah can and i think do contain the word of god but in general its the word of man. I never saw the Quran saying that the Quran was the only revelation or the only word of god it actually says the opposite that its a confirmation of what was revealed before.

 

[Pegg]

Why he had to call us as his children,did he born us,of course not.
is our characteristics similar to him,of course not.

i can find no reason for us to be called children of god,otherwise the angels are
better than us and even sounds more rational to be called god's children and
they arent.

the quran may not give you such information, but the bible repeats over and over that the angels are indeed sons of God.

Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them

Psalm 89:6 For who in the skies can be compared to Jehovah? Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God?

Job 38:7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause

Psalms 2:7 Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah;
He has said to me: “You are my son;
I, today, I have become your father.


The bible also says that mankind (Adam) was created in the likeness of God:
Genesis 1:26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness


It is a consistent theme in the bible that mankind are created in Gods image, and the angels are called his sons. It doesnt say that he 'gives birth' in the way a woman would, but it is in the sense that he created them and bought them to life.

 

[F0uad]

In the bible i think the children and sons of god refers to the creations of god and sometimes to a ''righteous'' person. I don't find it weird saying ''righteous people'' are spiritual sons of god, the problem only occurs when we say he is a ''physical, special, begotten son or child''.

Examples:
Galatians 3:26

1 John 3:10

 

[K.Venugopal]

are not people 'born' into the caste system? if so , how can it be based on qualities and aptitudes? And who decides that one persons qualities are better then another persons and puts one down and one up?

At one time people being born into the caste system made eminent sense in the matter of profession, employment etc. - in the days when hardly anything moved from generation to generation. In today's post industrial revolution world such a caste system cannot apply. What applied then, now and would apply in future is the principle of Varna. Varna simply says there are four types of human beings based on the preponderance in each individual of certain qualities. While these individual qualities would be a carry-forward by the individual from his previous births, yet they are open to influence by the circumstances of the current life. Hence the Varna principle, upon which caste was based, allows for great mobility. The best way to test the Varna principle is to ask whether it is not true that all societies even today require four groups (and only four) to sustain itself - the thinkers, the administrators, the wealth produces and menial workers. The caste-system based on this became vile because somewhere down the line holier-than-thou attitudes arose in some groups.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I am sorry to say this but i don't see how verse 32 or in its context 30/35 is related to a caste or a system that humans should follow. Its rather made by god, it just says some people are higher in rank so that some may do harder or smarter works. For example if someone is smarter its naturally that he or she will accomplish something better then a person who isn't smart, but this doesn't mean we have to set-up a whole system based on it i think it does it naturally and how are you going to define the castes what if someone who is physical weaker can't he be a soldier what if he is smarter then the stronger ones?

I think if you use the term ''caste'' its different then being created in higher ''status'' simply because a caste limits someone to a specific group and a status (attributes of a person) can have more freedom to exercises different ways. Any-way if we want it or not Secularist state mostly have some intended ''Castes'' systems even if people do not see the bigger picture of the system.

I accept what you say but is it not intriguing that Allah should talk about an hierarchy in societal order that resembles what Krishna spoke about - never mind how things have played out in Islam and Hinduism?

 

[Rational_Mind]

I accept what you say but is it not intriguing that Allah should talk about an hierarchy in societal order that resembles what Krishna spoke about - never mind how things have played out in Islam and Hinduism?

Could you expand on the similarities. Also I think any simple man can say society is separated in groups, so is the similarity really something significant. It would be like stating that all scriptures are similar as they point out mankind has females and males.

The similarity would be significant if the teachings on living life were similar. I do accept Hinduism to be originated from revelation. But this similarity on societal groups appears insignificant and very basic to common sense. There are other similarities among Hinduism though.

 

[A-ManESL]

There does not seem to be any logic in Quran's claim that it is the final word of God and earlier scriptures would no longer be valid.

Without sticking my nose into the meaning of the terms "final word of God" (of which there is no direct Quranic verse as far as I am aware) I would just like to say some things about earlier scriptures being invalid.

There are 3 ways of attitudes people have shown while interpreting the Quran in this regard: exclusive, inclusive and pluralist. The first attitude also considers verses that had historical and textual relevance to Muhammad's (pbuh) age in Arabia as being relevant in all times and conditions and usually takes them literally. The second attitude is inclusive of other faiths mentioned directly in the Quran such as Judaism and Christianity, but even these it will just tolerate while considering Islam to be superior. (Inclusive is often just closet exclusivist). The pluralist viewpoint is about creating space in the very meaning of the terms, "Muslim", "Islam" and in general in conceptual expressions of the Quran so that the essential differentiation of various faiths start appearing only exoteric. All three viewpoints argue on the basis of the Quran and a simple dialectic cannot in my opinion resolve their differences.

Since exclusive and inclusive viewpoints have often been expressed on this forum and you have been here for some time I am sure you would have come across them. I will now illustrate some pluralist viewpoints. This viewpoint is usually backed by the view that the term Muslim in Quranic times, and in the Quranic usage refers to a submitter to a transcendent Reality or an Ultimate Reality and not to an ethnic Muslim community. (source: The message of the Quran-Muhammad Asad)

1. Everyone who believes in Ultimate Reality and does good is guaranteed salvation: This is backed by verses 2:62, 5:69. (This point essentially is in reference to your post.)

2. Allah and other definitions of Ultimate reality are identical. This is backed by verses 29:46, 17:110.

3. Diversity of religions is part of God's plan and will continue till the world ends. See verse 5:48.

4. One must be accepting, tolerant and reverential of other religions. This is backed by Quranic verses 2:256, 18:29, 109:6, 6:52, 42:15.

5. Islam is not new but a reconfirmation of truth before, and all messengers are equal. See verses 2:285, 3:84, 4:163

In the pluralist interpretation verses such as 3:85 (which say that Islam is the superior religion) are understood in a different way. The word Islam itself means self-surrender (or surrender of negative ego) and if instead of Islam the word surrender is used then the translation then acquires a wholly different meaning, for then any believer in Ultimate Reality who is surrendering becomes in theory following Islam (in the similar way he is also following sanatan dharma). Proper historical arguments are made that this is the view with which the Quran uses the word "islam".

Regards

 

[K.Venugopal]

Could you expand on the similarities. Also I think any simple man can say society is separated in groups, so is the similarity really something significant. It would be like stating that all scriptures are similar as they point out mankind has females and males.

The similarity would be significant if the teachings on living life were similar. I do accept Hinduism to be originated from revelation. But this similarity on societal groups appears insignificant and very basic to common sense. There are other similarities among Hinduism though.

A verse in Quran like the one I quoted points to similarities in scriptures - whatever differences there are between scriptures are merely those of expressions. All scriptures point to the same truth and want man to grasp the truth. But the followers of religions tend to stress on differences of expression as if they are life and death differences. Take for example Hinduism and Islam. Both call for worship of God, though each paints seemingly different pictures of God. Both call for leading an upright life, though apparently different consequences are prescribed in both religions for not leading an upright life. However, what is seemingly or apparently different are meant for the same goal - calling upon man to aim for a higher goal and live a harmonious life.

I think the time has come for mankind to realize that it is no longer worthwhile to pit religions one against the other. All religions must be accepted as being for the good of man and adherents of all religions must look for unity rather than disunity. Religious academia must facilitate harmony rather than disharmony.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Dear A-ManESL, I have read each of the verses you have quoted and it can all be interpreted in a pluralistic manner as you indicated. (Except 18:29 - And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place. This is because disbelievers and wrongdoers appear to be synonyms in the Quran.)

Be it as it may, I look forward to the day when the thrust of Dawa would be to unite persons of all religions instead of trying to unite everyone under Islam.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

So this is nothing truly unique or any teaching or system really. It is just an identification of different classes. I cannot seem to understand how this Varna System is not but just stating the obvious. I mean people already know what class they belong and where they want to head. Moreover, we know who to go to for what purpose, we don't need a system to tell us what class a person belongs to for getting help. It can help with studying different classes and understanding society etc...

This is not a qualification system then.

You have to understand that the Varna system of classification has its origins in the Vedas, Vedas are believed to be the inspired word of Ishwar at the vary beginnings of the Human civilization.

Therefore this information was given at a time when there was no identification systems available in the Human society.

We only know of what to do today, because of this Varna system. Its become so obvious to us that we treat it as something that everyone already knows, but we tend to not give credit where its due.

The Varna system is not a commandment that must be followed, Its a guide for those who need to be guided.

 

[A-ManESL]

(Except 18:29 - And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place. This is because disbelievers and wrongdoers appear to be synonyms in the Quran.)

Dear Venugopal

There is a more generic understanding of the word belief as well. I took a look at the verse 18:29 in Arabic and the word Kafir used there means one who hides the truth. A person who does not "believe"/disbeliever is not neccessarily a Kafir. The Quran itself recognizes that it is not possible for belief to come inside a person by his own will and it differentiates between those who are Muslims or submitters (to God) and those who are believers. That is the import of verse 49:14.

The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Belief or faith is something synonymous with Knowledge of God, indeed in Sufi religious literature it is often the case that the word faith can be replaced by knowingness; it is something which comes with God's will (only God can effect a radical transformation of the heart towards Him) and a person cannot force it upon him.

Regards

 

[A-ManESL]

Could you expand on the similarities.

You may find this article helpful.

 

[Rational_Mind]

A verse in Quran like the one I quoted points to similarities in scriptures - whatever differences there are between scriptures are merely those of expressions. All scriptures point to the same truth and want man to grasp the truth. But the followers of religions tend to stress on differences of expression as if they are life and death differences. Take for example Hinduism and Islam. Both call for worship of God, though each paints seemingly different pictures of God. Both call for leading an upright life, though apparently different consequences are prescribed in both religions for not leading an upright life. However, what is seemingly or apparently different are meant for the same goal - calling upon man to aim for a higher goal and live a harmonious life.

I think the time has come for mankind to realize that it is no longer worthwhile to pit religions one against the other. All religions must be accepted as being for the good of man and adherents of all religions must look for unity rather than disunity. Religious academia must facilitate harmony rather than disharmony.

The similarity is why they are called Religions. The difference is not in just expression. There is definitely a very sharp contrast. Teachings are day and night apart in many aspect. I am just being honest. In my humble opinion this is because the changes to Religion that happened over time. They were all essentially rooted in the same beliefs that there is one God. The older the Religions are they seem to add additional Gods. There are critical differences that we must accept and also accept that there a lot of unity especially on promoting peace. This is the beauty we should focus to show the similarity in religions. Promote people to learn about other Religions so they are not ignorant and learn tolerance.

Moreover I can assure you that Islam is unique in accepting prior Religions of the world as originating from Prophets of God. This is not found in other scriptures. Quran says Prophets came to every Nation, and it says that they were all righteous people. Moreover, amount of focus the Quran has made on Religious harmony is unarguable, like the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion, and for you your faith and for me mine, etc... these are more dominant in Islam than most religious scriptures.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Dear A-ManESL, I have read each of the verses you have quoted and it can all be interpreted in a pluralistic manner as you indicated. (Except 18:29 - And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place. This is because disbelievers and wrongdoers appear to be synonyms in the Quran.)

Be it as it may, I look forward to the day when the thrust of Dawa would be to unite persons of all religions instead of trying to unite everyone under Islam.

Quran goes to promote Religious Unity and even says to that people should join in good works.

There are Muslims who spend efforts going out doing Interfaith Symposiums where each Religions discusses the beautiful aspects of their teachings. I have attended many myself. Look at the work of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat: Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad | Fifth Khalifa of Ahmadiyya Community | Current Head of Ahmadiyya Community

Here are some of the events we do in Canada:
Islam Events - Upcoming Events

Look how many of them are Interfaith and World Religions Conferences. I have personally attended several conferences and you will note that most topics are to promote Religious Harmony. Other topics are also focused on clearing the allegations raised against Islam, we have to do this as well as it is our duty. We know that when we do good works and promote unity and harmony people themselves will join us and love this teaching of Islam. They themselves will want to discover Islam.

If Muslims truly believe they are on the right path they would like to invite others to join them. We do not enforce it on others. There is also one more thing I wanted to find the verse for this, it basically points out that people should invite others to being humanitarian first before bringing them to Islam. How can a person who has lost sense of humanity and become so cruel and unjust possibly turn to Islam if they cannot first realize what they have become. They have to realize their condition first.

We also ask other Religions to invite people to God. We want everyone to be as close as possible to God. Now if any Religious person does not invite other to their faith then it seems that they do not feel that they have gotten something so beautiful that they would like to share, or they are greedy.

Would you prefer Islam tells wrongdoers that you will not be punished.
There is a clear distinction the Quran makes between people who do not become Muslims and those who are wrongdoers. Some Muslims are under the illusion that nobody but Muslims can enter heaven. The Quran has fully rejected this by the example it presented of Jewish views where their leaders would say that Heaven was exclusive for them and Jewish people will only be in Hell if ever for less than a couple of days.

I will try to find a book on this topic for you.

 

[Rational_Mind]

You have to understand that the Varna system of classification has its origins in the Vedas, Vedas are believed to be the inspired word of Ishwar at the vary beginnings of the Human civilization.

Therefore this information was given at a time when there was no identification systems available in the Human society.

We only know of what to do today, because of this Varna system. Its become so obvious to us that we treat it as something that everyone already knows, but we tend to not give credit where its due.

The Varna system is not a commandment that must be followed, Its a guide for those who need to be guided.

So you feel that classes were created because of the Varna System? Mankind would not have had class division unless the Varna System was introduced? It may make sense to you but quite honestly just class identification is not anything special. I am sure that prior Religions including those in Hinduism brought mankind the structure needed to progress. This structure is the System not simply identification. I find it odd that the most focus on the Varna System talks about identification but fails to point out the System portion which would be the essential teaching to promote economic harmony, peace, etc. They need to focus on these and teach people to help each other. To be good at heart and share your wealth. That the rich do not oppress the poor. Needs more focus here..

Today people identify this class division but to what benefit? They use it to exploit other classes and control them. So it is the teaching that I care about. There is nothing special about just identifying classes, this could turn out more detrimental in exploitations purposes. This is why I stress again that the focus should be on the teachings of equality between classes.