Am I saved?

[Trailblazer]

Wouldn't out be better to be gods robots than our own worst enemy?

It sure as heck would be a lot easier than having to make decisions.

What good is free will when the only good choice is god?

We still have lots of other decisions to make, AFTER we decide to believe in God. We need free will to make those. That is all free will is, the ability to choose. How much of that is predestined and how much is free is another story. I wonder about that often.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It sure as heck would be a lot easier than having to make decisions.

We still have lots of other decisions to make, AFTER we decide to believe in God. We need free will to make those. That is all free will is, the ability to choose. How much of that is predestined and how much is free is another story. I wonder about that often.

I went to a christian chat years, um, cough, years ago. One pro-destination guy told me he rather be gods slave than his own master. It got me thinking free will is just wanting to keep the ability to sin. After that conversation, it made me think people want to keep their egos.

When I started reading The Dharma, it wasn't focused on god but self and mind. It pointed away from god/Brahma and to ourselves. So, free will is good in The Dharma. We need it before and after. Christianity, you have an ultimatum. Once you choose "right" you have free will-but not really. An ideal free will has positive options not one good and the rest with consequence.

Good quote: I rather have a dangerous freedom than a peaceful slavery.

 

[Trailblazer]

I went to a christian chat years, um, cough, years ago. One pro-destination guy told me he rather be gods slave than his own master.

God does not want slaves. That is why God gave us free will. That is also why God does not force anyone to believe in Him, it is a free choice. Not all people can make the choice to believe in God because we all have constraints on our free will owing to a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. God is All-Knowing so God knows what our constraints are and will judge us with justice and mercy. Nobody else can judge another soul because we cannot know their life.

So, free will is good in The Dharma. We need it before and after. Christianity, you have an ultimatum. Once you choose "right" you have free will-but not really. An ideal free will has positive options not one good and the rest with consequence.

The purpose of free will is so we can choose between good and bad actions and thereby become who we will be, mold our character, form our personality. That is all we will take with us when we die and the soul wings its flight to the spiritual realm, so it is pretty important.

God already knows what we will do, before during and after we do it, since for God there is no time, but God does not cause these things to happen, we do. It is kind of eerie to think that God already knows everything that will happen, like a script on a movie reel that has not yet played out. However, if we do not make choices and act on them, nothing will ever play out.

 

[Sleeppy]

So humans are just God's robots?

Time as we know it in this world is measured by the sun but in the spiritual world when there is no more sun this kind of time won't exist anymore.

1) Robot isn't the correct word. Is robot a dirty word, in your mind?

2) God is all-knowing, and all-powerful; this includes past, present, and future.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God does not want slaves. That is why God gave us free will. That is also why God does not force anyone to believe in Him, it is a free choice. Not all people can make the choice to believe in God because we all have constraints on our free will owing to a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. God is All-Knowing so God knows what our constraints are and will judge us with justice and mercy. Nobody else can judge another soul because we cannot know their life.

Its uncomfortable to think of ourselves without free will. We want to keep our individuality so bad. Free will gives you the choice to sin. Without free will, you only live for god. Your choices will not have sin as an option. Your free will will only be set to god.

How would you be a robot if god took away your freedom to sin?

The purpose of free will is so we can choose between good and bad actions and thereby become who we will be, mold our character, form our personality. That is all we will take with us when we die and the soul wings its flight to the spiritual realm, so it is pretty important.

Its not a good idea. We dont need to have the bad to know good. Instead of putting the childs hand over the fire to know pain, dont make the stove short enough for him to reach. If your child is in a playpin, dont put a knife in so he knows next time not to cut hand.

Take away temptation and sin and all have left is god.

What is wrong with that?

God already knows what we will do, before during and after we do it, since for God there is no time, but God does not cause these things to happen, we do. It is kind of eerie to think that God already knows everything that will happen, like a script on a movie reel that has not yet played out. However, if we do not make choices and act on them, nothing will ever play out.

How can god be outside looking in? Thats deism. God is involved in all peoples lives. They just want to keep their egos.

Also, how do you know what god thinks?

It seems you take what you read and use it to speak for god as though god only has a voice in what you read. Does god have his own voice and thoughts you cannot be aware of?

 

[Trailblazer]

1) Robot isn't the correct word. Is robot a dirty word, in your mind?

Then what is the correct word?
No, robot is not a dirty word, but it makes no sense that humans are pre-programmed by God. It is true that we can only do what God KNOWS we will do because God knows everything we will do, but that is not the same as not having a choice. God simply KNOWS what choices we will make before, during and after we make them, that comes with being omniscient.

There is also such a thing as fate and predestination. Irrevocable fate cannot be changed but impending fate can be changed along our life path, according to prayers and supplications and choices we make. The omniscient God knows these will change since God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of things

2) God is all-knowing, and all-powerful; this includes past, present, and future.

True.

 

[Sleeppy]

Then what is the correct word?
No, robot is not a dirty word, but it makes no sense that humans are pre-programmed by God. It is true that we can only do what God KNOWS we will do because God knows everything we will do, but that is not the same as not having a choice. God simply KNOWS what choices we will make before, during and after we make them, that comes with being omniscient.

There is also such a thing as fate and predestination. Irrevocable fate cannot be changed but impending fate can be changed along our life path, according to prayers and supplications and choices we make. The omniscient God knows these will change since God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of things

True.

1) 'Predetermined' is accurate.

2) Because God knows what you will do, before you do, there can be no 'choice' involved. You are going to perform according to what is predetermined.

3) 'Free' Will is a nonsensical idea. What determines your will? Nothing? Spontaneity? -- You yourself deny either of those options, by admitting that God knows all beforehand. Will is not free of God's knowledge, it is the result of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Its uncomfortable to think of ourselves without free will. We want to keep our individuality so bad. Free will gives you the choice to sin. Without free will, you only live for god. Your choices will not have sin as an option. Your free will will only be set to god.

How would you be a robot if god took away your freedom to sin?

If we had no free will we could only do what we were programmed to do, whatever that was. God would not necessarily take away our ability to sin. Our program could be set to God or it could be set to sin.

But none of that makes any sense at all because there would be no reason to traverse this mortal life if we were not here to learn by making our own choices, choosing to love God or live for self. Why would Jesus say the following, if we did not have a choice?

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Its not a good idea. We dont need to have the bad to know good. Instead of putting the childs hand over the fire to know pain, dont make the stove short enough for him to reach. If your child is in a playpin, dont put a knife in so he knows next time not to cut hand.

Take away temptation and sin and all have left is god.

What is wrong with that?

The example of the child is not a good example. We can protect children from danger but once we become adults there are all kinds of opportunities to sin because this is a material world full of fun things to do. It would be impossible to remove those temptations without removing the material world.

How can god be outside looking in? Thats deism. God is involved in all peoples lives. They just want to keep their egos.

Also, how do you know what god thinks?

It seems you take what you read and use it to speak for god as though god only has a voice in what you read. Does god have his own voice and thoughts you cannot be aware of?

I did not say God was on the outside looking in. God is omnipresent but that does not imply that God intervenes in our free will choices, although God can do that if He wants to, since God is omnipotent.

I have no idea what or how God thinks. God has His own mind but it is not like anything we humans can comprehend.

All I know is what God willed for humanity as a whole because Baha’u’llah revealed God’s will.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know its an uncomfortable thought. Id say I like free will because I am unique and to surpress me does worse than being with god. However, if one believes in god, what does it mean to be a robot in the presence of god? From gods perspective not yours.

If we had no free will we could only do what we were programmed to do, whatever that was. God would not necessarily take away our ability to sin. Our program could be set to God or it could be set to sin.

No. Just god would be your source. Your life. Who you are. How you are defined. You can still be human. You just wont have the option to sin. What is benefitial about sin?

But none of that makes any sense at all because there would be no reason to traverse this mortal life if we were not here to learn by makin

Of course there is. I dont need to have seizures to know how to deal with unpredictability. No person with seizures I can think of would want to have epilepsy in order to learn what it means to be healthy. Ive met people in their late adulthood have no illnesses and just going through the aging process. They never spent overnight at a hospital. Never has wires stuck on their head. Never had a chunk of brain taken out.

Illness=sin
Healthy=without sin

We take health for granted. If you have to live with sin to be with god, I cant make sense of that. I wouldnt be a robot ic I never ever was sick. Robot to life?

What is wrong with being only in the presence of god?

The example of the child is not a good example. We can protect children from danger but once we become adults there are all kinds of opportunities to sin because this is a material world full

Its an analogy.

If you have a child in a playpin (you are in life)
And your parent (god) put a knife (sin) in the playpin, you msy cut yourself (tempted to sin). Once you do, you learn pain and wont touch it again.

What you are saying is you rather learn from pain.

If the parent protected you from sin by not putting the knife in the crib (no temptation/no free will), you wont get hurt.

That is the role of a parent. To protect their child by taking then outside danger not give them a gun to protect themselves and then when I tell you, let god guide you, you rather have your gun. Its a catch-22 that can be avoided.

I did not say God was on the outside looking in. God is omnipresent but that does not imply that God intervenes in our free will choices, although God can do that if He wants to, since God is omnipotent.

I said god was outside looking in not you.

Deism is when god does not intervenes. So, since you want free will, god would not intervene. Its a form of deism

I have no idea what or how God thinks. God has His own mind but it is not like anything we humans can comprehend.

I honetly dont know if you guys see it. Believers speak for god all the time.

All I know is what God willed for humanity as a whole because Baha’u’llah revealed God’s will.

I know its uncomfortable to think otherwiss. You dont have to.

God is saying: I give you free will to sin but just because I give you free will doesnt mean I want you to do it.

"God", I say, "then why give me that choice in the first place?"

He says, "so you can disobey me in order to learn how to obey."

 

[Trailblazer]

1) 'Predetermined' is accurate.

2) Because God knows what you will do, before you do, there can be no 'choice' involved. You are going to perform according to what is predetermined.

3) 'Free' Will is a nonsensical idea. What determines your will? Nothing? Spontaneity? -- You yourself deny either of those options, by admitting that God knows all beforehand. Will is not free of God's knowledge, it is the result of it.

How does the fact that God knows what we will do cause things to happen? Unless we are robotically controlled by God we are causing what happens to happen by making a choice to do something. We are choosing to do what God knows we will do. That is my definition of free will.

In brief, we do not have any choice except to do what God knows we will do because what God knows what we will do is identical with what we will do. God knows what we will do because God is omniscient, but God does not cause it to happen, we do. Thus we play out our own script according to what God already knows we will do. God does not play out the script by causing things to happen; we cause things to happen by virtue of the free will decisions that we make and the actions that follow. God knows how the script will play out before it plays out because God is omniscient.

To say that we have no free will is the same as saying that we cannot make any of our own choices, which would means that God (or something else) is making our choices for us. If God is making our choices, that would mean we are puppets on a string, programmed robots.

The fact that God is omniscient and knows what the future will be is not what causes the events to happen. Free will decisions human make cause things to happen. For example, more people were on the road on a certain day so traffic was bad so the bus was late. The fact that God knew that would happen (since God is omniscient) is not what caused it to happen. Peoples’ choices to be out driving caused more traffic, which caused the bus to be late.

God's knowledge surrounds all things, before during and after their existence, but it is not the cause of their existence. It is identical with the reality of things.

God’s knowledge of what will happen in the future does not CAUSE it to happen, not any more than the astronomer’s knowledge of an eclipse causes the eclipse to happen.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

This is your lucky day, so glad that I could bring the good news to you.

HELL DOESN'T EXIST

Seconded.

1. Hell is separation from God. It is sometimes called a fiery furnace, but more descriptively as an Outer Darkness.
2. But separation from God does not really exist. It only appears that way.
   
3. Therefore, inasmuch as one wants to be in the presence of Christ, one is not bound for Hell. If one doesn't, one won't, but Jesus isn't sending you to there (John 3:16-17). You're convincing yourself you want/need/belong there.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No, robot is not a dirty word, but it makes no sense that humans are pre-programmed by God.

Isn't that what DNA is, though? Pre-installed programming?

Our program could be set to God or it could be set to sin.

What if obeying God is a sin in some cases, like being told by God to murder, for example?

But none of that makes any sense at all because there would be no reason to traverse this mortal life if we were not here to learn by making our own choices, choosing to love God or live for self.

Why are they diametrically opposed in your eyes?

Why would Jesus say the following, if we did not have a choice?

Nothing in Peter's characterization in canon or non-canon literature promotes the idea what spurred Jesus' response was out of character for him. Peter is an arrogant coward who thinks he deserves as much credit as Jesus. Not sure I'd call him a tragic figure, but he definitely is stuck with the "jerk" character trope and must act as his trope allows. He remains this way even after Jesus' death. If anyone claims Christianity can transform souls, one only need to point to someone like Peter to show there's a few flaws in that claim.

It would be impossible to remove those temptations without removing the material world.

Perhaps treating the material world like it's a universally bad thing is the flawed premise.

Peter doesn't want to include gentiles into the mission. God rebukes him in a dream. Calling what God created "bad" is a slap in the face, according to the relevant passage.

And yes, I will definitely criticize Creation. However, we are overly fond of labeling every little thing morally when most things are just amoral facets of life.

Knives: Cutting sandwiches = good. Making people fillets = bad.
Internet: Learning = good. Spreading falsehoods = bad.
Sex: Consent = good. No consent = bad.

Etc, etc.

And your parent (god) put a knife (sin) in the playpin, you msy cut yourself (tempted to sin). Once you do, you learn pain and wont touch it again.

I dunno. I have some really stubborn relatives who will do it precisely because you told them not to. Even then, it's not much of a choice, because they are wired for increased impulsivity and no common sense.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't know why it's wrong for god to guide your life in full. You won't lose apart of yourself. You can still do what you want to do, just you have god with you.

If we had no free will we could only do what we were programmed to do, whatever that was. God would not necessarily take away our ability to sin. Our program could be set to God or it could be set to sin.

If you had no free will, you will be with god one hundred percent. Without the temptation to sin, all you have is god.

But none of that makes any sense at all because there would be no reason to traverse this mortal life if we were not here to learn by making our own choices, choosing to love God or live for self. Why would Jesus say the following, if we did not have a choice?

You can make choices, just not among the bad ones; because, the bad ones wouldn't exist. Unless you want them to?

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Quoting scripture doesn't help.

The example of the child is not a good example. We can protect children from danger but once we become adults there are all kinds of opportunities to sin because this is a material world full of fun things to do. It would be impossible to remove those temptations without removing the material world.

It's an analogy.

God/parent
Playpin/Life
Temptation/Knife
Child/People

If there wasn't a knife, the child would never be hurt. He can still play among other toys. He's not a robot. He'd just have the full love from his parents that he wouldn't have if he sinned.

I did not say God was on the outside looking in. God is omnipresent but that does not imply that God intervenes in our free will choices, although God can do that if He wants to, since God is omnipotent.

I know. I said that.

With free will, god does not intervene. When he doesn't, that's deistic point of view. When all of you is set for and by god, it's a personal relationship. It's all about god. Right?

I have no idea what or how God thinks. God has His own mind but it is not like anything we humans can comprehend.

When you say "god wouldn't do this.... god says this... god does that..." to me and many that's speaking for god.

All I know is what God willed for humanity as a whole because Baha’u’llah revealed God’s will.

If you didn't have scripture, how would you know this when you don't know god?

Even Bahaullah. If he knows god one hundred percept, like the trinitarian, what he says is what god says.

So, you're still talking for god but through a prophet. Whatever Bahaullah says, god says; so, it's the same thing regardless.

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't that what DNA is, though? Pre-installed programming?

We still have choices. DNA does not decide what we will do.

What if obeying God is a sin in some cases, like being told by God to murder, for example?

God doesn't tell people that.

Why are they diametrically opposed in your eyes?

They are not diametrically opposed, but if one loves God one will deny self for God.

Perhaps treating the material world like it's a universally bad thing is the flawed premise.

It is not bad, it is what some people choose to do in it that is bad.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know why it's wrong for god to guide your life in full. You won't lose apart of yourself. You can still do what you want to do, just you have god with you.

I see no problem with that either. I hope God is guiding my life.

If you had no free will, you will be with god one hundred percent. Without the temptation to sin, all you have is god.
You can make choices, just not among the bad ones; because, the bad ones wouldn't exist. Unless you want them to?

If you had no free will you could not DO anything. If good choices exist, bad choices also exist.

With free will, god does not intervene. When he doesn't, that's deistic point of view. When all of you is set for and by god, it's a personal relationship. It's all about god. Right?

God intervenes by sending messengers, which is a theistic point of view. When all of you is set by God, it's not using your free will. When all of you is set for God, it's self-sacrifice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you had no free will you could not DO anything. If good choices exist, bad choices also exist.

I don't understand that. There are no good and bad choices in the presence of god.

If I am only in god's presence, and I can worship and do everything for god, and I am not forced because that is something I want to do, how is that depriving me of my freedom to sin? and why would I want freedom to sin?

I don't know anyone who wants temptation to sin; but, they'd give up god guiding them in full, so they can freedom to do something they don't want to do all because they want free will to act on their behalf and not gods?

God intervenes by sending messengers, which is a theistic point of view. When all of you is set by God, it's not using your free will. When all of you is set for God, it's self-sacrifice.

You're not "set" by god without free will. You're just in his presence and no one else. You have no reason to sin (unless that's what you want to do).

I mean, why have heaven when you want temptation to sin so you have freedom of choice to turn from god rather than wanting to turn towards him (not because you are set up but because that is something you want to do)?

 

[Trailblazer]

I know its an uncomfortable thought. Id say I like free will because I am unique and to surpress me does worse than being with god. However, if one believes in god, what does it mean to be a robot in the presence of god? From gods perspective not yours.

It is not an either/or. What God wants is for us to use our free will to choose Him over self.

No. Just god would be your source. Your life. Who you are. How you are defined. You can still be human. You just wont have the option to sin. What is benefitial about sin?

We can choose not to sin. We do not have to sin in order to learn not to sin. We do not need God making that choice for us.

What is wrong with being only in the presence of god?

I do not know what you mean by that.

If you have a child in a playpin (you are in life)
And your parent (god) put a knife (sin) in the playpin, you msy cut yourself (tempted to sin). Once you do, you learn pain and wont touch it again.

What you are saying is you rather learn from pain.

That is how most people learn.

If the parent protected you from sin by not putting the knife in the crib (no temptation/no free will), you wont get hurt.

That is the role of a parent. To protect their child by taking then outside danger not give them a gun to protect themselves and then when I tell you, let god guide you, you rather have your gun. Its a catch-22 that can be avoided.

But it is not the role of God.

Deism is when god does not intervenes. So, since you want free will, god would not intervene. Its a form of deism.

God intervenes by sending messengers. That is theism.

It is not about what we want; it is about what we have. We have free will or not.

God is saying: I give you free will to sin but just because I give you free will doesnt mean I want you to do it.

"God", I say, "then why give me that choice in the first place?"

He says, "so you can disobey me in order to learn how to obey."

Well, maybe. Or we can just obey if we know what God wants us to do. That is why God sends messengers with teachings and laws.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't understand that. There are no good and bad choices in the presence of god.

If I am only in god's presence, and I can worship and do everything for god, and I am not forced because that is something I want to do, how is that depriving me of my freedom to sin? and why would I want freedom to sin?

It is not depriving you, but it is still your choice to sin or not sin.

I don't know anyone who wants temptation to sin; but, they'd give up god guiding them in full, so they can freedom to do something they don't want to do all because they want free will to act on their behalf and not gods?

We all have two natures so we can choose the higher spiritual Godly nature or the lower material sinful nature. God does not choose for us because we have free will. God wants us to choose.

You're not "set" by god without free will. You're just in his presence and no one else. You have no reason to sin (unless that's what you want to do).

I do not know what you mean by being in God's presence and no one else.

I mean, why have heaven when you want temptation to sin so you have freedom of choice to turn from god rather than wanting to turn towards him (not because you are set up but because that is something you want to do)

We should turn towards God because that is what we want to do, not because we have to.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is not an either/or. What God wants is for us to use our free will to choose Him over self.

If god did not give you a freedom to chose, you would be in the presence of god, for god, and with god. You would have no need for sin because that would be unknown to you. Your free will is to do things for god and with god. All your choices will have god in mind.

If god did not give you free will, all you have is god. Your choices would be interrelated with his. Like jesus, you'd be one and the same line with god. Jesus didn't need sin to follow his father. He did so because he was devoted to his father. His choice wasn't because of sin but because of his devotion to god.

Two very different devotional lifestyles: one with sin and one without.

We can choose not to sin. We do not have to sin in order to learn not to sin. We do not need God making that choice for us.

Actually, you wouldn't need to be tempted nor have the opportunity to do so if you only had god.

I don't understand why you'd think god would set you up if he didn't give you freedom to choose. If you didn't have to chose between good and bad, then that's fine. It's still free will. But what confuses me is not the actual free will but the reason you want it: to have the temptation to sin in order to not sin and be with god. That I don't understand.

I do not know what you mean by that.

I live among christians; so, I use their language a lot. Being in god's presence is being in the presence and experience of love and grace. So, basically, you feel grateful and loved all the time because god is always with you 24/7 non-stop. When a christian sins, they break that bond with god. So, they repent to mend the relationship and continue to live with god. That's in his presence. I don't know how Bahai uses the phrase. The dependency on scripture as explanation doesn't help with clarifications.

That is how most people learn.

We should turn towards God because that is what we want to do, not because we have to.

I disagree. When a person does not know god exists, they can't turn their back to him. When someone doesn't want to follow god, they aren't turning their back. They choose to follow what they know is true. If they had to keep feeling guilt for "rejecting god" then that's why you have people upset over indoctrination. If they are constantly told they turned their back to god because that's what they want, then guilt seeps in. It is unhealthy.

I, quote on quote, turned by back on what you call god because I had to. It was hurting my heart and well being. It was living a lie. I was never indoctrinated; so, I never had the guilt feeling of people saying I rejected god or I turned my back or some other nonesense. I followed my heart.

That's what people do. They are healthier and happier because of it. I notice when people become christians, they built a them/us view practically overnight. I don't know how, but its like their language just turns Greek and Roman in a flash.

But it is not the role of God.

I couldnt fine where this comment belong to. We both have completely different views on god. So, for a common foundation to converse, we are opening the possibility what god tells you could be something else. Open ended conversation.

God intervenes by sending messengers. That is theism.

It is not about what we want; it is about what we have. We have free will or not.

If it's not what you want, that's not free will. If it's all about god, then you'd have no free will.

The issue is you want free will to sin. I don't see you being robots by doing what god wants and not what you want. I just don't understand the desire to have temptation to sin in order to learn not sinning. Sounds like a catch-22 or oxymoron of some sort.

Well, maybe. Or we can just obey if we know what God wants us to do. That is why God sends messengers with teachings and laws.

Yes. You can obey. Free will just says "you have a choice to sin". It teaches you nothing unless you sin and learn from it. If you are obeying god and he shows you everything you need to learn, how is sin doing you a favor in learning from god when you can learn so much more from his messengers and god himself?

It is not depriving you, but it is still your choice to sin or not sin.

Yes. Taking out free will relieves me of that choice. I'd be fully with god. That would be a good thing.

We all have two natures so we can choose the higher spiritual Godly nature or the lower material sinful nature. God does not choose for us because we have free will. God wants us to choose.

He doesn't need to chose for you if the option wasn't there to begin with. You chose to worship not to sin.

When I turned away from god, I did so because of my heart not because of sin. God gave me this free will (to make a point rather than something I believe) so I can follow my heart. Yet, given I used the option he gave me, I still did something bad because although the option was there, I wasn't supposed to take it.

It's doesn't make sense.

God: I give you free will to do good or evil
Me: Okay god. I choose good
God: That's perfect!
Me: But you gave me a choice, right god?
God: Yes, choices are good (free will is good)
Me: So, I'm allowed to sin???
God: No, says god, you have to choose me

Me: That's not free will. That's an ultimatum.

And god says: It is what it is.

Are you following me?
Ultimatums (I give you a choice but you have to chose me) are not the same as having free will

I personally would want no free will. At least I'd be with god forever. I don't like having supposed free will but the only option is god even though I have a choice to sin. It's cheating.

 

[Sleeppy]

How does the fact that God knows what we will do cause things to happen? Unless we are robotically controlled by God we are causing what happens to happen by making a choice to do something. We are choosing to do what God knows we will do. That is my definition of free will.

In brief, we do not have any choice except to do what God knows we will do because what God knows what we will do is identical with what we will do. God knows what we will do because God is omniscient, but God does not cause it to happen, we do. Thus we play out our own script according to what God already knows we will do. God does not play out the script by causing things to happen; we cause things to happen by virtue of the free will decisions that we make and the actions that follow. God knows how the script will play out before it plays out because God is omniscient.

To say that we have no free will is the same as saying that we cannot make any of our own choices, which would means that God (or something else) is making our choices for us. If God is making our choices, that would mean we are puppets on a string, programmed robots.

The fact that God is omniscient and knows what the future will be is not what causes the events to happen. Free will decisions human make cause things to happen. For example, more people were on the road on a certain day so traffic was bad so the bus was late. The fact that God knew that would happen (since God is omniscient) is not what caused it to happen. Peoples’ choices to be out driving caused more traffic, which caused the bus to be late.

God's knowledge surrounds all things, before during and after their existence, but it is not the cause of their existence. It is identical with the reality of things.

God’s knowledge of what will happen in the future does not CAUSE it to happen, not any more than the astronomer’s knowledge of an eclipse causes the eclipse to happen.

You're repeating yourself.

1) What determines a 'choice'? Nothing? Spontaneity? What exactly?

2) There's a difference between an educated guess, and knowledge. There's a difference between probability, and certainty. There is no comparison with the astronomer.