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am i going to hell

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
aka[DoW];3539034 said:
No offence but I was kind of hoped that an actual Buddahist would answer me. I just want to be clear on their belief. Please understand Im not trying to devalue your personal belief.... yet:p

Dude, I am a Buddhist. Would you like me to cite suttas regarding your questions? (Or even better, you can ask in the Buddhism DIR)
 

aka[DoW]

Member
Dude, I am a Buddhist. Would you like me to cite suttas regarding your questions? (Or even better, you can ask in the Buddhism DIR)

Apologies.. your answers were.. well they seemed very contradictory on several levels. Sounded more like you were into some new age type of belief to be honest. Again, my apologies.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
aka[DoW];3539056 said:
Apologies.. your answers were.. well they seemed very contradictory on several levels. Sounded more like you were into some new age type of belief to be honest. Again, my apologies.
How were they contradictory?
 

aka[DoW]

Member
This is really not conjecturable atm, with the information we have.

Not atonement. Karma is the habitual patterns in your mind that may or may not continue in future causal action, or may not. There is too much chaos in the complexity of interacting causal factors for any degree of certainty.

Nibbana can be experienced in the here and now. This life or afterlife is not really relevant to nibbana.

So your telling me that this universal energy may or may not be an entity... that you may or may not pay for sin.. that you may or may not reincarnate, and that nibbana is mearly a state of mind that you may or may not achieve. Sounds like when Socrates said "The only true wisdom comes from knowing that we know nothing." Yet I beg to differ... There are many things that are known, but those are only a small fraction of the things that can be known.
 

buadum

Member
aka[DoW];3539064 said:
So your telling me that this universal energy may or may not be an entity... that you may or may not pay for sin.. that you may or may not reincarnate, and that nibbana is mearly a state of mind that you may or may not achieve. Sounds like when Socrates said "The only true wisdom comes from knowing that we know nothing." Yet I beg to differ... There are many things that are known, but those are only a small fraction of the things that can be known.

And the things that cannot be proven are not proven because they are beyond our senses.

Therefore to speak of their existence in absolutes is wrong, for eg god may exist, but we cannot say to anyone with certainty he does or does not.

Its a matter of opinion until he is seen or not seen when we pass.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
aka[DoW];3539064 said:
So your telling me that this universal energy may or may not be an entity... that you may or may not pay for sin.. that you may or may not reincarnate, and that nibbana is mearly a state of mind that you may or may not achieve. Sounds like when Socrates said "The only true wisdom comes from knowing that we know nothing." Yet I beg to differ... There are many things that are known, but those are only a small fraction of the things that can be known.
The ideas of "Cosmic Consciousness" and "atonement" are not really necessary or of primary relevance to Buddhism, if that is what you are after.
 

Ablaze

Buddham Saranam Gacchami
aka[DoW];3537868 said:
As I understand Buddahism, you attribute no self awareness to the universe (that which I call God) and when you die, you can either be reincarnated here on Earth again to atone for sins in past lives or progress to nirvana if you are righteous enough.. is this correct?

Canonical Buddhism rejects the notion of a self-aware, Creator God (issara-nimmana-vada), labeling it a form of wrong view (miccha ditthi). This is on account of the eternalistic, deterministic tendencies of theism, which do not accord with reality as understood in Buddhism. Not only is a Creator God rejected, but godly beings are entirely stripped of any capacity to control a being's fate, whether by providing salvation or offering final judgement.

Upon death, it is commonly believed by Buddhists that post-mortem rebirth occurs, which must be distinguished from reincarnation. The notion of reincarnation presumes the existence of an entity (often a soul, or atman) that may repeatedly incarnate. This very idea is rejected in Buddhism through the Buddha's teachings on anatta, the soul-less, impersonal, non-self characteristic common to all phenomena, conditioned and unconditioned alike. To be overly concerned about one's destiny after death is to be disconnected from our present reality.

The idea of sins from past lives does not align well with the Buddhist concept of karma. Often, people confuse karma for a deterministic system of cosmic judgment. This is not so. Based on the Buddha's clear description of karma in the Nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63), karma refers to intention, or actions of a volitional nature. The Buddha taught that beings are owners of their karma and heirs of their karma in the Upajjhatthana Sutta (AN 5.54), meaning one's volitional actions (karma) plant the seeds of intention and yield fruits (vipaka) to be experienced further along in the path. At the same time, in the Acintita Sutta (AN 4.77), the Buddha proclaims that the precise workings of the results of karma are unconjecturable, leading to madness and vexation for whomever obsesses over them. Given this information, it should be clear that karma and determinism should not be confused.

Generally, in the cosmological scheme of rebirth, an unenlightened being may take birth in any of the five (sometimes six) realms, not to "atone to past sins," but in accordance with their karma, which is an impersonal system of action and reaction (often conceived of as cause and effect) within the moral sphere. Thus, countless beings take birth in the realms of samsara, the cycle of suffering (dukkha).

Lastly, nirvana is conceived of as the extinguishing, blowing out, or cooling of the flames of worldly existence. Although this correlates with righteousness in the sense that right (samma) practice leads to liberation from suffering, nirvana is not a reward or place to which a being "goes." It is likewise unconjecturable, ultimately representing the complete eradication of the conditions for the arising of suffering.
 

Ablaze

Buddham Saranam Gacchami
aka[DoW];3539064 said:
So your telling me that this universal energy may or may not be an entity... that you may or may not pay for sin.. that you may or may not reincarnate, and that nibbana is mearly a state of mind that you may or may not achieve. Sounds like when Socrates said "The only true wisdom comes from knowing that we know nothing." Yet I beg to differ... There are many things that are known, but those are only a small fraction of the things that can be known.

Or when the Buddha taught about the Simsapa leaves in the Samyutta Nikaya:

Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the simsapa[1] forest. Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?"

"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.

Simsapa Sutta (SN 56.31)

Some questions are simply irrelevant. If they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding, then they must be let go.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Dreams are not reality, you have to Awaken to truly realize this.

Or perhaps it's those who have awakened who understand that dreams are a real part of reality, and a glimpse of the reality that awaits upon death.

Have you ever had a lucid dream before?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Or perhaps it's those who have awakened who understand that dreams are a real part of reality, and a glimpse of the reality that awaits upon death.

Have you ever had a lucid dream before?

Being awakened is seeing things for what they really are, illusions.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Or perhaps it's those who have awakened who understand that dreams are a real part of reality, and a glimpse of the reality that awaits upon death.

Have you ever had a lucid dream before?

Lucid dream or whatever dream is just a dream, the Awakening is the reality of what IS, the dream is over.
 

aka[DoW]

Member
Canonical Buddhism rejects the notion of a self-aware, Creator God (issara-nimmana-vada), labeling it a form of wrong view (miccha ditthi). This is on account of the eternalistic, deterministic tendencies of theism, which do not accord with reality as understood in Buddhism. Not only is a Creator God rejected, but godly beings are entirely stripped of any capacity to control a being's fate, whether by providing salvation or offering final judgement.

Upon death, it is commonly believed by Buddhists that post-mortem rebirth occurs, which must be distinguished from reincarnation. The notion of reincarnation presumes the existence of an entity (often a soul, or atman) that may repeatedly incarnate. This very idea is rejected in Buddhism through the Buddha's teachings on anatta, the soul-less, impersonal, non-self characteristic common to all phenomena, conditioned and unconditioned alike. To be overly concerned about one's destiny after death is to be disconnected from our present reality.

The idea of sins from past lives does not align well with the Buddhist concept of karma. Often, people confuse karma for a deterministic system of cosmic judgment. This is not so. Based on the Buddha's clear description of karma in the karma refers to intention, or actions of a volitional nature. The Buddha taught that beings are owners of their karma and heirs of their karma in the meaning one's volitional actions (karma) plant the seeds of intention and yield fruits (vipaka) to be experienced further along in the path. At the same time, in the , the Buddha proclaims that the precise workings of the results of karma are unconjecturable, leading to madness and vexation for whomever obsesses over them. Given this information, it should be clear that karma and determinism should not be confused.

Generally, in the cosmological scheme of rebirth, an unenlightened being may take birth in any of the five (sometimes six) realms, not to "atone to past sins," but in accordance with their karma, which is an impersonal system of action and reaction (often conceived of as cause and effect) within the moral sphere. Thus, countless beings take birth in the realms of samsara, the cycle of suffering (dukkha).

Lastly, nirvana is conceived of as the extinguishing, blowing out, or cooling of the flames of worldly existence. Although this correlates with righteousness in the sense that right (samma) practice leads to liberation from suffering, nirvana is not a reward or place to which a being "goes." It is likewise unconjecturable, ultimately representing the complete eradication of the conditions for the arising of suffering.
Thanks for the detailed accounting of your belief. It was both informative and articulate. Best answer Ive seen yet.
So rather than a Heaven, and hell, (and purgetory for Catholics), you believe that there are six ascending, or decending realms where one can be reborn to, depending on their works in this life.. is that correct?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
aka[DoW];3540444 said:
Thanks for the detailed accounting of your belief. It was both informative and articulate. Best answer Ive seen yet.
So rather than a Heaven, and hell, (and purgetory for Catholics), you believe that there are six ascending, or decending realms where one can be reborn to, depending on their works in this life.. is that correct?
It's not works. It's your intentions--the state of your mind. See the Penetrative Sutta Ablaze posted earlier, saying karma is intention.

The Six Realms -- Buddhist Six Realms of Existence and Samsara

opening line from link:

The Six Realms are an allegorical description of conditioned existence, or samsara, into which beings are reborn. The nature of one's existence is determined by karma. Some realms seem more pleasant than others -- heaven sounds preferable to hell -- but all are dukkha, meaning they are temporary and imperfect.​
 

aka[DoW]

Member
It's not works. It's your intentions--the state of your mind. See the Ablaze posted earlier, saying karma is intention.


opening line from link:
The Six Realms are an allegorical description of conditioned existence, or samsara, into which beings are reborn. The nature of one's existence is determined by karma. Some realms seem more pleasant than others -- heaven sounds preferable to hell -- but all are dukkha, meaning they are temporary and imperfect.
Fair enough about the intent of works... In Christianity if you sin, but didnt intend to, your covered. If you sin with the intent to do evil, you invite the wicked one (satan) into your life to further fowl things up for you in the attempt to make you doubt .. although you can repent and attone to the person or people that you have wronged and again drive the wickeness from your life. It seems that this concept on the most basic level is prevelant in both our beliefs.

On the other point about the six realms, I only have to say that Im happy to be a Christian in that I can accept the sacrifice of the Christ on our behalf so that I will no longer have to deal with multiple lives other than this one and the next one that will be. The Father, like any good Father doesnt want His children to suffer, and we have been given a way out of such things.

So to answer the threads author, yes there is a possibilty that you could go to hell and heres why. The Father is God; he is a feely giving and just God. He would not be "just or loving" if he stole you at the moment of your death and forced you to live in His kingdom to be in His presence for eternity now would He? He wants all of us to come to Him, but He will not force Himself upon us. So if someone doesnt want to be with Him, when that someone dies, they get exactly what they wish.. a place that is devoid of His presence.. a place where the words "Thou shalt not.." are never spoken, and a place where the prisoners run the prison because there are no laws. I dont wish this for anyone, and neither does He.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
aka[DoW];3541834 said:
Fair enough about the intent of works... In Christianity if you sin, but didnt intend to, your covered. If you sin with the intent to do evil, you invite the wicked one (satan) into your life to further fowl things up for you in the attempt to make you doubt .. although you can repent and attone to the person or people that you have wronged and again drive the wickeness from your life. It seems that this concept on the most basic level is prevelant in both our beliefs.

On the other point about the six realms, I only have to say that Im happy to be a Christian in that I can accept the sacrifice of the Christ on our behalf so that I will no longer have to deal with multiple lives other than this one and the next one that will be. The Father, like any good Father doesnt want His children to suffer, and we have been given a way out of such things.

So to answer the threads author, yes there is a possibilty that you could go to hell and heres why. The Father is God; he is a feely giving and just God. He would not be "just or loving" if he stole you at the moment of your death and forced you to live in His kingdom to be in His presence for eternity now would He? He wants all of us to come to Him, but He will not force Himself upon us. So if someone doesnt want to be with Him, when that someone dies, they get exactly what they wish.. a place that is devoid of His presence.. a place where the words "Thou shalt not.." are never spoken, and a place where the prisoners run the prison because there are no laws. I dont wish this for anyone, and neither does He.

The assumption is though is that all the prisoners are bad. Do you believe this world is full of mostly bad people?
 
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