Allah talks about caste?

[Rational_Mind]

Not only that, but America has it's social problems as well.

I agree.

It seems we are going more off topic. America has its set of problems that are destructive to the structure of society. I am just here to understand some benefits / purpose of the Caste System as taught by scriptures. I know that the Caste System is misused as a means to discriminate, I think we can all agree on that. I am just curious to know that how it would benefit if it is applied as taught by the scriptures. I am not even sure what they teach about how to apply it etc. This is what I am trying to learn.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

What is the purpose behind assigning castes. Are there different rights for different castes or more expectations from different castes. What purpose does it serve in religion.

No one is assigned a birth based cast, Birth based as i have said earlier is a misunderstanding and misuse of the original Varna system, Varna (Vocation/Education/Deeds) is a classification system and was used in society to evaluate ones capability of completing a task.
Just like today, people need certification of their trades to be recognised as a competent provider of their services.

Hinduism is more then a religion, its a social and national system. Varna was a integral part of the system to minimise corruption and misuse of power.

There are always expectations in the Varna system, just as i expect a Doctor to know what he is doing, the same goes for the guy who cleans offices.
Its the same with Bramins, Kshatryas, Vaishyas and Shudras.

Traditionally there were no 5th Varna, or Untouchable caste.

But since its been distorted throughout the thousands of years of invasions and wars, Varna has become "Caste", Mind you there is no such word that means caste (birth based) in Sanskrit language.

 

[Rational_Mind]

No one is assigned a birth based cast, Birth based as i have said earlier is a misunderstanding and misuse of the original Varna system, Varna (Vocation/Education/Deeds) is a classification system and was used in society to evaluate ones capability of completing a task.
Just like today, people need certification of their trades to be recognised as a competent provider of their services.

Hinduism is more then a religion, its a social and national system. Varna was a integral part of the system to minimise corruption and misuse of power.

There are always expectations in the Varna system, just as i expect a Doctor to know what he is doing, the same goes for the guy who cleans offices.
Its the same with Bramins, Kshatryas, Vaishyas and Shudras.

Traditionally there were no 5th Varna, or Untouchable caste.

But since its been distorted throughout the thousands of years of invasions and wars, Varna has become "Caste", Mind you there is no such word that means caste (birth based) in Sanskrit language.

What benefit could it serve today. Also what benefit did it serve in the past. Who authorizes which caste one belongs to. Was experience and word of mouth referral not the method of ensuring qualification in the past? Was the caste system set up as a organized system before and used to ensure qualifications.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Can a mechanic learn to become a dentist? Can a dentist learn to become a mechanic? Or are there roles set for life?

Till they become dentist and mechanic respectively, don't you think you should go with their current qualifications? Asides, caste system does not say they can't acquire new skills and roles. Please read some literature on caste system. Lot of your doubts will be clarified.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

What benefit could it serve today. Also what benefit did it serve in the past. Who authorizes which caste one belongs to. Was experience and word of mouth referral not the method of ensuring qualification in the past? Was the caste system set up as a organized system before and used to ensure qualifications.

It will serve the same benefit it served in the past.

Brahmanas: Intelligent ones will be involved in educating the other classes in matters of material and spiritual sciences.
Kshatriyas: The valiant ones will be involved in providing protection to the other classes and their countries.
Vaishyas: The business minded ones will be involved in mercantile and trading businesses.
Shudras: The laborious kinds would be involved in farming etc. and in serving the other classes.

All benefit from such arrangement.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Rational_Mind;2911517]What benefit could it serve today. Also what benefit did it serve in the past.

Benefit.

If you are sick, will you go to a priest or a Doctor?, A doctor.
Because they are the once qualified in the field.

That is the benefit, its as it is today and as it was in the past.

Who authorizes which caste one belongs to.

Ill, give you a example.

If i wanted to become a warrior, I would have to fit the selection criteria of the Army.

People went to Gurukuls/schools/educational facilities to learn whatever they wanted to learn.
people had a choice to belong to a Varna, there was no birth caste.

Was experience and word of mouth referral not the method of ensuring qualification in the past?

As i have said before in my post, Varna means Vocation based on Deeds, knowledge, education and Karma.

How many word of mouth doctors do you see and trust?

How would one get experience without work placement, and an proper education?

Was the caste system set up as a organized system before and used to ensure qualifications.

Yes, It was called the Varna system.
THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS CASTE!

 

[Rational_Mind]

So this is nothing truly unique or any teaching or system really. It is just an identification of different classes. I cannot seem to understand how this Varna System is not but just stating the obvious. I mean people already know what class they belong and where they want to head. Moreover, we know who to go to for what purpose, we don't need a system to tell us what class a person belongs to for getting help. It can help with studying different classes and understanding society etc...

This is not a qualification system then.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

With due respect, I would disagree there.

Foundation of character, like that of a building is the most important part. Strong foundation means a strong and taller building. It is the basic, yet it is very important!

Caste system is at the foundation of material and spiritual progress of humanity. Depending upon the qualities of an individual, caste system allots him a particular class. Persons who are born in a particular caste have a head-start over others for getting familiar with the rules of that particular class.

There are certain rules that are to be followed in the caste system. Like, studying scriptures in the care of a Guru for initial few years, purificatory rituals, following celibacy etc. These things are missing now. Thus there is degradation of humanity.

 

[Rational_Mind]

With due respect, I would disagree there.

Foundation of character, like that of a building is the most important part. Strong foundation means a strong and taller building. It is the basic, yet it is very important!

Caste system is at the foundation of material and spiritual progress of humanity. Depending upon the qualities of an individual, caste system allots him a particular class. Persons who are born in a particular caste have a head-start over others for getting familiar with the rules of that particular class.

There are certain rules that are to be followed in the caste system. Like, studying scriptures in the care of a Guru for initial few years, purificatory rituals, following celibacy etc. These things are missing now. Thus there is degradation of humanity.

Now you are referring to it as Caste System while Satyamavejayanti has said it is actually Varna System. Could we please stick to one so I don't offend the other.

I am getting mixed opinions here. I though I was told by Satyamavejayanti that it is not something you are born into but this is what they have twisted it into today. Frankly his view made more sense but at the same time seemed to lose purpose other then identification for studying society or something.

If this is something you are born into then it is assigning another method of discriminating and providing an apparent benefit of helping define clear classes. I do not see the benefit. Someone could argue that we should put a label on peoples head with their religion written so we can identify them and they know where they belong. That way they would all know that they should study under their religious scholars...

Regarding the head-start how does that have to do anything with the actual system rather then being born into something. The system is simply a label then. You could be born into a family that does lumber business and you have a head start in there, why does it matter or help what class you belong to. You may chose to pursue something else instead under free will.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Now you are referring to it as Caste System while Satyamavejayanti has said it is actually Varna System. Could we please stick to one so I don't offend the other.

Actually, caste system and Varna System are two names of the same thing. Varna System is the more appropriate name.

I am getting mixed opinions here. I though I was told by Satyamavejayanti that it is not something you are born into but this is what they have twisted it into today. Frankly his view made more sense but at the same time seemed to lose purpose other then identification for studying society or something.

If this is something you are born into then it is assigning another method of discriminating and providing an apparent benefit of helping define clear classes. I do not see the benefit. Someone could argue that we should put a label on peoples head with their religion written so we can identify them and they know where they belong. That way they would all know that they should study under their religious scholars...

Regarding the head-start how does that have to do anything with the actual system rather then being born into something. The system is simply a label then. You could be born into a family that does lumber business and you have a head start in there, why does it matter or help what class you belong to. You may chose to pursue something else instead under free will.

The intent here was to say that people misuse caste system (by representing themselves as belonging to a particular class), on the basis of their birth in a particular class. Only benefit of being born in a particular class is that it gives you a head-start with the kind of environment which is conducive to imbibing culture of that particular class...nothing more.

Caste System or Varna System IS based on merit and not birth.

Sorry to have confused you there.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Actually, caste system and Varna System are two names of the same thing. Varna System is the more appropriate name.



The intent here was to say that people misuse caste system (by representing themselves as belonging to a particular class), on the basis of their birth in a particular class. Only benefit of being born in a particular class is that it gives you a head-start with the kind of environment which is conducive to imbibing culture of that particular class...nothing more.

Caste System or Varna System IS based on merit and not birth.

Sorry to have confused you there.

Could you show me some verses of the scripture explaining it?
Also, technically isn't everyone under a Varna System. It is just more divided by professions which you could categorize into larger groups under Varna System. The System itself is just there so it is not really pertaining to religion then. Human Beings naturally make societal groups like society of Engineers and society of Doctors... So what involvement does Religion have, does it promote it?

 

[K.Venugopal]

Often the shock against caste system gets greater when it is mentioned that Krishna is the author of the system. However, Krishna never claimed authorship of the caste system. He claimed authorship of Varna, which is a four-fold division of mankind based on inherent tendencies of individuals and Varna is not something that is carried forward from generation to generation. Caste system is something else and is called Jati in Hindu sociology. It is based on profession (the means of livelihood) of a person. In the old days the tendency to inherit the family profession was natural because that sort of gave an in-built security and mastery over the profession and more important, families and extended families would have attained fame in the profession and attracted employment easily. Such extended families eventually came to be called Jatis based on their profession and that kind of solidified in the ages when nothing changed and the same old technology and knowledge were passed on generation after generation. With the industrial revolution the world started moving at a fast pace and need of particular professions kept changing even within one generation. So today Jati or caste is not relevant as far as inheriting a profession goes. Caste plays a role among Hindus today only in matters pertaining to marriage and the obnoxious world of Indian politics.

When I stumbled upon the Quranic verse quoted in the OP I wondered whether Allah has not claimed authorship of a system similar to caste system. Since Allah spoke specifically about professions, I thought usage of the word caste in reference to the Quranic verse is apt, though in Islamic history professional categorisations never turned out to be an inherited phenomenon as it turned out in Hinduism. Nevertheless, I think the Quranic verse is of academic interest when discussing the Hindu caste system.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Could you show me some verses of the scripture explaining it?

In the Bhagvad Gita, Supreme Lord Krishna says:

cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ
guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
tasya kartāram api māḿ
viddhy akartāram avyayam​

According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable. [B.G. 4.13]

Also, technically isn't everyone under a Varna System. It is just more divided by professions which you could categorize into larger groups under Varna System. The System itself is just there so it is not really pertaining to religion then. Human Beings naturally make societal groups like society of Engineers and society of Doctors... So what involvement does Religion have, does it promote it?

I will confuse you again now!

Ashrama system is a sub-set of the Chaturya Varnayam (class system, which is sometimes referred to as caste system). There are 4 Varnas and there are 4 Ashramas.

Originally, member of each Varna was supposed to live their life in according to the four Ashramas. That is where religion fits in.

For instance, a person is determined to be a Brahmana on the basis of his merit.

Once a Brahmana, he is supposed to live his life in 4 Ashramas of 25 years each, assuming he has a life span of a 100 years;

Ist Ashrama would be Bramhacharya: 25 years: This is when the person studies material and spiritual sciences under a Bonafide Guru and observes celibacy.

2nd Ashrama would be Grahastha: 25 years: This is when the individual would enter into a house-holder life allowing him regulated sense-gratification.

3rd Ashrama would be Vanaprastha: 25 years: Now the person would lead a detached life, withdrawing from the material possessions.

4th Ashrama would be Sanyasa: 25 years: Now the person would renounce all - family, possessions....everything and shall live totally depending on Supreme Lord for his sustenance and maintainance.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am getting mixed opinions here.

Its a tad unrealistic to ask a question about a religion with 900 million adherents,and expect everyone to answer the same way with no contradictions. Of course you will get mixed opinions.

 

[A-ManESL]

Just to chip in, I wrote a post on the virtues of the caste system some time back. The caste system had its plus points in a certain age but it is out of context today.

From the Islamic perspective, there is no caste system. The approach in the verse cited is that God is all-powerful and man too small to be of any consequence. If a person has rank and power that has been bestowed by God, and not by his self efforts (and similarly careers and occupations). The basic idea is that the negative ego of a person should not be increased in any way. Although not mentioned in the verse it is expected that power/wealth must be treated as a trust given by God and should be expended in his way.

 

[Rational_Mind]

I think the Varna System is not really a religious structure then. Unless there are some regulations on the different classes ensuring equality then I do not see a purpose in just stating the classes. The key aspect would be to ensure societal harmony by regulating functions across classes to ensure neither suppress the other. I don't seem to see that mentioned, I guess this is not relavent today so not well written on.

 

[nameless]

What is the purpose behind assigning castes.

stable society (according to some) ...

Originally Posted from a youtube video
In Ancient India two great Rishi's, one was "Rishi Bhrigu" and other was "Rishi Bhardwaj", met to discuss how to structure a stable society. Then "Rishi Brigu" said there are four sources of power in a society and we must ensure that nobody has more than one of that. The four sources are 1. Knowledge, 2. Weapons, 3. Wealth, 4. Land. These should not be in one hand, not even two should be in one hand. So those who has knowledge will not have wealth, will not have weapons and will not have lands. Those who will have weapons will rule the country but they will not make policy. They need to go to people having knowledge to seek their permission and advice. Those who are having wealth, their social status will be decided by the how much philanthropy they do not by their wealth. Those who has lands have to produce for the society. In fact none of these four category or "varna" was based on by birth.
source : youtube.com/watch?v=Cn5AfhxRGns

another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8IDme2TnM8

 

[K.Venugopal]

Just to chip in, I wrote a post on the virtues of the caste system some time back. The caste system had its plus points in a certain age but it is out of context today.

From the Islamic perspective, there is no caste system. The approach in the verse cited is that God is all-powerful and man too small to be of any consequence. If a person has rank and power that has been bestowed by God, and not by his self efforts (and similarly careers and occupations). The basic idea is that the negative ego of a person should not be increased in any way. Although not mentioned in the verse it is expected that power/wealth must be treated as a trust given by God and should be expended in his way.

I had missed your fabulously insightful article "The virtues of caste system" earlier. I read it now and it is a most comprehensive write-up written in just a few lines. Congratulations!

The Quran verse I quoted came as a surprise to me. The hierarchical division that Allah spoke of seems to echo the caste system of Hinduism. Why then it is said there is no caste system in Islam is that Islamic society did not degenerate in the matter of pursuing employment because the "holier-than-thou" attitude did not creep in among the Muslims, which it unfortunately did in Hinduism and therefore caste eventually came to be a reprehensible idea to Hindus themselves. Maybe it happened in Hinduism and did not happen in Islam because Hinduism has been around far longer than Islam. And also probably because the idea of Advaita, which would have ensured equality, did not percolate at a mass level practically and not just subtly among Hindus. In Islam the practical sense of equality was got right from the beginning because of a single mode of common worship.

Therefore it seems right, backed by the said Quran verse, to say that caste exists in Islam and in all mankind but Muslims deny it and in denying it what they are actually denying is that caste as it turned out among Hindus does not exist in Islam. Such a denial is correct.

 

[F0uad]

I find the following Quranic verse strikingly similar to the verse in Bhagwad Gita. Were Allah and Krishna claiming credit for the same thing?

"It is we who divide among them their livelihood in the life of this world, and We exalt some of them above others in rank, so that some of them may command work from the others." (Qur'an, 43:32).

"The fourfold caste has been created by Me according to the differentiation of Guna (attributes) and Karma." (Bhagavad Gita, Ch. 18, V.41).

I am sorry to say this but i don't see how verse 32 or in its context 30/35 is related to a caste or a system that humans should follow. Its rather made by god, it just says some people are higher in rank so that some may do harder or smarter works. For example if someone is smarter its naturally that he or she will accomplish something better then a person who isn't smart, but this doesn't mean we have to set-up a whole system based on it i think it does it naturally and how are you going to define the castes what if someone who is physical weaker can't he be a soldier what if he is smarter then the stronger ones?

I think if you use the term ''caste'' its different then being created in higher ''status'' simply because a caste limits someone to a specific group and a status (attributes of a person) can have more freedom to exercises different ways. Any-way if we want it or not Secularist state mostly have some intended ''Castes'' systems even if people do not see the bigger picture of the system.

 

[Rational_Mind]

I had missed your fabulously insightful article "The virtues of caste system" earlier. I read it now and it is a most comprehensive write-up written in just a few lines. Congratulations!

The Quran verse I quoted came as a surprise to me. The hierarchical division that Allah spoke of seems to echo the caste system of Hinduism. Why then it is said there is no caste system in Islam is that Islamic society did not degenerate in the matter of pursuing employment because the "holier-than-thou" attitude did not creep in among the Muslims, which it unfortunately did in Hinduism and therefore caste eventually came to be a reprehensible idea to Hindus themselves. Maybe it happened in Hinduism and did not happen in Islam because Hinduism has been around far longer than Islam. And also probably because the idea of Advaita, which would have ensured equality, did not percolate at a mass level practically and not just subtly among Hindus. In Islam the practical sense of equality was got right from the beginning because of a single mode of common worship.

Therefore it seems right, backed by the said Quran verse, to say that caste exists in Islam and in all mankind but Muslims deny it and in denying it what they are actually denying is that caste as it turned out among Hindus does not exist in Islam. Such a denial is correct.

I think you should notice that nobody in this forum was able to explain how it is really a Varma "System" through the scripture. It is merely identification. It seems pointless in the world today even if it is taken to be a system.