Am I saved if I have a different biblical interpretation of the oneness of God?

[danieldemol]

Andrew Reil wrote,"they (other Christians) believe Joseph Smith was an evil deceiver"

My understanding is that Paul and Joseph Smith both are at the same level*, they both claim that they had been appointed apostle/prophet/messenger by Jesus not by G-d/Jehovah, nevertheless they both had the same destiny as mentioned in Deuteronomy of false prophets:
Deuteronomy 18:20
20 But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9982/jewish/Chapter-18.htm
Right?

Regards
_______________
*"If Paul was a prophet, Joseph Smith was also a prophet. The evidences that support Paul’s prophetic calling also support that of Joseph Smith."
Parallel Prophets: Paul and Joseph Smith

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad shared that fate as well

 

[paarsurrey]

I want to understand why Christians do not think I'm saved. I don't want to argue with them. I genuinely want to understand their rationale.

Here's why it's a question: I recognize that there are many debates among Christians on interpretations of the Bible, yet my understanding is that a Baptist will still admit that a Presbyterian is saved because he or she has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. But they will not accept that I, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who accepts Jesus as my personal Savior, is saved. Why?

I have tried to ask this question many times, and except for once with a person I was able to convince that I do not want to argue, it has always quickly turned into why they believe Joseph Smith was an evil deceiver, not answering my question.

The one person who did answer me explained that because I do not believe in the Trinity, that even though I say the name "Jesus Christ", that I do not believe in the REAL Jesus Christ. That what I believe is a fictional idea that is not real, and that I have merely attributed the name "Jesus Christ" to that fictional idea. The REAL Jesus Christ that I should be accepting as my Savior is in the Trinity.

My question therefore is, if I interpret John 17:21 that "one" in the way that the followers of Jesus can be aligned perfectly with Him, the same way that Jesus Christ is already perfectly aligned with His Father, than does that interpretation nullify me?

Why do other disagreements over scriptural interpretation not nullify other Christian's beliefs?

And if a person who is initially unfamiliar with Christianity, then learns about it from a Christian missionary, and confesses Jesus, and then dies from an accident, and still harbors mistaken beliefs about God because he has not yet been taught fully by the missionaries, is he saved?

Your illumination on the topic would be appreciated.

Andrew Reil wrote,"they (other Christians) believe Joseph Smith was an evil deceiver"

My understanding is that Paul and Joseph Smith both are at the same level*, they both claim that they had been appointed apostle/prophet/messenger by Jesus not by G-d/Jehovah, nevertheless they both had the same destiny as mentioned in Deuteronomy of false prophets:
Deuteronomy 18:20
20 But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9982/jewish/Chapter-18.htm
Deuteronomy 13:1–5
"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you".
Deuteronomy 13 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre
It is for this that the Jews tried to put innocent Jesus to put him on the Cross for a cursed killing by death on the Cross, but they could not succeed. But Paul and Joseph Smith both were killed, I understand.
Right?

Regards
_______________
*"If Paul was a prophet, Joseph Smith was also a prophet. The evidences that support Paul’s prophetic calling also support that of Joseph Smith."
Parallel Prophets: Paul and Joseph Smith

 

[paarsurrey]

Perhaps then it boils down to “who” you believe, rather than just “what” you believe? It also depends on where a person has come from in their spiritual journey....in Jesus’ day, he preached to his fellow Jews, who were already in a dedicated relationship with God. But he had issues with the teachings of the Pharisees, saying that they “taught the commands of men as doctrine”. (Matthew 15:7-9) so even though they had God’s word, they did not teach it correctly, but added many detailed explanations to it that were not necessary and that warped what God had originally said.
If the person or organization who teaches us has the wrong message to convey, shouldn’t we be informed about that?

As Paul said....
11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out?”

What did that mean back then to those first Christians?

If there is “the same Lord over all” then we should get to know him and the one whom he sent. (John 17:3)



Since the Bible does not teach that Jesus is part of a triune godhead, it is my belief that steering clear of that belief is a good thing. Jesus never said he was God...not once. To put another god in place of the Father is a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)



I guess that people in Christendom all believe the same set of core beliefs....and if you do not accept that core, then you cannot be acceptable to them as a Christian. But Jesus’ words at the time of the judgment are sobering because “many” are going to suffer complete rejection. It will shock them.

Matthew 7:21-23...
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’“

So just acknowledging Jesus as your “Lord”, unless you are “doing the will of the Father” it means very little. When we are taught scripture and the value of it, we cannot afford to get things wrong. If God is the author of scripture, then there will be no contradiction or deviation from what is written in his word. There was to be no other scripture....no additions to what was written....and no other prophets because Jesus was the last prophet.

From creation to the final test of Revelation, all scripture must harmonize because it is inspired by the same author.



Since Jesus promised to resurrect both the righteous and the unrighteousness, calling them from the same place (their tombs. John 5:28-29) we can be sure that God’s original purpose for this earth and all the life he established here will finally be at realized (Isaiah 55:11)....all will be at peace with the Creator, reconciled through the sacrifice of Christ, his obedient son.

As far as “salvation” is concerned, well that is for Jesus to judge. From his words in Matthew 7:21-23, it is apparent that “many” will not make the cut, despite all the things they said that they had done “in his name”.

So from my perspective, there can only be one truth, and Jesus said that no one can come to him without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:44, 65) So as one who reads hearts, it is up to God to reveal his truth to whomever he wishes. But as history demonstrates, the God of the Bible is a God of order and organization. He has always had one people who were taught one truth (1 Corinthians 1:10) and they were gathered together for worship as one body of believers. (Hebrews 10:24-25) No one was allowed to bring in any beliefs from outside of what was provided by God in his word....

So that is how I see the situation.....we have to make the choice to worship the true God as he says he must be worshipped, not deviating to the right or to the left.....(Isaiah 30:21)

Deeje wrote, "in Jesus’ day, he preached to his fellow Jews, who were already in a dedicated relationship with God. But he had issues with the teachings of the Pharisees, saying that they “taught the commands of men as doctrine”. (Matthew 15:7-9) so even though they had God’s word, they did not teach it correctly, but added many detailed explanations to it that were not necessary and that warped what God had originally said.
If the person or organization who teaches us has the wrong message to convey, shouldn’t we be informed about that?"

I get that Jews grossly violated the "Eternal Covenant" and , therefore, cut them off the blessings attached with it. They need to correct themselves to come within it again, please. Right?

Pauline-Christians (be they Catholics, Protestant, JWs and or LDS etc.), I figure, have also grossly violated the "Eternal Covenant" and hence cut them off the blessings attached with it. They also need to correct themselves to come within it again, please. Right?
I understand, Jesus'-Christians who migrated out of Judea with Jesus and or joined him later or stayed back as per Jesus instructions are an exception to it, please. Peace be on them all for obeying G-d with their hearts and souls.
Right?

Regards
____________
~3:81
33:7
2:124
~!Hebrew Bible (Genesis 17:10–14)
~In Judaism, the Tanakh and Talmudic texts as well as writings of Gaonim and Rishonim indicate that prostration was very common among Jewish communities until some point during the Middle Ages.
Prostration - Wikipedia
~Even in Israel, More and More Parents Choose Not to Circumcise Their Sons
Even in Israel, more and more parents choose not to circumcise their sons
~The apostle Paul, however, believed that faith in Jesus was the only requirement for salvation. Paul wrote that Jews who believed in Christ could go on circumcising their children, but he urged gentiles not to circumcise themselves or their sons, because trying to mimic the Jews represented a lack of faith in Christ’s ability to save them.
Why Don’t Christians Have To Get Circumcised?
~Over 80%[edit]
Turkey, 98.6%.[6]
More than 80%[edit]
Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Bangladesh,[6] Bahrain, Brunei, Iran, Iraq, Israel,[40] Pakistan,[6] Jordan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Oman, Palestine, the Philippines,[16] Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tajikistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.[13]
to over 90% in Israel and many Muslim-majority countries.[2][5][6]
Prevalence of circumcision - Wikipedia

 

[Bree]

I want to understand why Christians do not think I'm saved. I don't want to argue with them. I genuinely want to understand their rationale.

Here's why it's a question: I recognize that there are many debates among Christians on interpretations of the Bible, yet my understanding is that a Baptist will still admit that a Presbyterian is saved because he or she has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. But they will not accept that I, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who accepts Jesus as my personal Savior, is saved. Why?

I have tried to ask this question many times, and except for once with a person I was able to convince that I do not want to argue, it has always quickly turned into why they believe Joseph Smith was an evil deceiver, not answering my question.

The one person who did answer me explained that because I do not believe in the Trinity, that even though I say the name "Jesus Christ", that I do not believe in the REAL Jesus Christ. That what I believe is a fictional idea that is not real, and that I have merely attributed the name "Jesus Christ" to that fictional idea. The REAL Jesus Christ that I should be accepting as my Savior is in the Trinity.

My question therefore is, if I interpret John 17:21 that "one" in the way that the followers of Jesus can be aligned perfectly with Him, the same way that Jesus Christ is already perfectly aligned with His Father, than does that interpretation nullify me?

Why do other disagreements over scriptural interpretation not nullify other Christian's beliefs?

And if a person who is initially unfamiliar with Christianity, then learns about it from a Christian missionary, and confesses Jesus, and then dies from an accident, and still harbors mistaken beliefs about God because he has not yet been taught fully by the missionaries, is he saved?

Your illumination on the topic would be appreciated.

Coming from a JW point of view, none of us can assume to be saved just because we say we accept Jesus as our personal savior. We are warned not to 'assume' salvation at 1Cor 10:12

Salvation comes through faith ultimately, but it also comes thru accurate knowledge of Christ and living in harmony with that knowledge. A person who uses a source of information outside of the Bible runs the risk of putting faith in inaccurate information. So, the question we should all ask ourselves is this; is our source of information about Jesus reliable? Does it come from the people who were with Jesus and who Jesus authorised to represent him?

The bible is such a source as it was written by people with first hand knowledge and with authorisation so we can trust the knowledge they provide. Do your beliefs marry up with the teachings of those writers?

 

[Andrew Reil]

Hello,

It's a fair question to ask. However, can I first ask you why you chose to be part of the Latter-Day Saints specifically?

From reading what you wrote, you seem to be more liberally minded than someone who I would expect to identify with that denomination. Did the simple term "Christian" not feel right in comparison? Just interested

Peace

I do believe I am Christian. I chose to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because I feel close to the Spirit there.

I would use the simple term "Christian" except that is precisely the question I am probing. I want to understand other Christians and their rationale about believing I am not Christian.

 

[Andrew Reil]

what would you be saved from ? do you know?

Yes: separation from God (spiritual death) and separation from my body (physical death).

 

[cataway]

Yes: separation from God (spiritual death) and separation from my body (physical death).

do you consider your self saved ?

 

[Andrew Reil]

Because Mormon theology about God places them far outside of orthodox Christianity. It's hard to say they're the same religion with all the huge differences between traditional Christianity and Mormonism.

That said, you should expect such a reaction. After all, the LDS church teaches that all other Christian groups are apostate and, presumably, on the road to damnation. Either way, if you truly believe your faith is true, it shouldn't bother you so much what others say.

Thank-you for your comment. I think I'm getting closer to my answer, but I'd like to get into the weeds a bit to understand it more accurately.

The question really is: what defines a "Christian"?

I think what you're saying is that it's more than just accepting Christ as my personal Saviour, and that He is Lord, and the Son of God, and that I worship Him, and try to follow His teachings.

I think Christians from other churches than mine believes that a "Christian" must also be accepting theology, or scriptural interpretation, that has defined the trinity, and beliefs that there is no more prophets or new scripture.

If so, why? Shouldn't the label "Christian" simply focus on Jesus Christ?

About the other Christian churches: My understanding about what my church teaches is that about 2000 years ago many Christians apostatized, and that the Christian churches today are doing the best they can with what they've been able to keep from what the original church left behind. We welcome them to join us and bring all the truth you have, and let us add to it.

We don't believe the other Christian churches are going to hell. My understanding of why my church teaches is that in the resurrection all people will come to a full knowledge (i.e. not faith or belief) that Christ is Lord. At that point they can choose to follow Him or not. Those who do, which I believe all Christians will, go to heaven.

I am not bothered by what others say. I do want to understand others beliefs, which is why I joined this forum.

Thank-you again for your contribution.

 

[Andrew Reil]

do you consider your self saved ?

My understanding of what my church teaches is that there is a point where the Lord will make your "calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10), until that time I will eventually be saved if I keep following Jesus Christ. I will eventually reach my "calling and election". Jesus Christ is the one who saves me, and asks that I accept and follow Him.

 

[Andrew Reil]

I did read all of your post and I don't want to argue with Christians or you either, but it may help a tiny bit if I offer the info that a considerable quantity of Christian churches, denominations and Creeds don't believe that 'all the other Christian Churches' are saved either!

Only they are saved ...... so if you want to discuss that you will need to get in the first of many many queues leading to many different churches to talk about this.

Me? I'm toast, Andrew, frazzled toast...... because I'm a Deist, so if any of you are right I've had it. But then, I think everybody has had it (their life) as well.

When you write "Only they are saved" is that just in jest? Because my understanding is that a Baptist would still believe an Evangelical is saved, but may have a slightly "wrong" interpretation of the scriptures.

Or do you actually mean that some Christian churches believe that Christians form another church is not saved because of differences in theology?

I YouTubed what a Deist is, let me know if I understand it properly: A Deist is someone who believes that there is a God, but that God is not involved in our lives. Is that correct?

 

[Andrew Reil]

The simple answer is that the Christian denominations you mention generally agree about the nature of God the Father and Jesus whereas Mormon theology is completely contradictory about the godhead.

It’s like cookies. The Christian denominations are all making chocolate chip cookies. Some use butter. Some use shortening. The ratios might be somewhat different. Some use big chocolate chunks while others use small chips, but at the end of the day they all are make something recognizable as a chocolate chip cookie.

Mormons, on the other hand, make oatmeal raisin cookies but want to call them chocolate chip cookies. They are both cookies. They have similarities. But an oatmeal raisin cookie will never be a chocolate chip cookie.

Thank-you for the excellent analogy.

To extend your analogy, it's like "Cookie" is "Christian" and ingredients like chocolate chips is like "trinity" or "there is no more prophets, the Bible is the end of revelation".

Because John 17:21 can be interpreted to be "Christian" but not necessarily "trinitarian". I agree that I am not a trinitarian. But I don't see how I am not a "Christian" since I believe that Christ is Lord, I worship Him, I believe He died for my sins, I accept Him as my Savior, I follow His teaching in the Bible.

 

[Andrew Reil]

Andrew Reil said-" I want to understand why Christians do not think I'm saved."

What does one mean from the word "saved", please?
God-Jesus ( as per the concept of Pauline-Christians) was a helpless god:

1. as God-Jesus could not save himself from circumcision when a part of his body flesh/skin was cut off
2. God-Jesus could not save himself from death (as per the concept of Pauline-Christians) when he was put on the Cross*
3. God-Jesus was afraid of the Jews and Romans and met secretly when he came out of the tomb
4. God-Jesus could not ascend to sky from Golgotha before the eyes of the Jews to whom he had promised to show a sign

I for one get that a helpless God-Jesus who could not save himself, cannot save any Pauline-Christians whatever their denomination, please. Right?

Regards
______________
* I don't believe that Jesus died a cursed death on Cross, please

First off let me congratulate you for your logo "Love for All Hatred for none". It's beautiful.

I believe that Christ needed to descend before all things, so that He could experience all things, and be able to understand all things so he could repair and restore all things.

The night before the crucifixion, in the garden of Gethsemane, I believe he started the process, and repeated the experience on the cross of experiencing all things good and bad.

Christ only appeared to believers to preserve agency, kinda like the prime directive in Star Trek. We are sent to this earth to choose, forgetting our being raised by Heavenly Parents as spirits before this life (Rom 8:16) so that we could genuinely choose. God does not force his teachings down our throat's (confused or controlling people do that), nor will he prove to us that He even exists. He follows the "if you love something let it go, if it comes back it's yours, if it doesn't, it never was" philosophy.

Saving is two things, spiritual death (separation from God) and physical death (separation form our bodies). When we're saved we are able to dwell with God in heaven, and we get our bodies back glorified, whole and immortal in the resurrection. I believe that almost everybody will experience this because the prime directive ends right around the resurrection where all truth will be made known to us. We will then KNOW (not just believe or have faith in) God, and that Christ is our Savior. I think the vast majority of people will, at that point, accept Christ and accept (gladly) His saving, and go into heaven. A few, like Satan, after knowing God, will fight against Him, and those will not go to heaven. But they will still get a resurrected immortal body.

 

[Andrew Reil]

Andrew Reil said ^, " I want to understand why Christians do not think I'm saved."

One's above sentence suggests that one does not consider one a Christians while I understand that LDS people officially consider themselves as Christians. Right?

Regards

Yes we do, and I do consider myself a Christian.

 

[cataway]

My understanding of what my church teaches is that there is a point where the Lord will make your "calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10), until that time I will eventually be saved if I keep following Jesus Christ. I will eventually reach my "calling and election". Jesus Christ is the one who saves me, and asks that I accept and follow Him.

you consider your self to be of the elect ?

 

[Andrew Reil]

Andrew Reil wrote,"they (other Christians) believe Joseph Smith was an evil deceiver"

My understanding is that Paul and Joseph Smith both are at the same level*, they both claim that they had been appointed apostle/prophet/messenger by Jesus not by G-d/Jehovah, nevertheless they both had the same destiny as mentioned in Deuteronomy of false prophets:
Deuteronomy 18:20
20 But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9982/jewish/Chapter-18.htm
Right?

Regards
_______________
*"If Paul was a prophet, Joseph Smith was also a prophet. The evidences that support Paul’s prophetic calling also support that of Joseph Smith."
Parallel Prophets: Paul and Joseph Smith

I do believe that they are both prophets. I believe that Jehovah is Christ, before He was born. I believe that Christ obeys and is one with (in complete agreement with) His Father, and that the Father directs Christ, and that they are both Gods. They are still "one" but not in a trinitarian way, but because Christ has chosen to align His will with that of His Fathers (Luke 22:42).

I don't believe they were false prophets.

 

[Andrew Reil]

Coming from a JW point of view, none of us can assume to be saved just because we say we accept Jesus as our personal savior. We are warned not to 'assume' salvation at 1Cor 10:12

Salvation comes through faith ultimately, but it also comes thru accurate knowledge of Christ and living in harmony with that knowledge. A person who uses a source of information outside of the Bible runs the risk of putting faith in inaccurate information. So, the question we should all ask ourselves is this; is our source of information about Jesus reliable? Does it come from the people who were with Jesus and who Jesus authorised to represent him?

The bible is such a source as it was written by people with first hand knowledge and with authorisation so we can trust the knowledge they provide. Do your beliefs marry up with the teachings of those writers?

Yes. I follow the Bible.

By the way, the Bible (stick of Judah) prophesies the coming forth of the Book of Mormon (stick of Ephraim) , which is written by prophets authorized, guided by and visited by Jesus Christ in ancient America.

 

[Andrew Reil]

do you consider your self saved ?

working on it

I believe if I continue on the path I'm on I will be

 

[Andrew Reil]

you consider your self to be of the elect ?

Hope to, one day

 

[oldbadger]

When you write "Only they are saved" is that just in jest? Because my understanding is that a Baptist would still believe an Evangelical is saved, but may have a slightly "wrong" interpretation of the scriptures.

Not in jest, Andrew. There are hundreds of different Churches and they won't all believe in yours. Some Christians won't even take food or drink with you.
But you might accept all Christians, from Christian Spiritualists to Jehovah's Witnesses to Catholics etc.

Or do you actually mean that some Christian churches believe that Christians form another church is not saved because of differences in theology?

Theology, lifestyle, etc..... yes.

I YouTubed what a Deist is, let me know if I understand it properly: A Deist is someone who believes that there is a God, but that God is not involved in our lives. Is that correct?

True. Look at the back of one of your fingers closely. There are many fine hairs upon it. Select one out and try to keep focus on that one. Were you ever aware of it before? Did you care about it? That's how I perceive that God could not be aware of this whole planet....... far too huge.

 

[cataway]

Hope to, one day

a noble endeavor. if not asked ,have you considered a different possibility? one where the earth is remade into a paradise, no war, no growing old never dyeing at all . a world were Jesus rules the entire earth .